Erfworld 78, Page 72

[Wender]

No, it wasn't.

Nothing has happened in this comic since this page. Every page since then has, rather than progressing, regressed the plot. The past twelve pages have completely returned the story back to page 1. Stanley is in dire straights, with an overwhelming and unified army pounding down on him, no warlords, no hope, and only flight as an option.

Complete regression of the plot. I can't even begin to fathom why the author chose to do this - nor do I really care. I'm with an earlier poster: this comic only lives because it's riding OotS's coattails.

That's some strange logic.

Stanley stopped Ansom's drive at the goal line, threw a hail mary pass on his third down from his end zone. It was intercepted and returned to his 5 yard line. And that's nothing? Just because the scrimmage is in more or less the same place?

That's development. It's not progress from Stanley's POV (although it is from Ansom's), but it's definitely plot development. Or do you require all of Stanley's tactics to succeed in order to move the plot forward? Or Parson's? Wanda's? I don't get it.

As Jasdoif points out, this is not progress from Stanley's perspective, but is this Stanley's story? He certainly thinks it is, but he's just written that way.

fendrin: If anything, the mood I get from Parson, Sizemore and Stanley is sadness and disappointment. It was looking good there for a little while, and just like that his last city is lost. Or at least it might as well be. Every ending is also a beginning. It'll be interesting to see where this goes.

[Girl Wonder]

No, it wasn't.

Nothing has happened in this comic since this page. Every page since then has, rather than progressing, regressed the plot. The past twelve pages have completely returned the story back to page 1. Stanley is in dire straights, with an overwhelming and unified army pounding down on him, no warlords, no hope, and only flight as an option.

Complete regression of the plot. I can't even begin to fathom why the author chose to do this - nor do I really care. I'm with an earlier poster: this comic only lives because it's riding OotS's coattails.

Wait... two posts ago you complained that nothing happened... then this post you complained that the plot 'regressed.' Which one is it? We're either static or moving, not both.

Clearly, we're moving, just not in a direction you approve of. That's fair enough, a story can't be all things to all people, and you've seemed disappointed for a while. But not moving in a direction you expect or like isn't the same thing as regressing, though it might seem that way from your point of view.

The majority of the posts on the comic seem positive, and the VAST majority seem interested and engaged in what is going on. I've been having a nice spirited debate about the nature of Wanda with several other people. And while I cannot speak for them, I'm certainly not interested in the comic simply because it's on the same page as the OOTS.

As for Stanley being in the exact same position he started in? I would have to disagree. He seems to be much worse off. He has lost three of his junior warlords, uncroaked though they may be, a substantial number of dwagons, many of which were seemingly his best. His sleeper agent (sort of), Jillian, has shaken off the pro-Gobwin-Knob agenda she'd been performing (half unwittingly), his current most competent assistant (Wanda) is in shock, in disgrace, and banished from his presence. The man who likely could become his most competent assistant (Parson) has been denied the opportunity to continue to learn and apply his unique skills to the situation, Charlie has allied with Jetstone, his enemy Ansom shall likely find Jillian to be less of a management problem (though he'll have his hands full in his personal life, I suspect), and the giant force that's several times larger than it needs to be to wipe him out is several turns closer to his stronghold. Therefore, I respectfully disagree that we have returned to status quo pro ante.

In the last, very significant comic, Stanley has seemingly decided to change his entire approach. While this remains speculative, it seems that he is no longer banking on outlasting the coalition in a giant siege battle (as Parson surmised in one of his Klog's). He's taking extraordinary actions by dismissing his general staff, and by ordering the trimancer link broken before his own turn, when they'd be most useful (and, by leaving orders to his remaining field units now, it implies he's not planning on reestablishing it before dawn), he's clearly got something up his sleeve. Stanley has said he must walk the path alone... and that's NOT been his plan up until now, at least as reflected by his actions.

Is he taking the hammer, the dwagons, and however many shmuckers he can carry and getting out? Will he use a caster to veil him for a sudden assault on Ansom, to wrest the Arkenpliers from him? Something else? We don't know, but whatever it is, it will be different than what he'd been planning up until this strip.

