The Erfworld Audience Dichotomy

[Girl Wonder]

Hello, this is my first thread ever, I hope it is interesting enough to be worth posting to...

Having just come over from the Strip 71 discussion board, making my usual defense of the storytelling and fondness for the Good Guys, character development, and some jabs at Wanda, I started thinking. While I am about to speak in broad generalizations, the following seems true...

Erfworld is a story that takes place in a game-like world.

Whenever the coaliton 'good guys' are getting the upper hand, the people who focus more on character/storytelling elements seem happier, and the people who focus more on the game/strategy elements get frustrated.

Whenever the Gobwin Knob 'bad guys' pull something off, the people who focus more on character/storytelling get quiet (or, in my case, frumpy at Wanda) and the game/strategy people get excited and full of imaginative conjecture about the next move.

I am clearly in the character/storytelling camp, but I don't think it's 'better', or 'the right camp'. Erfworld IS a Story about a Game, more or less, and both elements are critical.

The point of this thread is that there DOES seem to be a bit of a dichotomy between the two camps. Surely there are people who appreciate both, but given the way I see discussions play out on the boards, I worry that this schism is going to make it very hard for the creators to pull off their original vision. If game elements trump story, one camp gets upset. If story trumps game (as in the most recent, #71 strip), another camp gets grouchy, and more and more it seems the game mechanics people are invested in Parson managing an amazing victory (it would, after all, take some pretty amazing gaming to do that) while the story people, having now been offered up Jillian and Ansom as sympathetic characters to care about, would be pretty unhappy if the perfect warlord whomped them good now that we're invested in J&A's happiness.

I have confidence in the creators to stick to whatever their original vision of the story was, and not be swayed by the back-and-forth argument between the two camps on the boards. That said, I ask my fellow Erfworld readers to pick one side or the other and answer one of the following questions (and if you're really right-down-the-middle, answer both if you feel like it).

Question #1, for the Game/Strategy people
As someone who likes Erfworld primarily for the gaming and tactical elements, and all the cool strategic fencing going on between the sides, how could Parson's side lose the battle for Gobwin Knob/Suffer cataclysmic misfortune in a way in which you could still be satisfied with the comic? (Or, put another way, is there Ansom's side could win without ticking you off?)

Question A, for the Story/Character people
As someone who likes Erfworld primarily for the storytelling and character development, and the nifty dramatic tension between the leads, how could Ansom, Jillian, and Vinnie lose the battle for Gobwin Knob/suffer cataclysmic misfortune in a way in which you could still be satisfied with the comic? (Or, put another way, is there a way Stanley's side could make Ansom, Jillian and Vinnie story-irrelevant without ticking you off?)

I'm just interested in knowing what these ways might be, since I'm starting to see more and more posts of 'If this happens, I'm leaving.' or 'If that happens, I'll lose interest.' Is there a way out of this ever-tangling knot that leaves everybody (well, most people at least) happy?

(And yes, I made the questions Question 1 and Question A on purpose, just to be egalitarian :P)

[SteveMB]

Hmmm... I have something of a foot in both camps. If I had to choose, I'd say I'm more interested in the character/storytelling aspect, though if somebody tallied up my posts I think they'd find more tactical-neepery commentary.

As for the questions, I could be satisfied with a victory by either side, if it leaves some openings for future stories and preferably leaves most of the main characters around to participate in them. If Team Stanley loses GK, but manages to "take the Arkenhammer and get out", that sets up a whole range of possible comeback attempts. If Team Stanley manages to turn back the invasion even now, it's just a matter of avoiding a "second verse, same as the first" rematch.

(That said, it's always possible for future stories to pick up some entirely different scene and characters.)

One other observation:

it seems the game mechanics people are invested in Parson managing an amazing victory (it would, after all, take some pretty amazing gaming to do that)

That might shift if Ansom has to start coming up with some good gaming of his own to counter Parson, after he learns what he's up against and realizes that, yes, Virginia, it is possible that the enemy "played us, and good". He does seem to have that potential, once he gets over the bad habit of underestimating (OK, when Stanley was in charge that might be "correctly estimating", but still...) the enemy.

