Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

[Lacuna Caster]

Why is there even an argument about Shojo acting against Xykon? Shojo knew nothing about him, he even admits as much in strip 290. He certainly doesn't have a proof that Xykon has an interest in the Gates. Heck, even Roy deciding to go to Oracle to carry out Shojo's assignment on the basis that the lich has some plan with other gates is an educated guess at best.

Shojo knows nothing about 'this lich of yours'... up to the point where he meets with Eugene, who told him 'everything I needed to know about you and your party'. It would be fairly stunning if he never mentioned Xykon at any point during those conversations.

There might well be questions about whether Shojo or anyone else knows for sure whether Xykon has plans on the other gates, but that hardly matters to Eugene, who just wants him dead ASAP (possibly with Roy's involvement.) The mere fact that Xykon is a mass murderer who had his goblin minions raiding human territories is already more than enough reason to justify an investigation- and if either the paladins or the Order get a chance to kill him in the process, so much the better.

EDIT:

Lacuna, for the umpteenth time, Shojo specifically calls out why he wont involve the paladins. This is explicitly stated in the comic...

Yes, and for the umpteenth time, I am saying this rationale makes no sense. I'm afraid I don't know what else to tell you, Keltest, I've already covered all your objections in copious and redundant detail.

[Peelee]

No, Caerulea. This is what I, personally have said to these exact same posters somewhere between a few months and a few weeks ago. Literally half a dozen times over in some cases. Which is kind of the problem that I have to deal with.

If your answers weren't accepted then, what makes you think they'll be accepted now?

[Dion]

In essence, there is virtually no part of Shojo's decision to send Miko to kill/capture the Order, or the particular way that he hires them, that actually withstands scrutiny, given all the factors established about resources available to the Guard, the ostensible motives of everyone involved, and how magic works in the setting from later on in the same story.

Ok, I totally agree with you. Every story has logical inconsistencies. This story is no exception.

You provided the solution yourself: The problem you have is that when you read strip 250, with the information available to you in strip 250, strip 250 made sense. Later, after you got to strip 500 or so, looking back and strip 250 doesn’t make as much sense.

The solution to that dilemma is to not look back at strip 250 in the context of strip 500.

I can’t say that’s the best solution, but I never figured out how Indiana Jones rode a submarine to the secret base, either. So I’m not a good resource for solutions.

[Keltest]

Yes, and for the umpteenth time, I am saying this rationale makes no sense. I'm afraid I don't know what else to tell you, Keltest, I've already covered all your objections in copious and redundant detail.

You cant make sense of them. That doesn't mean they make no sense. The logic is there, you just don't want to follow it for some reason.

[Caerulea]

Lacuna, are you arguing that Shojo shouldn't have been a paranoid liar whose lies and deceptions caused Azure city to be destroyed. That because he took actions in character which were not very smart, there is a plot hole? I feel like you are arguing, Shojo should have been smarter and more trusting, and had he been so, the plot would have unfolded very differently. I agree with the latter part, not the former.

Edited to address:

Yes, and for the umpteenth time, I am saying this rationale makes no sense. I'm afraid I don't know what else to tell you, Keltest, I've already covered all your objections in copious and redundant detail.

Shojo doesn't want to involve the paladins because then he would have to do everything above board and following their codes. He does not want to do this, except if it is absolutely necessary which from his viewpoint it is not, so he gets The Order to serve as his personal strike/investigative team against Xykon. Which part of this rational does not make sense?

I don’t understand why you need to convince them?

I am trying to make the world less wrong.

[Lacuna Caster]

Ok, I totally agree with you. Every story has logical inconsistencies. This story is no exception.

You provided the solution yourself: The problem you have is that when you read strip 250, with the information available to you in strip 250, strip 250 made sense. Later, after you got to strip 500 or so, looking back and strip 250 doesn’t make as much sense.

The solution to that dilemma is to not look back at strip 250 in the context of strip 500.

I can’t say that’s the best solution, but I never figured out how Indiana Jones rode a submarine to the secret base, either. So I’m not a good resource for solutions.

Okay, great, fantastic! We are in agreement that there is a logical inconsistency, and perhaps just differ in terms of how prominent that might be or to what extent it disrupts our enjoyment. Thank you for your input, cool beans, totally valid point of view.

...Wow, this is actually rather refreshing. Now, if a few other posters could perhaps stop telling me that everything absolutely is logically consistent, we won't have to drag this out any longer.

