Yet another thread on Hilgya's alignment

[MartianInvader]

So it seems like the predominant view on this forum is that Hilgya is Chaotic Evil, with a minority (myself included) believing she's Chaotic Neutral. This is not a thread to debate her alignment generally - I want to focus on something a little more specific.

I think we mostly agree that alignment is a continuum - you can have two Evil people but one of them is more Evil, or two chaotic people but one of them leans more neutral, etc.

I was recently thinking about how Hilgya's "evil level" stacks against other characters of known alignment, and couldn't think of a single known CE character whom she's more evil than, nor a single known Chaotic Neutral charactic whom she's less evil than. Whether CE or CN, she does seem close to the boundary between "Don't tell me what to do" and "Screw you, I got mine".

I'm wondering if others would agree with this view? Whichever side of the CE/CN boundary she falls on, can we agree that she's either the "least evil CE" or the "most evil CN" character we've seen so far? And if not, are there specific characters that serve as counterexamples?

[Rrmcklin]

As you said, there have been several threads basically about this already. And I'm fairly certain we're not supposed to start threads specifically about debating Hilgya's alignment anymore.

[Dr.Zero]

I'm wondering if others would agree with this view? Whichever side of the CE/CN boundary she falls on, can we agree that she's either the "least evil CE" or the "most evil CN" character we've seen so far? And if not, are there specific characters that serve as counterexamples?

If it is about alignment, I can agree with you. But helping you with more characters... I went comparing (under a hint from an other user) her to T and then to B, with some clear results FOR ME.
But
a) I can't help you with a list of CE and CN characters we know well enough to make comparisons. The only CX that I can say to know well are the three from the main cast. To make a comparisons with well known evil character I had to use Belkar (ofc!) and, after a someway related hint from another user, Tarquin (which is L). A character who comes in my mind who is CN is Julia (who is kind of a jerk, afair). Probably that comparison might shred some more light. Said that, comparing her to the two evil dudes I listed above she -at least for me, which brings us to point b)- scored leagues below them.

b) Even there, I'd bet that the comparison would become a mess. "No, this is not as evil as you make it look because...", "Aren't you really comparing this with that, now?" So, I'm not sure that listing a bunch of half-unknown characters might solve anything.

(And I agree about the CN.)

[hamishspence]

a character who comes in my mind who is CN is Julia (who is kind of a jerk, afair).

Actually Julia's TN.

Jenny, Ian, and Julio are all CN though:

Lawful Neutral: Mr. Jones, The CPPD, Kilkil.
Chaotic Neutral: Julio Scoundrél, Jenny, Ian Starshine.
True Neutral: Gannji, Enor, Julia Greenhilt, Vaarsuvius, Mr. Scruffy, Therkla, Right-eye, The Oracle, Hank.
Neutral Evil: Tsukikko, Leeky Windstaff, Pompey, Zz'dtri, Bozzok, Crystal, Grubwiggler, the Snail.
Neutral Good: Lirain, Dorkuan, Kazumi & Daigo.

I'm sure there are others, and some I'm specifically not mentioning.

[MartianInvader]

I though Julia was True Neutral? We know Julio Scoundrel is CN, and I think it's pretty clear he's not as Evil as Hilgya - he's engaged in destruction of property, but not murder.

Also Xykon is Chaotic Evil. I don't think anyone is asserting Hilgya's as evil as he is. Belkar's less clear cut, but he seems more evil to me - he kills for fun, because he's bored, or any number of other petty reasons, wheras Hilgya's killing/attempting killing has always been specifically targeted and for a specific purpose.

[woweedd]

Chaotic Evil.

[Dr.Zero]

Actually Julia's TN.

I though Julia was True Neutral?

You are right. I think that since at some point she didn't help her brother, I classified her CN. Instead she is TN, with jerkass subtype.

[hamishspence]

You are right. I think that since at some point she didn't help her brother, I classified her CN. Instead she is TN, with jerkass subtype.

She did call herself TN in that very same strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html

but it's true that, until The Giant confirmed it, this was just her own opinion.

[2.5 cats]

The last time we saw Hilgay prior to the most recent comic was when vampire Durkon had been killed. Belkar clearly had extremely few hit points, as everyone else was out cold. Had she wanted to, Hilgya could've easily taken down wounded-Belkar and killed or at least robbed the rest of the Order. Instead, with five super-rich individuals at her mercy, she healed them up. I suppose we'll never know what she would've done had she not been aware of the world (including her son) being in danger, but that tips me toward Chaotic Neutral. I'll admit to being very relieved upon seeing the rest of the OotS in good working order at the end of the last comic, as I considered Hilgya doing the Chaotic Evil thing a distinct possibility.