Personally, I think he's leaving, which leaves Parson, Sizemore, and a (devastated) Wanda to do their best to save GK. After all, their upkeep's paid in full for as long as the city stands, and while they may lose the hammer and the Dwagons, they've also lost what I see as the too biggest obstacles to Parson's success... Stanley's shortsightedness and Wanda's hubris. In this one strip, we see a shocked and humbled Wanda, and a Stanley who (I think) shall very soon no longer be in Parson's hair to muck up plans or limit his options. True, if Stanley takes one of the trimancers, they lose a lot, but... well, Wanda is an adept of many disciplines, by both her and Sizemore's estimation... could she fill in? Would she?

All of my speculation is just that, and it may be so much meaningless folderol. But it is all deriving from things that happened in this last comic, and if it were truly a comic where 'nothing happened', I don't think I, or my fellow speculators, would have nearly as much to talk about.

[sihnfahl]

In this one strip, we see a shocked and humbled Wanda, and a Stanley who (I think) shall very soon no longer be in Parson's hair to muck up plans or limit his options. True, if Stanley takes one of the trimancers, they lose a lot, but... well, Wanda is an adept of many disciplines, by both her and Sizemore's estimation... could she fill in? Would she?

However, the biggest problem for Parson is GK's air forces - the dwagons have been the only air units shown on GK's side. Without them, Ansom's air forces pretty much have free reign of the skies.

What's left are uncroaked, gobwins, a few twolls, spidews and crap golems; the uncroaked will eventually fall apart, thus exacerbating the problem.

Wanda could fill in... but with all the units in GK and nobody able to get out once Ansom's column surrounds it, all bets on how effective it would be are off.

[Jasdoif]

Personally, I think he's leaving, which leaves Parson, Sizemore, and a (devastated) Wanda to do their best to save GK. After all, their upkeep's paid in full for as long as the city stands, and while they may lose the hammer and the Dwagons, they've also lost what I see as the too biggest obstacles to Parson's success... Stanley's shortsightedness and Wanda's hubris. In this one strip, we see a shocked and humbled Wanda, and a Stanley who (I think) shall very soon no longer be in Parson's hair to muck up plans or limit his options. True, if Stanley takes one of the trimancers, they lose a lot, but... well, Wanda is an adept of many disciplines, by both her and Sizemore's estimation... could she fill in? Would she?

I'm quite positive he's leaving the Overlord position. It's the only situation where leaving potential traitors in high positions over GK would be even worth consideration.

The question is, why doesn't he disband them? It might be Stanley's generosity finally showing, but I have some difficulty believing that. The only alternative I can consider, is that Stanley needs GK to fight. Otherwise, he'd have no reason to keep Parson around; it's possible that disbanding Sizemore or Wanda would take some effort on his part and/or leave them as free units, but he can end Parson with little effort.

The other piece here, is that he yelled at the three of them, but later walked over to the trimancer arrangement to give his order to send all units back and break the link. My guess: He doesn't want Sizemore, Wanda or Parson to know about him breaking the link. Which would make sense if he believes they're traitors. I would surmise that he intends to take a foolamancer so he can be veiled.

So he needs the city to mount a defense, and he needs to be veiled. I can think of two situations that could use this.

Spoiler

Show

One, Stanley is going to sneak out of GK under veil, and the battle at GK will be the perfect distraction, eating up air units' move and likely removing their need to scout.

Two, Stanley is going to hide out somewhere in GK, veiled by the foolamancer, in hopes to take Ansom by surprise in the middle of the battle, and acquire the Arkenpliers that way. Stanley has no great love of strategy, but this is a simple tactic and gets him the Arkenpliers, so it might be right up his alley.

[sihnfahl]

The question is, why doesn't he disband them?

Stanley can't take the treasury with him. GK falls, all the money in the treasury goes to Ansom. With Parson, Wanda and Sizemore still on the payroll, that just sucks down the money that could end up in Ansom's hands.

My guess: He doesn't want Sizemore, Wanda or Parson to know about him breaking the link. Which would make sense if he believes they're traitors. I would surmise that he intends to take a foolamancer so he can be veiled.