[Halfpunch]

I'm going to go ahead and answer both of your questions, as I believe I find equal enjoyment in both the game (mechanics) and character (emotional) elements of the story to date.

(Answers spoilerized to satisfy ag30476's recent statements)

Answer #1

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I would be happy as long as Parson continues to be the protagonist of the story. His juxtaposition in Erfworld is the font for much of my enjoyment of the strip to date. If GK falls and Team Tool (minus Parson) croaks, yet Parson finds a higher calling in Erf I will not mourn the loss too terribly. Though Wanda and Sizemore are particularly well developed and likeable characters for me.

Answer A

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The Arkentools! What if the Tool turns out to be right? What if he IS a true tool of the Titans, on a divine quest to recover the Arkentools. The means may well justify the end, if reuniting the Arkentools is vital to the survival of Erfworld. I'm sure even a croaked Ansom would not belabour his sacrice if this was the cast.

[ag30476]

[QUOTE=Girl Wonder;3187032]

The point of this thread is that there DOES seem to be a bit of a dichotomy between the two camps. Surely there are people who appreciate both, but given the way I see discussions play out on the boards, I worry that this schism is going to make it very hard for the creators to pull off their original vision.

Why? Seems like a perfect setup to upset everyone. Option 3!

If game elements trump story, one camp gets upset. If story trumps game (as in the most recent, #71 strip), another camp gets grouchy, and more and more it seems the game mechanics people are invested in Parson managing an amazing victory (it would, after all, take some pretty amazing gaming to do that) while the story people, having now been offered up Jillian and Ansom as sympathetic characters to care about, would be pretty unhappy if the perfect warlord whomped them good now that we're invested in J&A's happiness.

I have confidence in the creators to stick to whatever their original vision of the story was, and not be swayed by the back-and-forth argument between the two camps on the boards.

He, I think Rob and Jamie are manipulating both camps quite cleverly. The trick is to...like it.

That said, I ask my fellow Erfworld readers to pick one side or the other and answer one of the following questions (and if you're really right-down-the-middle, answer both if you feel like it).

Is it kinky if I like both Story and Mechanics?

Question #1, for the Game/Strategy people
As someone who likes Erfworld primarily for the gaming and tactical elements, and all the cool strategic fencing going on between the sides, how could Parson's side lose the battle for Gobwin Knob/Suffer cataclysmic misfortune in a way in which you could still be satisfied with the comic? (Or, put another way, is there Ansom's side could win without ticking you off?)

Heh, a Rob and Jamie's clever bit here is that Stanley will win by not winning.

Spoiler

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The dwagons lose but Stanley gets the Arkenpliers.

Question A, for the Story/Character people
As someone who likes Erfworld primarily for the storytelling and character development, and the nifty dramatic tension between the leads, how could Ansom, Jillian, and Vinnie lose the battle for Gobwin Knob/suffer cataclysmic misfortune in a way in which you could still be satisfied with the comic? (Or, put another way, is there a way Stanley's side could make Ansom, Jillian and Vinnie story-irrelevant without ticking you off?)

Likewise

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Ansom, Jillian, and Vinnie could have major personal upheavals like Jillian turning on Ansom for ex which make Stanley win. But the story people will be satisfied with the catharsis.

I'm just interested in knowing what these ways might be, since I'm starting to see more and more posts of 'If this happens, I'm leaving.' or 'If that happens, I'll lose interest.' Is there a way out of this ever-tangling knot that leaves everybody (well, most people at least) happy?

Happiness, especially in readers who complain to a forum about your web comic, is over-valued.

Nice post, yours.

[ag30476]

(Answers spoilerized to satisfy ag30476's recent statements)

Thank you for spoiling and I'm in total agreement with all the vile, unholy and not to mention, unspeakable, things you said.

[xKiv]

I get frustrated when nothing happens that would seem to justify the wait, but I, too, still enjoy both the gaming and the story. The gaming a little bit more, though, so only one answer:

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#1: get pushed into a position when they have to begin completly from nil - right now, they are facing their "ultimate boss", after this prologue (and the inevitable non-game-over defeat - how many RPGs do you know that start with the party being defeated?) they can go on through the newbie area, 1st level quests, and so on :)

Edit: spoilerized, because after I posted, I noticed in other's ninjaing posts that I should.