[Dion]

...Wow, this is actually rather refreshing. Now, if a few other posters could perhaps stop telling me that everything absolutely is logically consistent, we won't have to drag this out any longer.

I don’t understand why you need to convince them?

[Lacuna Caster]

I don’t understand why you need to convince them?

If someone tried to tell me there is no pen on the table, when I can plainly see there is a pen on the table, then I would be deeply interested in getting to the bottom of why they insisted the pen was not there, regardless of how important the pen itself is. The pen is irrelevant. But the denial of the pen is a major problem.

(For what it's worth, yes, the Eagles are a stupid plot hole, and most Tolkien fans are aware of this. This doesn't mean that Tolkien doesn't have plenty of other virtues that matter a great deal more to most readers, and most Tolkien fans will focus on that.)

[hroþila]

(For what it's worth, yes, the Eagles are a stupid plot hole, and most Tolkien fans are aware of this. This doesn't mean that Tolkien doesn't have plenty of other virtues that matter a great deal more to most readers, and most Tolkien fans will focus on that.)

*does some warm-up exercises*
*clears throat*
*approaches mic*

The eagles are no plot hole.

*prepares to die on this hill*

[Ruck]

I don’t understand why you need to convince them?

I actually don't find it strange at all that a Miko obsessive has spent hours and hours and pages and pages trying to enforce his viewpoint onto others by any means necessary, committed to his own set of facts and logic divorced from reality, and with complete disregard for others while being convinced of his own self-righteousness.

How did Gandalf not know that Bilbo had the one ring right away? He should have had the eagles drop the ring into Mt Doom halfway through The Hobbit.

Stupid plot hole.

Batman not killing the Joker at the end of The Dark Knight because of his code is not what I would have done. Therefore, it is a plot hole.

[hamishspence]

(For what it's worth, yes, the Eagles are a stupid plot hole, and most Tolkien fans are aware of this. This doesn't mean that Tolkien doesn't have plenty of other virtues that matter a great deal more to most readers, and most Tolkien fans will focus on that.)

And other Tolkien fans will point out reasons that make some sense, in universe, for the Eagles not to solve everything:

https://notallwhowanderarelost268.wo...e-looking-for/

[Peelee]

*does some warm-up exercises*
*clears throat*
*approaches mic*

The eagles are no plot hole.

*prepares to die on this hill*

AND MY AXE! I ain't gonna wait for others to start the chorus, I'ma pull out my favorite line regardless.

[Keltest]

AND MY AXE! I ain't gonna wait for others to start the chorus, I'ma pull out my favorite line regardless.

I'll add my shield to this wall.

[Dion]

I would be deeply interested in getting to the bottom of why...

Perhaps you’ll forgive me if I observe that you appear less interested in figuring out why they believe something, and more interested in changing their mind...

[hroþila]

And other Tolkien fans will point out reasons that make some sense, in universe, for the Eagles not to solve everything:

https://notallwhowanderarelost268.wo...e-looking-for/

One refutation that I rarely see but which is much more straightforward is given in The Hobbit:

Bilbo: yo eagle fly us to erebor
Eagle: are u nuts i'm not going anywhere
Bilbo: why not
Eagle: the men on the other side of this river have like bows and stuff

Mount Doom didn't have a conveniently open crater for them to toss the ring into. They'd have to land, but not before having alerted the Nazgûl and other guards, probably armed with bows. The mythological analysis of the eagles totally works as an explanation, but this plain fact should be enough because people crying "Plot hole!" are not likely to be interested in the more metaphysical and religious aspects of the legendarium.

Now, I do think the eagles were overused by Tolkien, but that's different from being a plot hole.

[Caerulea]

I'll add my shield to this wall.

And my bow. It is interesting that now we have the potential to get in an argument about TWO non-existent plot holes. Oh well.

[Keltest]

One refutation that I rarely see but which is much more straightforward is given in The Hobbit:

Bilbo: yo eagle fly us to erebor
Eagle: are u nuts i'm not going anywhere
Bilbo: why not
Eagle: the men on the other side of this river have like bows and stuff

Mount Doom didn't have a conveniently open crater for them to toss the ring into. They'd have to land, but not before having alerted the Nazgûl and other guards, probably armed with bows. The mythological analysis of the eagles totally works as an explanation, but this plain fact should be enough because people crying "Plot hole!" are not likely to be interested in the more metaphysical and religious aspects of the legendarium.

Now, I do think the eagles were overused by Tolkien, but that's different from being a plot hole.