He also doesn't want anyone to countermand his orders. He wants all his precious dwagons back in GK so he can mount them up, take the foolamancer, and beat feet, leaving GK and its units to its fate.

He sure as heck doesn't seem in the mood to take Parson, Wanda or Sizemore along with him... or anyone else.

[Jasdoif]

However, the biggest problem for Parson is GK's air forces - the dwagons have been the only air units shown on GK's side. Without them, Ansom's air forces pretty much have free reign of the skies.

What's left are uncroaked, gobwins, a few twolls, spidews and crap golems; the uncroaked will eventually fall apart, thus exacerbating the problem.

Speaking of spidews...we've never seen them up against air units, have we? Maybe spidews can use webs to ground fliers, the way some games' spider units do.

Just a thought.

[Midgititp]

A couple things that do annoy me (at least) about Erfworld as a comic.

Primarily, its slow posting speed. I come to this site to read OOTS and read Erfworld whenever they have another posting. That being said, I know many of my friends tried reading some of Erfworld and told me they simply weren't interested in it.

The other thing is the wild mood swings of the comic, one minute Stanley is about to be victorious, the next minute he's staring defeat in the eyes. This is made worse by the slow posting speed. Its better if you wait a month and then come back and read a whole batch of comics at once, like I'm trying to do.

[sihnfahl]

Speaking of spidews...we've never seen them up against air units, have we? Maybe spidews can use webs to ground fliers, the way some games' spider units do.

Just a thought.

Ansom (and Stanley and Wanda) expected GK to lose with the dwagons defending the city.

That would mean the spidews, while they would do some damage to Ansom's forces, would still fall. Without the dwagons, they'll just fall all the faster.

[Girl Wonder]

A couple things that do annoy me (at least) about Erfworld as a comic.

Primarily, its slow posting speed. I come to this site to read OOTS and read Erfworld whenever they have another posting. That being said, I know many of my friends tried reading some of Erfworld and told me they simply weren't interested in it.

The other thing is the wild mood swings of the comic, one minute Stanley is about to be victorious, the next minute he's staring defeat in the eyes. This is made worse by the slow posting speed. Its better if you wait a month and then come back and read a whole batch of comics at once, like I'm trying to do.

*nods* They aren't doing themselves any favors with the posting speed. Back when it was regularly twice a week, it felt about 'right' for the way they were telling the story, but now it gets in the way. Mr. Balder has stated on a couple of occassions that they're fully awared it's not optimal, but that unfortunately there isn't really anything they can do about it right now. So for now, we take what we can when we can, and hope for better times to come. And if the posting speed bothers you, I think you're wise to take it in larger chunks of once a month or so. I recently went back and re-read it all in full from the beginning, and remarked on these forums that it really -does- flow remarkably better as a story if you take it in all at once, even more than you might expect.

[fendrin]

Ansom (and Stanley and Wanda) expected GK to lose with the dwagons defending the city.

While that's true, I doubt it's because Ansom has a huge amount of air power. He doesn't seem to have many gwiffons left, and the bats and orlys are weak. I'm sure that GK has some archers(or other ranged attack ground forces, perhaps the spidews) that will get their hitsies in on Ansom's flyers.

I think that the biggest benefit from the dwagons would have been to target the hexes of groubd forces doing the most damage to the walls. At least, that would have been the biggest benefit under the original war plan. In other words, they would have been hard hitters who just happen to fly.

Remember, Ansom's plan is reliant on the siege, not the air forces. The Battle for GK will happen (if it happens) primarily on the ground, or under it.

[SteveMB]

Ansom (and Stanley and Wanda) expected GK to lose with the dwagons defending the city.

That would mean the spidews, while they would do some damage to Ansom's forces, would still fall. Without the dwagons, they'll just fall all the faster.

As of now, not quite half the dwagons and the siege units are gone. If Stanley is planning to leave, he'll presumably take the Arkenhammer and remaining dwagons with him.