[JazzManJim]

Question #1, for the Game/Strategy people
As someone who likes Erfworld primarily for the gaming and tactical elements, and all the cool strategic fencing going on between the sides, how could Parson's side lose the battle for Gobwin Knob/Suffer cataclysmic misfortune in a way in which you could still be satisfied with the comic? (Or, put another way, is there Ansom's side could win without ticking you off?)

You seem to be assuming that the Game/Strategy people want Parson's side to win, which is not necessarily the case.

I'd be willing to bet that what Game/Strategy people want is some consistency. They don't want to see the rules of the game change every single comic. They need a little time with a steady rule set to assimilate what they know so their brain is ready to accept more. Keep dumping capricious change upon capricious change on them and they're not goign to see the game as one of strategy but as one of unseeable potholes into which you can fall at any time, without any warning. In other words, the game will no longer be a strategy game but one of pure dumb luck.

[Krellen]

You seem to be assuming that the Game/Strategy people want Parson's side to win, which is not necessarily the case.

She also assumes the character/story people find Ansom and/or Jillian to be more interesting characters - and thus more sympathetic - than Parson and/or Wanda. I find this claim rather presumptuous; she insinuates that someone that likes Stanley's side and wants to see it have a victory is interested in game mechanics over story, and one who likes Ansom's side and wants to see it have a victory is interested in story over game mechanics. It goes both ways: mechanics people can like Ansom, and story people can like Stanley.

[ag30476]

She also assumes the character/story people find Ansom and/or Jillian to be more interesting characters - and thus more sympathetic - than Parson and/or Wanda. I find this claim rather presumptuous; she insinuates that someone that likes Stanley's side and wants to see it have a victory is interested in game mechanics over story, and one who likes Ansom's side and wants to see it have a victory is interested in story over game mechanics. It goes both ways: mechanics people can like Ansom, and story people can like Stanley.

I didn't find her post presumptuous or insinuating at all. Rather nice actually.

And I think it can be said objectively that Jillian is the most sympathetic character not Parson. I mean, wasn't someone complaining that the story has become Jillian-centric instead of Parson-centric?

[SteveMB]

I'd be willing to bet that what Game/Strategy people want is some consistency. They don't want to see the rules of the game change every single comic.

As far as I can tell, everything that has actually been established as a "game rule" has remained consistent. People's assumptions about what the rules might be have occasionally been contradicted, but that isn't the same thing.

[sihnfahl]

Question #1, for the Game/Strategy people
As someone who likes Erfworld primarily for the gaming and tactical elements, and all the cool strategic fencing going on between the sides, how could Parson's side lose the battle for Gobwin Knob/Suffer cataclysmic misfortune in a way in which you could still be satisfied with the comic? (Or, put another way, is there Ansom's side could win without ticking you off?)

It's not being ticked off. It's mostly annoyance.

The best Parson could have hoped for, in the situation he was plunked into, was a draw. GK would be unassailable, but the Alliance would survive. GK's outnumbered 25 to 1. Parson can't take out that large of a force, even with dwagon hit and run.

Before Parson came in, Ansom was going to win. Stanley was planning to scamper off. And the deck was -completely- stacked against Parson.

"I didn't know you could do this!"
"Oh, wait, you can do THIS!? I wish I knew that!"
"... stupid Stupid Meal... incomplete information, it's part of this complete breakfast..."

Parson took the only opening he could (Alliance air cover was out of position). Now it just looks like some sort of 'speed bump' for the train Ansom's running down on GK...

[Girl Wonder]

She also assumes the character/story people find Ansom and/or Jillian to be more interesting characters - and thus more sympathetic - than Parson and/or Wanda. I find this claim rather presumptuous; she insinuates that someone that likes Stanley's side and wants to see it have a victory is interested in game mechanics over story, and one who likes Ansom's side and wants to see it have a victory is interested in story over game mechanics. It goes both ways: mechanics people can like Ansom, and story people can like Stanley.