[Dr.Zero]

The last time we saw Hilgay prior to the most recent comic was when vampire Durkon had been killed. Belkar clearly had extremely few hit points, as everyone else was out cold. Had she wanted to, Hilgya could've easily taken down wounded-Belkar and killed or at least robbed the rest of the Order. Instead, with five super-rich individuals at her mercy, she healed them up. I suppose we'll never know what she would've done had she not been aware of the world (including her son) being in danger, but that tips me toward Chaotic Neutral. I'll admit to being very relieved upon seeing the rest of the OotS in good working order at the end of the last comic, as I considered Hilgya doing the Chaotic Evil thing a distinct possibility.

This is an extremely good point.

Sadly, it is similar to a point Roy made about Belkar, to prove that he was not so bad as a team member. (afair)

[hamishspence]

Sadly, it is similar to a point Roy made about Belkar, to prove that he was not so bad as a team member. (afair)

You recall correctly:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html

[Rrmcklin]

The last time we saw Hilgay prior to the most recent comic was when vampire Durkon had been killed. Belkar clearly had extremely few hit points, as everyone else was out cold. Had she wanted to, Hilgya could've easily taken down wounded-Belkar and killed or at least robbed the rest of the Order. Instead, with five super-rich individuals at her mercy, she healed them up. I suppose we'll never know what she would've done had she not been aware of the world (including her son) being in danger, but that tips me toward Chaotic Neutral. I'll admit to being very relieved upon seeing the rest of the OotS in good working order at the end of the last comic, as I considered Hilgya doing the Chaotic Evil thing a distinct possibility.

This is an extremely good point.

Sadly, it is similar to a point Roy made about Belkar, to prove that he was not so bad as a team member. (afair)

Being evil doesn't mean someone has to always take the most evil route possible, and being non-evil (not good, because no one is even discussing that as a possibility for Hilgya) doesn't mean one can't be ruthless.

I could totally see, for example, Haley's Dad or the Gerard totally lotting these people he barely knew (ignoring that Ian would do that to his daughter), but both of them are/were Chaotic Neutral.

Non-evil people can still do evil things, and evil people can still do neutral or good things sometimes.

This isn't even me saying anything definite about Hilgya's alignments, it's just pointing out the inherent flaws in this type of argument.

[Fyraltari]

I could totally see, for example, Haley's Dad or the Gerard totally lotting these people he barely knew (ignoring that Ian would do that to his daughter), but both of them are/were Chaotic Good.

Ian is CN:

Lawful Neutral: Mr. Jones, The CPPD, Kilkil.
Chaotic Neutral: Julio Scoundrél, Jenny, Ian Starshine.
True Neutral: Gannji, Enor, Julia Greenhilt, Vaarsuvius, Mr. Scruffy, Therkla, Right-eye, The Oracle, Hank.
Neutral Evil: Tsukikko, Leeky Windstaff, Pompey, Zz'dtri, Bozzok, Crystal, Grubwiggler, the Snail.
Neutral Good: Lirain, Dorkuan, Kazumi & Daigo.

I'm sure there are others, and some I'm specifically not mentioning.

Assuming you meant "Girard", his whole children-snatching business certainly doesn't strike me as something a Chaotic Good character would do.

[Rrmcklin]

Ian is CN:

Assuming you meant "Girard", his whole children-snatching business certainly doesn't strike me as something a Chaotic Good character would do.

I meant to put Chaotic Neutral for both of them. That was a mistake.

[hamishspence]

Assuming you meant "Girard", his whole children-snatching business certainly doesn't strike me as something a Chaotic Good character would do.

The Giant has specifically pegged him as CN:

What Alignment was Girard Draketooth? To me, he seems textbook Chaotic Neutral.

Yep.

Given that he's been dead for 20 years or more:


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html

it's possible that the kidnapping business was put into place after his death.

[woweedd]

The Giant has specifically pegged him as CN:



Given that he's been dead for 20 years or more:


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html

it's possible that the kidnapping business was put into place after his death.

If I remember correctly, my comment was before that revelation.

[MartianInvader]

Non-evil people can still do evil things, and evil people can still do neutral or good things sometimes.

This is the crux of why it's so hard to nail down Hilgya's alignment, and why reasonable people can disagree on it.

Incidentally, *have* there been arguments made that she's more evil than Tarquin?

[Gift Jeraff]

Hilgya is pure Chaotic Evil.

If I remember correctly, my comment was before that revelation.