A wild card is that Stanley might be planning to make his own attack with the dwagons. In view of his track record so far, whatever idea he might have probably isn't a very good one....

[Dwagon]

Although I'll admit Stanley isn't very intelligent, he did rise from infantry to overlord on his own. So he must have some ressources if it's not his brains.

Could be the Arkenhammer + Dwagons only, but the way Ansom put it it seems it might have implied some intrigue and treachery, no?

[ReccaSquirrel]

No, it wasn't.

Nothing has happened in this comic since this page. Every page since then has, rather than progressing, regressed the plot. The past twelve pages have completely returned the story back to page 1. Stanley is in dire straights, with an overwhelming and unified army pounding down on him, no warlords, no hope, and only flight as an option.

Complete regression of the plot. I can't even begin to fathom why the author chose to do this - nor do I really care. I'm with an earlier poster: this comic only lives because it's riding OotS's coattails.

There is more to a story than plot. And furthermore, plot CAN'T regress. Take a good look at The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain. By your opinion of Erfworld nothing has really changed and therefore the plot has not advanced. Well, at the end of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn very, little has changed. Huck and Tom are back where they started with only. Jim is a free man. Nothing has changed in the world.

How about we look at a more contemporary example. In the The Empire Strikes Back, we have the main characters not only back where they started, but doing far worse than they started. However, this was by no means a situation that the plot has regressed. The plot advanced but their situation regressed.

Stories follow what is known as dramatic structure. Short stories have a single use of the the dramatic structure. Longer stories are broken down into multiple uses of the dramatic structure which over the course of the story has one larger dramatic structure to it. Regardless of what happens in a story, as long as the dramatic structure is present, there is plot.

Dramatic structure has five parts to it. There is the exposition (e.g. A man is walking down the street). There is the rising action (e.g. in his hurry, he isn't watching where he is going). There is the climax (e.g. the man trips over a rock). There is the falling action (e.g. the man falls to the ground and skins his knee). And there is the denoument (e.g. the man gets up and continues on his way, now looking where he is going).

Your issue with this story is not plot. Your issue is you disapprove with the current falling action and denouments present in the story. But if you look at the denouments that have taken place in the story thus far, you can see that there has been a lot taking place.

In this comic, you are seeing Stanley reaching a denoument of a part of his story. He is at war with a war party on the way to his last stronghold (exposition). He summons a warlord to help turn the course of events and several battles take place (rising action). The big battle, a gamble using Parson and Wanda takes place in which could change the course of the battle begins (climax). Both Parson's plan fails and Wanda's spell seems to fizzle (falling action). Stanley realizes he must take the course of action into his own hands (denoument).

I see tons of examples of dramatic structure in the story. The character development is phenominal and I'm totally hooked to this comic. Oh, and riding the curtails of OOTS made me laugh. I actually don't come here for OOTS. I like OOTS, but it isn't why I come here.

[sihnfahl]

Although I'll admit Stanley isn't very intelligent, he did rise from infantry to overlord on his own. So he must have some ressources if it's not his brains.

He rose from infantry to overlord by committing regicide. He didn't rise the ranks; he cut off the top and planted himself there. (And with the dwagons behind him, anyone who disagreed would be flambe'd).

A wild card is that Stanley might be planning to make his own attack with the dwagons. In view of his track record so far, whatever idea he might have probably isn't a very good one....

Yup. His ideas are what led to him losing over 10 cities, even with the heavy-hitting dwagons behind him.

He doesn't seem to have many gwiffons left, and the bats and orlys are weak. I'm sure that GK has some archers(or other ranged attack ground forces, perhaps the spidews) that will get their hitsies in on Ansom's flyers.

He has enough gwiffons; only 2 have been confirmed croaked: Jillian's original mount and the one toasted by the red in the lake hex fight. Bats aren't fighters, and the only fight we've seen with the orlies are against dwagons. Oh, and Ansom has pegataurs, too - none lost there. They look like 'heavy' units.
Ansom was expecting a tough, but winnable air battle with Jillian leading. Hitsies, sure, but now, instead of the dwagon screen keeping the air units busy, both ground units and the air units will be assaulting the archers.