First of all, I admitted that I was speaking in broad generalizations, and that also people can like both story and game elements. The point of this was not to pigeonhole people or make you feel defensive, though I'm starting to think that might be a lost cause for some, it was just asking people (particularly those who seem to have a predisposition for voicing their frustrations on the weekly strip discussion boards) for ways they could see the story progressing that might not be what they 'want' but would still leave them satisfied on some level.

Yes, I make some assumptions in setting up my question. These assumptions are based on general observations of the boards over the past few months. Because I am making these generalizations and framing the questions based on them, I started this in its own thread. This is a thread where if you see any merit in those assumptions, or just want to play along to offer your input or insight, you are welcome to do so without clogging up the 'main' comic reaction thread.

If you just find the premise of the entire thread absurd, why bother posting here? Just let it run its course and die. I kind of came here looking to start a discussion on people's thoughts, not just more argument on 'who's wrong about what', there's enough of that around already.

Edit: It also just occurred to me that it might be more constructive for me to try to 'nudge' people who attack the thread's premise into responding in a way that doesn't make them have to accept the premise, but still satisfies my original intent of finding out 'what Erfworld-readers want, or can at least accept.', so...

Krellen, I've seen you post often, usually when you are dissatisfied with something that has happened in the most recent strip. You may be the sort of person who just quietly appreciates the parts you like, and only feels the urge to speak up when something disappoints you, but clearly there are parts of Erfworld that frustrate/aggravate you, about which you've posted many times...

In this thread, however, I would be curious in hearing your thoughts from a different perspective, along with others who have, from time to time, expressed dissatisfaction with the comic or elements of it. Regardless of whether you are strategy person, a story person (or like most) some mix of the two, and regardless of which side (if any) you are pulling for in the story, I would like to know what would make you happy, or at least satisfied, even if the side you're pulling for doesn't win? Basically, I'm asking for anti-complaints, sort of? How could the comic do something you didn't expect (and didn't exactly play out the way you might have wanted, ideally) and still satisfy you as a reader? I'm honestly curious, and that's the essence of my post, though I did couch it terms of the dichotomy I see (real or imagined in my fevered head) that seems to drive much of the arguing on the boards.

I'd honestly like to hear your thoughts, and anyone's who wants to consider the questions I've posed, and learn a little bit about what people could live with, rather than just hearing more of what they cannot. Thank you!

[teratorn]

Question #1, for the Game/Strategy people
As someone who likes Erfworld primarily for the gaming and tactical elements, and all the cool strategic fencing going on between the sides, how could Parson's side lose the battle for Gobwin Knob/Suffer cataclysmic misfortune in a way in which you could still be satisfied with the comic? (Or, put another way, is there Ansom's side could win without ticking you off?)

Well, there isn't really a dichotomy, and to tell the truth I'm more a story person. It's just that it's easier to discuss strategy stuff because in a way you can guess it. I "discovered" where the A-dwagons were before they were revealed, while the story has so many twists it's impossible. Ansom made all the wrong choices but got lucky. When you already have a big army having all this luck is unfair.

I hate Ansom and Jillian, they are too damn cute. But as long Parson and Wanda survive I would not mind much Ansom winning this first round.

I'm just interested in knowing what these ways might be, since I'm starting to see more and more posts of 'If this happens, I'm leaving.' or 'If that happens, I'll lose interest.' Is there a way out of this ever-tangling knot that leaves everybody (well, most people at least) happy?

How long have you been following Erfworld forums? People have been saying this kind of stuff from day one. Were you here when Wanda used her charms on Stanley? We had some nasty reactions then.

[Girl Wonder]

How long have you been following Erfworld forums? People have been saying this kind of stuff from day one. Were you here when Wanda used her charms on Stanley? We had some nasty reactions then.

I think that was about the time I began, actually... I believe I floated in on the high-tide of anti-Wanda sentiment that was brewing then, and that may have been the subject of my first post. Just as you dislike Jillain and Ansom because they're too cute, I (and some of the other posters at the time) disliked Wanda because she was 'Too cool, too inscrutable, too fanservice, too much!'. Since that time, she's been less prominent just due to the natural flow of the story, and a lot of the complaints have backed off.