Nah, your post was a good 3+ years after those strips:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...6&postcount=74
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...cussion-Thread

[Larre Gannd]

In my opinion, Hilgya is evil because she not only has no regard for anyone except her and her kid, which would theoretically be CN, but she also goes overboard with retribution and abuses her magic for profit.

[Aquillion]

What others have said. I think she's very close to the border between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil - selfishness is normally neutral, but she's selfish to the point where it actively endangers the lives of those around her (eg. her attempts to kill her husband before making any attempt to really understand the situation.)

She's not actively, intentionally evil like Xykon, nor a casual murderer like Belkar, nor is she driven to vast, sweeping acts of retributive evil like Redcloak.

Her actions sometimes hurt those around her, often when she's acting for self-righteous or short-sighted reasons; but remember that that alone doesn't automatically make someone evil (Girard was mentioned above; Enor and Gannji were also canonically neutral, and while we don't know if they murdered anyone, they definitely ruined people's lives for profit while bounty-hunting for horrible people like Tarquin, with no real concern for the damage they were doing.)

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to say that Hilgya's alignment is closer to Enor and Gannji, except more Chaotic. I'd say that they're pretty close to the "evil" end of neutral themselves, though. Bringing people in for Tarquin without asking any questions beyond the price is hard to justify. If she's more evil than those two, it would mostly be a matter of self-identification (eg. devotion to an evil deity, possibly.)

Although even by self-identification, "chaotic" is clearly the much more important aspect of her identity. She frames her devotion to Loki entirely in terms of freedom. It's also notable that she's repeatedly cast spells with extremely Chaotic aspects (the anarchic giraffes and anarchic water used for scrying, Protection from Law, etc) and has never been shown casting spells with an 'evil' focus. This implies to me that her Law / Chaos alignment is much more important to her character than her Good / Evil alignment - she's devoted to Chaos and its ideals above all else.

[Rrmcklin]

Enor and Gannji were also canonically evi

No, they aren't. They're both canonically True Neutral. Though looking at the rest of your post, you might have meant to put neutral and just put evil by mistake.

[Aquillion]

No, they aren't. They're both canonically True Neutral. Though looking at the rest of your post, you might have meant to put neutral and just put evil by mistake.

Yes, it was a mistake, oops! I meant to type "neutral", of course, since the point is that them being neutral shows how people could see Hilgya that way despite her doing a lot of horrible stuff and working for or with terrible people.

Well, she hasn't actually done a lot of horrible stuff, really. She tried to murder her husband due to a misunderstanding, she stole from her family, and she killed Durkon, though with the intent to revive him afterwards. Part of the issue with all these discussions is that we don't have much to go on for her. But either way I'd reiterate that the main "focus" of her character seems to be a willingness to do absolutely anything for her personal freedom, which is more of a Chaotic trait than an Evil one.

[Rrmcklin]

Yes, it was a mistake, oops! I meant to type "neutral", of course, since the point is that them being neutral shows how people could see Hilgya that way despite her doing a lot of horrible stuff and working for or with terrible people.

Well, she hasn't actually done a lot of horrible stuff, really. She tried to murder her husband due to a misunderstanding, she stole from her family, and she killed Durkon, though with the intent to revive him afterwards.

A very large part of the issue is whether or not a person define those things as "actually" horrible or not. I, and many others, do. You, and likewise many others, apparently do not.

You can by no means take it as a given that anyone agrees with you on the severity of her actions.

Edit: Though again, I should clarify I'm not even sure we're supposed to view Hilgya as "evil". Someone doesn't have to be capital E Evil in order to be a horrible person, and I am very sure we're supposed to see Hilgya as a horrible person, whatever her alignment actually is. Which is part of why I'm considering it more likely we won't even get a definitive answer on the question.

[Aquillion]

Well, I mean. Do you think we were supposed to view Enor and Gannji as horrible people? They ruin people's lives for money (and since they were doing bounties for the Empire of Blood, they obviously don't care about whether the people they brought in actually deserve it.)

I meant to put the emphasis on "a lot of horrible stuff." Because most of what we've seen about Hilgya is - probably - her at her worst, when she's most pressed. She'll do anything to secure her freedom, but I don't think there's any implication that she murders people constantly.

Whereas Enor and Gannji do that as a matter of course - it's how they make their money. They don't always work for the Empire of Blood, maybe, and sometimes they bring in criminals who actually deserve it, but at no point do they care whether they deserve it. I see them as much worse people than Hilgya. Yes, her self-justifications are weak and she tends to frame things in whatever way is most advantageous to herself and has, on occasion, used that to justify horrible behavior.

But Enor and Gannji make a career out of that sort of thing, constantly, doing it for money, without even the slightest token effort at justification. They're far worse people overall.