[Demonix]

No, it wasn't.

Nothing has happened in this comic since this page. Every page since then has, rather than progressing, regressed the plot. The past twelve pages have completely returned the story back to page 1. Stanley is in dire straights, with an overwhelming and unified army pounding down on him, no warlords, no hope, and only flight as an option.

Complete regression of the plot. I can't even begin to fathom why the author chose to do this - nor do I really care. I'm with an earlier poster: this comic only lives because it's riding OotS's coattails.

An excellent analysis and D'accord.

I think they might be stuck.

[Wender]

The more I think about it, the less likely it seems to me that Stanley will bolt. There is one reason: The Arkenpliers are this close.

GK might be lost, but it's still the most defensible position in the known world. He might have lost many of his dwagons, but he still has quite a few. If Ansom is concentrating his efforts on overcoming Gobwin Knob, his forces will be spread out over the entire perimeter of the city. That would be the best opportunity Stanley has to capture the Arkenpliers in the forseeable future.

If Parson, Wanda and Sizemore have merely failed him, leaving them in place keeps GK on active defense, which keeps Ansom's attention on the city.

A simple but not ineffective plan. The main variable is whether Stanley has the patience to wait for the right moment.

As for Parson, Stanley did want someone "who'll shock and awe them, just standing on the city walls, commanding the fight." Given that the gaming table won't work anymore, Parson will have to command from the walls to see what's going on, and he may yet shock (no stats?) and awe (he's a giant!).

[sihnfahl]

As for Parson, Stanley did want someone "who'll shock and awe them, just standing on the city walls, commanding the fight." Given that the gaming table won't work anymore, Parson will have to command from the walls to see what's going on, and he may yet shock (no stats?) and awe (he's a giant!).

He's as big as Bogroll, though, and the woodsy elves are shown to be bigger than Ansom and Vinnie, who would presumably be as tall as, or taller than, Stanley. "What is that pale, misshapen twoll on the walls? He's HIDEOUS!"

[Aquillion]

No, it wasn't.

Nothing has happened in this comic since this page. Every page since then has, rather than progressing, regressed the plot. The past twelve pages have completely returned the story back to page 1. Stanley is in dire straights, with an overwhelming and unified army pounding down on him, no warlords, no hope, and only flight as an option.

Complete regression of the plot. I can't even begin to fathom why the author chose to do this - nor do I really care. I'm with an earlier poster: this comic only lives because it's riding OotS's coattails.

Er, are you paying attention at all? Several key things have changed.

1. Parson (along with GK's other leaders) is utterly disgraced and left to his own devices. This is huge, probably the main point of these pages, and sets the stage for what happens next. To reach this stage Parson (or his plan) had to be shown failing decisively, in a way that completely cost him Stanley's trust, in a way that implicated Wanda and Sizemore as well; it's not something that could happen in two pages. From the perspective of most of the main characters, things have just changed utterly; every scene that involves Parson, Wanda, or Sizemore is going to have these events hanging over it for the rest of the chapter.

2. Jillian broke from Wanda. Again, this is a key element in both characters' developments that will influence literally everything that involves them in the near future, and will likely lead to some form of denouncement in the long run. Likewise, Jillian declared her love for Ansom, and he rushed in to save her; this changes the established relationships and situations of both characters significantly.

3. Stanley lost half his dwagons, and gave up his ability to easily order units in the field. It is no longer possible to confront Ansom before he actually reaches Gobwin Knob. Again, from a plot standpoint all that had to exist so that Parson, Wanda, et all could be disgraced as in point 1.

4. Numerous more minor things of interest were introduced and explored that may be of importance later on, such as the mechanism through which Wanda's control spells work, the fact that Jillian liked it and the possibility and mechanisms of veiling. We had character development for Ansom and Vinnie, seeing them facing certain doom together, and had Jillian explain her reasons for choosing Ansom in detail, while proving us with background on her and Stanley that we didn't have before. We know that Misty, one of the few people in Erfworld Parson has been able to talk to meaningfully, is about to be freed from her link. These are a lot of things to reveal in just 12 pages.