So, there is probably something to what you're saying, for those predisposed to dislike or even hate Jillian and Ansom, the fact that we've been seeing more of Ansom (and a LOT, LOT, LOT of Jillian) makes them more likely to voice their complaints, in the same way I was moved to complain when I felt we were being force-fed an overdose of Wanda.

[Krellen]

How could the comic do something you didn't expect (and didn't exactly play out the way you might have wanted, ideally) and still satisfy you as a reader?

At this point? I have no idea.

If we go back five pages, the answer would be to not have Jillian stumble upon the dwagons. Dumb luck is not interesting - and, in this case, it serves only to make Parson look more foolish and drive home the inevitability of Ansom's victory. Even when things look dark and Ansom is set up to finally face a defeat - a single defeat, not a game-ending defeat, something he has not faced before (we know from the narrative) - somehow, by dumb luck, things go right. Jillian finds the dwagons and the siege is saved.

Imagine you were set up to root for Ansom the whole time and you can see how dissatisfying this would be.

But having Jillian turn on Ansom after her speech wouldn't be satisfying either. She has not been set up as a conniving, double-crossy character like Wanda has. It will seem forced - the "Deus Ex Machina" several people are talking about. Having Ansom trapped over the lake won't be very good either; at that point, the question becomes "So why go through the last ten pages of him thwarting "Stanley's" trap?"

The only thing I can think of at this point that won't feel contrived (a new mechanic that saves Stanley, for instance, would be a contrivance) is giving me a reason to give a damn about Ansom. Up to this point, he's been nothing but a caricature of a shining knight - yes, even including today, and even including the brief moment of despair in the forest. I don't see what anyone finds appealing in him as a character; as an ideal, certainly, but as a character he has, thus far, proven utterly flat. Bogroll has more depth.

[benthehater]

I thought it was a disposition of the GitP forums for the members to fall into fanatical camps of support for their favorite characters in opposition to other characters, and that the OotS fans just kind of brought that behavior to Erfworld.

In order of sympathy/character interest, I go with:

Jillian, Stanley, Parson, Wanda, Sizemore, Vinnie, Ansom, and Bogroll.

Jillian for reasons that have been discussed to death much.

Stanley because I'm very interested in the underlying truths regarding the holy of his holy quest.

Parson because I think he's also representing a gamer archetype that's representative of the gamer subculture, and I watch his behavior closely to see whether he defies or upholds stereotypes.

Wanda because she has secrets yet to deliver.

Sizemore because he's the only person whose going to deliver the kind of information about the world and what this battle really means to us.

Vinnie because he's admitted to having a religious bent, and the fact that he's basically the voice of objectivity.

Ansom because he's not dead yet.

Bogroll because he has some steps to fall down.

On second thought, switch Ansom and Bogroll.

Dunno. I've kind of got the impression that you (GW) think every male with an interest in Wanda's character has to have this interest motivated by the aspects of Wanda that you don't like.

[teratorn]

I think that was about the time I began, actually... I believe I floated in on the high-tide of anti-Wanda sentiment that was brewing then, and that may have been the subject of my first post.

So you missed the posts from the beginning of the strip. There were people joining the forums just to make nasty remarks about how this comic sucked and calling idiots to those of us who liked the strip. That's probably why I got so attached to Wanda, she was the only true character then.

[Girl Wonder]

Dunno. I've kind of got the impression that you (GW) think every male with an interest in Wanda's character has to have this interest motivated by the aspects of Wanda that you don't like.

Urk... this isn't a 'Why I hate Wanda' thread (though I've made posts to that effect as you probably know) or a 'Why I think Wanda is popular with so many people.' thread, either, so I shan't respond in length, only that I believe it is a mischaracterization that I think -every- male with an interest in Wanda's character feels that way because of the same reason or (category of reasons), merely that I believe the character benefits from undue popularity at least in part because of those reasons being present in sufficient quantities to influence 'public opinion', as it were.

Sooo... I'll save further discussion for the 'If Wanda were Walter, Would You Still Think He's Cool?' thread one day (corollary: If Ansom were Andrea, Would You Hate Her Just as Much?)