(And of course Belkar is far far worse than all three of them combined, even in his current version, but I'll grant that that comparison is a bit unfair because we've seen his character development and are more naturally inclined to be sympathetic towards him. Neither Hilgya nor Enor nor Gannji murder people for fun, though, so it does have to be emphasized how much vastly more horrible Belkar is than any of them, if we're going to simply dismiss people as "horrible.")

To be clear, I'm mostly not interested in dismissing characters as horrible. A horrible character is (usually, outside of a few edge-cases where they exist purely as a tool) a flat character, generally one who's boring and one-note and not interesting in and of themselves. I don't think any of the characters we're discussing here really meet that standard, and I don't think a good writer would devote this much time and effort to a character meant to be dismissed that way.

[Mike Havran]

Is it really established that Gannji (he does all the thinking, Enor just follows his orders) does his bounty hunting without regards to whether his mark deserves it? We only seen them capture Elan, whom they believed to be Nale, and his associates. And Nale actually did all those things like trason, conspiracy and murder (Malack's "children"). Other than that, we seen Gannji refusing an idea of a fraud and siding with Amun-Zora and Ian, and being speciesist/classicist towards mammals.

Hilgya, on the other hand, is perfectly okay with attempt murder of hapless innocent person, casually using lethal force because being pissed, and commiting frauds using magic. Much more Evil in my book, even though there are certainly many other characters in the comic south of her.

[Dr.Zero]

Is it really established that Gannji (he does all the thinking, Enor just follows his orders) does his bounty hunting without regards to whether his mark deserves it? We only seen them capture Elan, whom they believed to be Nale, and his associates. And Nale actually did all those things like trason, conspiracy and murder (Malack's "children").

I think that Aquillion immediately above has adressed that specific point quite well.
Specifically:

They ruin people's lives for money (and since they were doing bounties for the Empire of Blood, they obviously don't care about whether the people they brought in actually deserve it.)

Aside the obvious Evil flavor of the name, that I can concede might be a joke for the readers and might (or might not, since they are self-aware, but whatever) someway be "invisible" to the characters, it's an empire ruled by a Red Dragon with an iron fist. And this might still classify that as strongly Lawful, I suppose.
But it is even a place where, for example, slavery is practiced.
An evil nature that, name aside, should be reasonably deducible by the lack of care for human dignity (of the slaves, specifically, for example)
Begin guilty of treason means basically rebelling. Nale was rebelling for his own evil reasons, right; but a guy like Ian, or a gal like Haley, might rebel for the evil nature of the empire.
More to the point, if Haley was just a regular citizen of the EoB and she freed some slaves, or rebelled to Ms Red Dragon (and her puppeteer), she would have been correctly sentenced of treason and/or rebellion, therefore becoming a valid target for the two bounty hunters because she really did all of that things like treason, rebellion, conspirancy and murder (hell, she killed a bunch of guards in her first encounter with Tarquin, technically she was already guilty or rebellion against authorities and murder).

[Harbinger]

She's Chaotic Evil. Here's a list of clearly evil thing's she's done.

1. working with a group of unambiguously evil people (the Linear Guild) for an unambiguously evil purpose
2. repeatedly attempting to murder her husband, who was by her own admission as much of a victim as she was
3. bringing an infant into battle with vampires when a safer alternative was easily available, risking his death simply because she was too arrogant and paranoid to trust anyone else
4. killing Durkon for rejecting her. Imagine if Elan had rejected Haley and she had shot him full of arrows. Would we be debating if she is evil? Or if Roy had killed Celia? Obviously, unambiguously evil. You might say she is about to Re-Resurrect him, but it's still murder, and she presumably initially intended to just kill him before she found out he was vital to saving the world
5. worshipping an evil god. Technically you can be neutral and worship an evil god by the rules, but imagine what the real life equivalent of this is. Don't post about it, because that'd be against the rules, just imagine it

Not every evil person has to be a mass murdering psychopath like Xykon or Belkar. You can be selfish, petty, and violent on an interpersonal level and, at least for me, that qualifies as evil.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, I mean. Do you think we were supposed to view Enor and Gannji as horrible people? They ruin people's lives for money (and since they were doing bounties for the Empire of Blood, they obviously don't care about whether the people they brought in actually deserve it.)

I mean, I wouldn't object to call them horrible people, but it's also irrelevant. Whether they are or aren't has no bearing on whether Hilgya is or isn't.

I meant to put the emphasis on "a lot of horrible stuff." Because most of what we've seen about Hilgya is - probably - her at her worst, when she's most pressed. She'll do anything to secure her freedom, but I don't think there's any implication that she murders people constantly.