Things haven't changed greatly from a game standpoint, aside from Ansom getting closer, many Dwagons dying, Wanda's hold on Jillian breaking, Stanley giving up his table, Parson's command possibly being terminated, and... well, ok, maybe there have been some changes there, but yes, Ansom is still winning. From a character development standpoint, though, more has happened in these pages than happened in the entire rest of the comic.

The real problem people have is that this is written like a comic book or a visual novel, not like a normal webcomic. If you were reading this from the printed version, you would have flipped through these 12 pages in about ten to twenty minutes, at most, and would now be reading the resolution. Most webcomics rush things, trying to cram a major plot development (or at least a punchline) into every single page to keep their audience happy; pages are written to stand on their own for several days at a time. This comic isn't written like that; it's written the way you'd write a book, something that is intended to be read from beginning to end all at once. This can undeniably make it frustrating to get one page at a time.

Re: OOTS' coattails. Well, there is no denying that this webcomic has a lot more readers than it would otherwise because of that; this isn't a comment on the webcomic itself, just a note of the unfortunate fact that, generally, the most important determanent of a webcomic's readership seems to be how old it is and how long it's been updating regularly for. No matter how you feel about Erfworld, there are many, many webcomics that are definitely worse, but who have many more readers just on account of their age. But I think that if you look at it, this comic has a lot going for it overall; it has good art and writing, an interesting setting, and potentally interesting characters. The fact is, though, we're less than 100 pages into it. Of course it's still riding on the coattails of OOTS to an extent; the unfortunate fact is that unless you're a world-shattering genius of webcomics or have something else directing readers to you, nobody could hope to establish a webcomic well enough to challenge the readership of OOTS in less than 100 comics.

Give it time. Heck, you could just go away, then come back when this plot arc is done and read it all at once. You might even enjoy it more that way.

[Girl Wonder]

The more I think about it, the less likely it seems to me that Stanley will bolt. There is one reason: The Arkenpliers are this close.

GK might be lost, but it's still the most defensible position in the known world. He might have lost many of his dwagons, but he still has quite a few. If Ansom is concentrating his efforts on overcoming Gobwin Knob, his forces will be spread out over the entire perimeter of the city. That would be the best opportunity Stanley has to capture the Arkenpliers in the forseeable future.

I agree with you that Stanley's next move will be to make a try for the Arkenpliers, but I think it's better for him to try it on his upcoming turn than waiting for them to come to him. He could take any dwagons still at Gobwin Knob, and (if his control over dwagons because of the hammer is remote) also call the dwagons left in the ring trap to him.

Right now, the pliers are essentially guarded by Ansom, Vinnie, Jillian, a couple of gwiffons, and the Archons. Vinnie said the ring dwagons against all of that, plus bats, gumps, Tarfu and the elves would be an even fight. But in this fight, Stanley would be up a few dwagons (if any) from elsewhere plus himself and his attuned artifact, while the good guys would be down the bats, gumps, Tarfu, and woodsy elves, so it seems, given what's been said so far, that the odds would be in Stanley's favor for winning the fight.

On the other hand, if he waits, Ansom shall be surrounded by thousands of his troops outside Gobwin Knob, and surely they shan't be spread TOO thinly, since they apparently have four times the troops they need to do the job of defeating it. Also, as far as I understand how combat works, unless Gobwin knob is larger than one hex, Ansom will have one-sixth of his forces in each of the hexes surrounding it (minue whatever go through the tunnels), and one-sixth of Ansom's forces are still about four times as many as Stanley's total army (if Wanda's 25 to 1 odds were not mistaken).

I know I'm doing a lot of guessing here, but it seems to me that the pliers are about as undefended as they'll get right at this moment. If nothing else, Parson's plan has achieved that for Stanley, and my guess is it is an opportunity he is about to try to take advantage of.