That tends to be my go-to explanation, at least. Eagles are fast, but they aren't exactly subtle. Even the hobbits, notable for their stealth, weren't able to get through Mordor while completely avoiding orcs and Sauron's gaze, Aragorn was acting as a distraction and pulled a lot of the armies out of Mordor, or at least away from Mount Doom.

[Dion]

Also, the eagles kind of seemed liike *****.

Gandalf: take this ring and throw it in the mountain
Eagle: [tales ring to nest] shiny!

[Lacuna Caster]

Lacuna, are you arguing that Shojo shouldn't have been a paranoid liar whose lies and deceptions caused Azure city to be destroyed. That because he took actions in character which were not very smart, there is a plot hole?

Because Shojo is supposed to be more than just a paranoid liar. He's also supposed to be an intelligent governor and chaotic good in alignment.

To be fair, 'Shojo is genuinely senile' was one of my top picks for an explanation a few months back, but the problem is that this isn't just Shojo having a brain-fart. He not only has to make some stunningly poor decisions himself, he has to ignore or forbid better suggestions from everyone around him.

Spoiler

Show

I mean, seriously, does Miko labour under the impression that teleport spells just don't exist? Does O-Chul, the speak-truth-to-power guy with a military background, not ask any perfectly reasonable questions about the tactical wisdom of only sending one paladin to cope with six dangerous perpetrators they know nothing about? Does Sangwaan, whose literal job description is seeing the future, not foresee any hazardous side-effects of sending their most smite-happy paladin on an ostensibly [non-lethal] mission? This reflects almost as badly on the Guard as a whole as it does on Shojo himself, not to mention Eugene, who presumably knows what a Sending spell is.

...why doesn't Miko herself ask these questions? Does little-miss-smite-be-quick, not exactly known for her laid-back attitude and leisurely contemplation, not think that time is a factor when chasing omnicidal evildoers? Is she being actively petty to herself? Is O-Chul, the shining example of all that is noble and self-sacrificing, who takes grisly torture in stride and has actual diplomacy skills, not willing to journey with Miko on a potentially world-saving mission? Is he that petty?

Perhaps you’ll forgive me if I observe that you appear less interested in figuring out why they believe something, and more interested in changing their mind...

I don't know, Dion. I suppose we'll have to see what turns up.

[Keltest]

Because Shojo is supposed to be more than just a paranoid liar. He's also supposed to be an intelligent governor and chaotic good in alignment.

To be fair, 'Shojo is genuinely senile' was one of my top picks for an explanation a few months back, but the problem is that this isn't just Shojo having a brain-fart. He not only has to make some stunningly poor decisions himself, he has to ignore or forbid better suggestions from everyone around him.

Spoiler

Show

I don't know, Dion. I suppose we'll have to see what turns up.

Miko has a horse, Lacuna. A warhorse, even, which is exceptionally big, fast and hardy. On top of that, she's the go-to paladin for long ranging tasks to begin with. Why would transport even be a question?

[Caerulea]

Because Shojo is supposed to be more than just a paranoid liar. He's also supposed to be an intelligent governor and chaotic good in alignment.

To be fair, 'Shojo is genuinely senile' was one of my top picks for an explanation a few months back, but the problem is that this isn't just Shojo having a brain-fart. He not only has to make some stunningly poor decisions himself, he has to ignore or forbid better suggestions from everyone around him.

First, the sending spell suggestion from Eugene. I think Eugene would find it funny to see his son and his team get beat up by Miko.

Second, I think Shojo sent Miko out without consulting many people. The scene in which he does it is devoid of people aside from him and Miko. Miko might have suggested teleport/wind walk/whatever but Shojo
a) Doesn't feel that it is too urgent.
b) Doesn't want to recall wizard boy from whatever he is doing (being eaten by another Roc?)
c) Feels that the resources to quickly move Miko there are better invested elsewhere.
And the Sapphire are guard unconcerned because it gets Miko out of their hair. Maybe O-Chul does speak up, but other paladins say "no really, it's fine. We would rather work on the local monster population. Miko can handle it."

Perhaps you are ascribing too much intelligence to Shojo in this case. That he is skilled at politics does not translate into amazing strategy or forethought. He also seems to prefer plans that go behind people's backs.

The problem with your analogy is that it is not a pen. It is at best a drawing on a paper of a mechanical pencil. You can say it is a pen, other people say it is not. Ceci n'est pas un stylo.

[zimmerwald1915]

He's also supposed to be an intelligent governor

Says who? "Schemer" does not mean "intelligent."