One does not need to murder constantly to be evil, and the way Hilgya addresses and talks about these issues leads me to believe she doesn't needs to be pushed particularly far to consider murder a viable option.

Whereas Enor and Gannji do that as a matter of course - it's how they make their money. They don't always work for the Empire of Blood, maybe, and sometimes they bring in criminals who actually deserve it, but at no point do they care whether they deserve it. I see them as much worse people than Hilgya. Yes, her self-justifications are weak and she tends to frame things in whatever way is most advantageous to herself and has, on occasion, used that to justify horrible behavior.

But Enor and Gannji make a career out of that sort of thing, constantly, doing it for money, without even the slightest token effort at justification. They're far worse people overall.

Survival is justification. Enor and Gannji have a job and they do it, I'd wager because their skillset doesn't really lend itself well to many other areas. It's a job working (at least sometimes) for a horrible empire, but bounty hunting is not inherently evil. We have no basis one way or the other for saying whether the majority of people they bring in are actually guilty or not, or whether they care, but since the Giant doesn't consider them evil, I'd say that's not a thing.

(And of course Belkar is far far worse than all three of them combined, even in his current version, but I'll grant that that comparison is a bit unfair because we've seen his character development and are more naturally inclined to be sympathetic towards him. Neither Hilgya nor Enor nor Gannji murder people for fun, though, so it does have to be emphasized how much vastly more horrible Belkar is than any of them, if we're going to simply dismiss people as "horrible.")

Again, why are you bringing up another person? Yes, Belkar is by far a worse person than any of the three, Belkar being terrible does not somehow preclude the other three from also being terrible.

To be clear, I'm mostly not interested in dismissing characters as horrible. A horrible character is (usually, outside of a few edge-cases where they exist purely as a tool) a flat character, generally one who's boring and one-note and not interesting in and of themselves. I don't think any of the characters we're discussing here really meet that standard, and I don't think a good writer would devote this much time and effort to a character meant to be dismissed that way.

I mean, but it does sound like you are trying to dismiss Hilgya being terrible. Your phrasing of her actions and the needless comparisons to other can only make me think that's you're actual purpose here.

And I'm not dismissing Hilgya as anything. It's not my fault you equate being a horrible person with being a horrible character. I've said that Hilgya is the former, but never claimed she was the latter.

[Dr.Zero]

Again, why are you bringing up another person?

Well, but that is the whole point of a comparison!
We need some milestones to make comparisons.

Yes, Belkar is by far a worse person than any of the three, Belkar being terrible does not somehow preclude the other three from also being terrible.

Anyway, yeah, Belkar is not too well suited for comparisons.

(On a side note, I just had an enlightenment and reached -or created- an explanation of why Terkla is NX and not LX that is satisfactory for me!)

[Mike Havran]

Aside the obvious Evil flavor of the name, that I can concede might be a joke for the readers and might (or might not, since they are self-aware, but whatever) someway be "invisible" to the characters, it's an empire ruled by a Red Dragon with an iron fist. And this might still classify that as strongly Lawful, I suppose.
But it is even a place where, for example, slavery is practiced.
An evil nature that, name aside, should be reasonably deducible by the lack of care for human dignity (of the slaves, specifically, for example)
Begin guilty of treason means basically rebelling. Nale was rebelling for his own evil reasons, right; but a guy like Ian, or a gal like Haley, might rebel for the evil nature of the empire.
More to the point, if Haley was just a regular citizen of the EoB and she freed some slaves, or rebelled to Ms Red Dragon (and her puppeteer), she would have been correctly sentenced of treason and/or rebellion, therefore becoming a valid target for the two bounty hunters because she really did all of that things like treason, rebellion, conspirancy and murder (hell, she killed a bunch of guards in her first encounter with Tarquin, technically she was already guilty or rebellion against authorities and murder).

There is no doubt that the Empire was an Evil tyranny, the question is what alternatives there were. From the names of other lands like Cruelvania and Dictatoria, and the casual description of the state of affairs by the mapmaker, there doesn't seem to be much difference among most states on the Western continent. People need to make a living somehow; orthodox view would be that anybody who doesn't try to rebel against rulers or flee, and provides his services or taxes to the Evil empire de facto conforms to its existence and should be condemned, but that approach lacks any empathy. I consider possibility that Gannji focused on delivering deliquents that he believed deserved punishment to be plausible.

On the other hand, Hilgya seems to live in a predominantly Lawful, non-Evil society, and has/had plenty of alternatives to provide for herself or her kid that aren't appalling.