There! My first ever 'strategy' post! My head hurts... back to character next time... that's more fun for me

[SteveMB]

Right now, the pliers are essentially guarded by Ansom, Vinnie, Jillian, a couple of gwiffons, and the Archons. Vinnie said the ring dwagons against all of that, plus bats, gumps, Tarfu and the elves would be an even fight. But in this fight, Stanley would be up a few dwagons (if any) from elsewhere plus himself and his attuned artifact, while the good guys would be down the bats, gumps, Tarfu, and woodsy elves, so it seems, given what's been said so far, that the odds would be in Stanley's favor for winning the fight.

That depends on whether Vinny's analysis was based on just the ring dwagons or on all the dwagons (including the wounded dwagons that are out there somewhere, which would be back at full hits on Stanley's turn). If it's the latter, Stanley's force would be a lot weaker than Vinny was anticipating.

That said, Stanley might go for it anyway, given the circumstances (it really does look like his last chance) and his declared decision to "walk this path alone".

The key question is how many gwiffons survived. If it's enough for everybody to have a ride, they should be able to return to the column this turn*. If not, they're stuck. (Shifting back to "character" mode, I don't think any of them would be willing to return to the column and leave others behind.)


*Tactical Neepery: Jillian's earlier plan to blow off the hunt, rescue Ansom & Co, and punch through to the column requires that the gwiffons have six move left at this point. Now that Ansom & Vinny are at the lake (and Tarfu probably isn't a real target), six move from the lake can also get them back to the column without engaging the dwagon donut.

Also, terrain might matter; cover (e.g. forest) often provides a defensive bonus in games. If so, that tilts the odds a bit in Stanley's favor.

[fendrin]

I agree with you that Stanley's next move will be to make a try for the Arkenpliers, but I think it's better for him to try it on his upcoming turn than waiting for them to come to him. He could take any dwagons still at Gobwin Knob, and (if his control over dwagons because of the hammer is remote) also call the dwagons left in the ring trap to him.

Right now, the pliers are essentially guarded by Ansom, Vinnie, Jillian, a couple of gwiffons, and the Archons. Vinnie said the ring dwagons against all of that, plus bats, gumps, Tarfu and the elves would be an even fight. But in this fight, Stanley would be up a few dwagons (if any) from elsewhere plus himself and his attuned artifact, while the good guys would be down the bats, gumps, Tarfu, and woodsy elves, so it seems, given what's been said so far, that the odds would be in Stanley's favor for winning the fight.

On the other hand, if he waits, Ansom shall be surrounded by thousands of his troops outside Gobwin Knob, and surely they shan't be spread TOO thinly, since they apparently have four times the troops they need to do the job of defeating it. Also, as far as I understand how combat works, unless Gobwin knob is larger than one hex, Ansom will have one-sixth of his forces in each of the hexes surrounding it (minue whatever go through the tunnels), and one-sixth of Ansom's forces are still about four times as many as Stanley's total army (if Wanda's 25 to 1 odds were not mistaken).

I know I'm doing a lot of guessing here, but it seems to me that the pliers are about as undefended as they'll get right at this moment. If nothing else, Parson's plan has achieved that for Stanley, and my guess is it is an opportunity he is about to try to take advantage of.

There! My first ever 'strategy' post! My head hurts... back to character next time... that's more fun for me

See, you're making a huge assumption here...

do you really think Stanley is thinking about tactics? And if he is, do you really think he's capable of this level of strategic thinking? He's lost 10 cities. How good can he really be??

Of course, it may be that he's been thinking like infantry all this time. i.e, leave the strategy to the warlords. This may be the first he himself has given much thought to strategery. If you think about how he's acting when we first see him, it's actually fairly likely. ("Oh fer- is this about stategy still?")

[ReccaSquirrel]

Hold the phone...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0004.html

Every fourth or fifth walnut he cracks turns into a pigeon.

What if every fourth or fifth unit he slays turns into a dwagon?

[SteveMB]

See, you're making a huge assumption here...

Do you really think Stanley is thinking about tactics?

Stanley's probably thinking about how much he wants to -- excuse me, how much the Titans want him to -- get his hands on the Arkenpliers. The tactical neepery is ourestimation of how likely he is to succeed if he decides to take the direct approach of personally leading his remaining dwagons in an attempt to hit Ansom & Company and take them.