[woweedd]

If someone tried to tell me there is no pen on the table, when I can plainly see there is a pen on the table, then I would be deeply interested in getting to the bottom of why they insisted the pen was not there, regardless of how important the pen itself is. The pen is irrelevant. But the denial of the pen is a major problem.

(For what it's worth, yes, the Eagles are a stupid plot hole, and most Tolkien fans are aware of this. This doesn't mean that Tolkien doesn't have plenty of other virtues that matter a great deal more to most readers, and most Tolkien fans will focus on that.)

To go back to my mention of the Anthropic Principle: There's a reason the eagles don't help. If they did, there'd be no journey for us to read. In the words of Alfred Hitchcock, when asked why people in horror movies don't go to the police: "They don't go to the police because it's dull." Rch has also appealed to this reasoning himself. In the FAq, he notes:
"Q: In Strip #X, why didn't character Y take action Z? If they had done so, they could have avoided a whole lot of trouble.
A: You just answered your own question. The strip is ABOUT the trouble these characters get in; if a tactic would result in an effortless solution to their latest problem, there would be little point in showing it, see?"
Which neatly answers your point about Shojo. If he had killed Xykon in Book 2, there would have been no story for us to read. The Anthropic Principles of Storytelling states "For any given story, there exist basic elements that, no matter how improbable or impossible their occurrence, are required for the story itself to happen. Or there would be no story. In other words, there is no "resolution" without "conflict"." and this is one such example." Like in Harry Potter, if there's an authority figure who is stronger then the protagonists, and could potentially resolve the plot in such a way that they would make the rest of the story moot, they must, somehow, be prevented from doing so, where by incompetence, like in Shojo's case, or by any other factor, such as lack of knowledge, lack of time, or so on. Rigorous consistency, ultimately, doesn't matter as much as a good story. We don't engage with stories on a logical level. That whole Cinema Sins style of criticism not only misses the point, it works, as their videos show, on good na dba dmovies alike, something which shows quite well that, whatever indefinable quality makes a story good, it has little to do with whatever they're measuring. It especially doesn't make sense for a story like this, because the Anthropic Principle is an actual thing in-universe. Tarquin's whole scheme is an exploitation of it. After all, there are certain conditions needed for a story about a lone hero overthrowing an empire to exist, and one of those conditions is that an evil empire exists, has existed for a while, and will continue to exist if no heroes get involved. And all that requires someone to rule the empire, and live like a god for decade just to get killed at the end, so why not him?

[Kish]

I wonder if Lacuna would even slow down, if the next strip featured a glimpse of Shojo's character sheet, with the words "True Neutral" and "Intelligence: 10" showing.

[Peelee]

I wonder if Lacuna would even slow down, if the next strip featured a glimpse of Shojo's character sheet, with the words "True Neutral" and "Intelligence: 10" showing.

Well those would obviously be typos, which would just add to the author's faults.

[Mike Havran]

Shojo knows nothing about 'this lich of yours'... up to the point where he meets with Eugene, who told him 'everything I needed to know about you and your party'. It would be fairly stunning if he never mentioned Xykon at any point during those conversations.

There might well be questions about whether Shojo or anyone else knows for sure whether Xykon has plans on the other gates, but that hardly matters to Eugene, who just wants him dead ASAP (possibly with Roy's involvement.) The mere fact that Xykon is a mass murderer who had his goblin minions raiding human territories is already more than enough reason to justify an investigation- and if either the paladins or the Order get a chance to kill him in the process, so much the better.

You said it yourself - Eugene was talking about Roy and the Order. What could he tell about Xykon besides "he was an evil guy"? Shojo can't afford to hunt a random bad guy without evidence he is involved in the Gate business, and Eugene had no such proof because he knew nothing about Gates himself.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The eagles are no plot hole.

On top of all the other argument already trotted out, they're the cavalry. Arriving at the last possible minute to provide assistance that only they can provide is their job description in any tale that involves them.

Grey Wolf

[Dion]

I don't know, Dion. I suppose we'll have to see what turns up.

I don’t understand this answer. Are you interested in learning from other people why they enjoy the story in the way they enjoy it, so you can understand and perhaps even share that enjoyment?

Or are you interested in convincing people that they’re enjoying he story in the wrong way?

[Ruck]

If someone tried to tell me there is no pen on the table, when I can plainly see there is a pen on the table, then I would be deeply interested in getting to the bottom of why they insisted the pen was not there, regardless of how important the pen itself is. The pen is irrelevant. But the denial of the pen is a major problem.