(Hmmm... what if he does get the Arkenpliers, and they don't attune to him? How would he react? Anger? Despair that makes Wanda's current state look like mild disappontment? Rationalizations that make Jillian under the suggestion spell like like a paragon of clear thinking? Outright loss of faith?)

[Wender]

Hold the phone...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0004.html

Every fourth or fifth walnut he cracks turns into a pigeon.

What if every fourth or fifth unit he slays turns into a dwagon?

That would... complicate things for Ansom. S'OK. He needs a little more complication in his life right now.

[Aquillion]

I agree with you that Stanley's next move will be to make a try for the Arkenpliers, but I think it's better for him to try it on his upcoming turn than waiting for them to come to him. He could take any dwagons still at Gobwin Knob, and (if his control over dwagons because of the hammer is remote) also call the dwagons left in the ring trap to him.

Problem: We already know his orders for next turn. He ordered all his units back home and broke the link on his table. Both of these things make no sense if he wanted to make a move for the Arkenpliers next turn (and, given that his remaining dragons are low-move ones, his ordering them back very likely makes it impossible even if he can command them with the link broken, which is highly unlikely.)

[Wender]

Problem: We already know his orders for next turn. He ordered all his units back home and broke the link on his table. Both of these things make no sense if he wanted to make a move for the Arkenpliers next turn (and, given that his remaining dragons are low-move ones, his ordering them back very likely makes it impossible even if he can command them with the link broken, which is highly unlikely.)

Indeed. Even if Parson sneaks back into the situation room first thing in the morning (assuming the guards let him in), neither the 'mancers nor the troops (nor certainly the dwagons) will disobey a direct order from their Overlord.

I offered the opinion elsethread that Parson will be wracking his brain trying to strategize his way out of this, but I'm increasingly wondering whether it will dawn on him that he is rapidly moving from essentially a GM position to a player position. Given that he's used to the sort of absolute knowledge and command of a GM, I'm interested in how he will take that. Is that the best use of his imagination? No, but he's as human as anyone else is, and Wanda isn't going to be there to keep him on point. It's an interesting parallel with Wanda herself.

[SteveMB]

Problem: We already know his orders for next turn. He ordered all his units back home and broke the link on his table. Both of these things make no sense if he wanted to make a move for the Arkenpliers next turn (and, given that his remaining dragons are low-move ones, his ordering them back very likely makes it impossible even if he can command them with the link broken, which is highly unlikely.)

We saw Stanley command the dwagons directly when he took exception to Parson calling his side "the bad guys"; also, he probably had control of the dwagons before he set up the Trimancer arrangement (the former is most likely part of how he came to power; the latter would only be possible after he was already in power).

The question is whether the B (ring) dwagons have enough move to return to GK (as per the recall order) and head for the lake. We know that the faster A (raid) dwagons didn't have the move to make the round trip and conduct the raids (if they could do that, they wouldn't have needed a hiding place). However, moving from target to target isn't an issue; Ansom & Company are conveniently in one isolated spot.

[Aquillion]

We saw Stanley command the dwagons directly when he took exception to Parson calling his side "the bad guys"; also, he probably had control of the dwagons before he set up the Trimancer arrangement (the former is most likely part of how he came to power; the latter would only be possible after he was already in power).

Not necessarily. Those could easily just be the dragons that happened to be in that location (in fact, they had to be--it is really difficult to imagine him wasting move on a stunt like that.) Anyone seems to be able to their command units in their own hex; he just used the Arkenhammer like a rallying cry. Doesn't mean it lets him magically command them any further than he could shout a command.

[SteveMB]

Not necessarily. Those could easily just be the dragons that happened to be in that location

That's what I'm referring to -- when the dwagons respond to the recall order he gave, they'll be at his location. The question is whether they'll have enough move left for him to lead them a strike on Ansom (unknown).

[Dwagon]

The dwagon Wanda rode to uncroak manpower did the round trip probably further away then where they are since the column wasn't as advanced.

In any case, since we don't have the exact numbers, Rob and Jamie could choose any option they want, really :)