Here's an alternate metaphor: If you insist that your alphabet soup is spelling out messages that your cats are plotting to kill you, and literally every person you know tells you this is not the case, that there are no hidden messages, and that you are in fact eating chicken soup... even though you can clearly see that your alphabet soup is sending you messages, and it's everyone else who is wrong and crazy, and you just have to convince them... Well, I suppose one way to approach the situation is to try to figure out why literally every person you know is in denial about the clear and obvious messages you are seeing despite the many hours and many words you have spent trying to convince them over many months.

Another might be that you even acknowledge that you could, in fact, be wrong. But then, you seem to think that it's a plot hole that Miko was ever wrong.

[The Pilgrim]

Sure, it's not a strategy that's guaranteed to work (though if Shojo doesn't know the mechanics, he might as easily imagine that Xykon could take months to recover.) But that's not my point, which is that they might never have a better opportunity (and Eugene has been very bullish about using the most gung-ho imaginable, no-kill-like-overkill methods for taking on Xykon.)

The fact that the best opportunity to kill Xykon was while he was regenerating, doesn't means that option was on the table for Shojo.

Eugene did mention at SoD that he spent ten years looking for Xykon and, despite being an award-winning wizard, was unable to locate him. So, Xykon seems to have rather good anti-scrying defenses, even without the Cloister (which was unavailable to him during SoD).

Sure, those are all possibilities. And one might imagine an interesting scenario where Sangwaan, for example, talks to Roy or Durkon about using Xykon's crown and their first-hand familiarity with the lich to boost their scrying chances.

Nice. Unfortunately, Shojo only had Roy and his crown available after Miko drag them to Azure City. By that time, Xykon had already regenerated.

Or where they capture Nale and compel him to Send to Xykon under false pretences to get some information on his whereabouts.

Using Nale to gather info about Xykon was the reason why Shojo accepted to let the Order travel to Cliffport.

Or where they bring Hound Archons/Inevitables to do short-range scouting & scrying and just get lucky.

I'm afraid the fees such creatures would require for their services would make them much less cost-effectives than sending anyone else, like the Order, to do the job.

Or where they dig up some goblin survivors from the rubble of the keep or it's vicinity who happen to know that Xykon had an escape tunnel.

It's Word of Author that Redcloak was the sole goblin who survived the events in DCF.

given all the other witnesses they were evidently able to dig up, why should this be so hard?

Why do Shojo need them? He already has Eugene available, who is someone who knows Xykon first-hand. That's why I gave Xykon a +5 save against the Scrying (second-hand info) instead of a +10 (no info at all). Of course, Eugene could have performed the scrying giving Xykon a +0 to save (as he has meet the subject), but I have discarded him by default given that we already know that Eugene was always unable to locate Xykon while alive, and dead characters don't improve. So it's a proven fact that Eugene's scrying is not powerful enough to do the job.

(Or where, for example, a sufficiently suspicious and overzealous paladin might just leap to the conclusion that of course the nearby hobgoblin kingdom must have been colluding with the Crimson Mantle all along, and that it must be her destiny to avert this threat! I know, pssh, that's crazy talk.)

You mean, the overzealous paladin who killed years ago the last person to leap to the conclusion that said nearby hobgoblin kingdom was colluding with the Crimson Mantle?

The point is that none of these options are ever pursued. No attempt to track down Xykon and Redcloak this way is ever made, because Shojo couldn't be bothered his ass to tell either the paladins or the Order that they need to get on this ASAP.

So, you mean that The Giant must waste a big number of valuable comic panels to discredit any and every theory you come with, most of which make very little sense to begin with or/and are already debunked by information shown in-comic?

Which would be logical, if (A) the Order didn't actually have even worse scouting skills than the paladins

Do they? The Order is led by the sole individual who has ever been able to track down Xykon.

(B) he actually got them on Xykon's trail immediately

No, he got the Order departing to check on the Gates, not to go on Xykon's trail. The Order went to the Oracle to ask about what Gate would be attacked next, not about Xykon's actual whereabouts.

(C) this were mutually exclusive with working with the Guard.

I'd say it actually is, given that the only member of the Guard high level enough to be of use for the Order against Xykon was rather bad at team-working and had already proven uncapable of working with the Order.

What Shojo actually does is waste weeks of everyone's valuable time dragging the Order back for trial in the most needlessly hazardous and roundabout manner he could contrive short of outright ordering Miko to just kill them.

That's your opinion. Unfortunately, up to this point all your proposed alternatives have been found to be more hazardous, costly, and/or with less chance of success, than the one Shojo came with.