So you missed the posts from the beginning of the strip. There were people joining the forums just to make nasty remarks about how this comic sucked and calling idiots to those of us who liked the strip. That's probably why I got so attached to Wanda, she was the only true character then.

I sort of expect that's true for lots of new web comics, particularly one that appears in a forum previously devoted solely to a generally beloved, popular one. But I'm not looking here for responses from the 'This sux u suck cuz u like it' crowd. Instead, I'm noticing (again, it could just be perception on my part) more frustrated sentiment from honest-to-goodness longtime followers of Erfworld who are clearly more than just haters or flamers, and I, as a person who LIKES the recent turns the comic has taken, was mostly curious for a look into the mindset of those people who have liked Erfworld in the past, are somewhat invested in it, and are expressing displeasure now.

[teratorn]

Sooo... I'll save further discussion for the 'If Wanda were Walter, Would You Still Think He's Cool?' thread one day (corollary: If Ansom were Andrea, Would You Hate Her Just as Much?)

Can't say about Walter, though I think I like Wanda in part for being a strong female character, a bit as I like Parson for being such a loser in the real world. I hate Jillian as much as Ansom so I'd hate Andrea also (and no, Jillian making out with Andrea would not make her more likable to me).

Instead, I'm noticing (again, it could just be perception on my part) more frustrated sentiment from honest-to-goodness longtime followers of Erfworld who are clearly more than just haters or flamers

Depends, there's also the thing that we thought we understood the game but we are baffled now. But I'm not really frustrated. Rob and Jamie made me believe Jillian was going to bite the dust and then they save her . I'm not disliking the strip but I had such high hopes for this one. But she'll get it, eventually.

[ag30476]

For myself, I've felt the manipulation/appeal of the characters since the beginning. Everyone's experience is different but here's how I remember mine:

Marbits I can taste key lime pie
Wanda meh...
Stanley annoying, evil, insufferable...love him
Ansom eh...
Jillian meh... ok maybe
Parson here's da man PLOT!
Wanda and Jillian ...not that...interesting Wanda the manipulator and Jillian the betrayer
Parson go Parson go
Ansom he's a pushover?
Ansom no he's not
Parson the fights on!
Parson Ansom is a pushover
Ansom the hunt?
Jillain it's all on her
Parson he's not that great a warlord
Wanda evil genius...love her
Jillian she's gonna betray
Ansom doesn't deserve it
Jillain wait she's not gonna betray
Ansom he comes to the rescue after all
Parson he's failed
Jillian everything's gonna work out?

And the next few pages I expect:
What?
No!
Why?
Maybe
Hated it
When is Part II coming out

[Girl Wonder]

For myself, I've felt the manipulation/appeal of the characters since the beginning. Everyone's experience is different but here's how I remember mine:

Marbits I can taste key lime pie
Wanda meh...
Stanley annoying, evil, insufferable...love him
Ansom eh...
Jillian meh... ok maybe
Parson here's da man PLOT!
Wanda and Jillian ...not that...interesting Wanda the manipulator and Jillian the betrayer
Parson go Parson go
Ansom he's a pushover?
Ansom no he's not
Parson the fights on!
Parson Ansom is a pushover
Ansom the hunt?
Jillain it's all on her
Parson he's not that great a warlord
Wanda evil genius...love her
Jillian she's gonna betray
Ansom doesn't deserve it
Jillain wait she's not gonna betray
Ansom he comes to the rescue after all
Parson he's failed
Jillian everything's gonna work out?

And the next few pages I expect:
What?
No!
Why?
Maybe
Hated it
When is Part II coming out

I'm sorry, but I was hoping for a line graph charting positive and negative feelings, date and time stamped at the time of each initial reaction and calibrated up or down based on outside factors that may have been affecting you that day. This simply isn't scientific enough for my purposes, and I'm afraid we'll have to terminate your contract and go with Arbitron.

[ag30476]

I'm sorry, but I was hoping for a line graph charting positive and negative feelings, date and time stamped at the time of each initial reaction and calibrated up or down based on outside factors that may have been affecting you that day. This simply isn't scientific enough for my purposes, and I'm afraid we'll have to terminate your contract and go with Arbitron.

Arbitron? What can they do?

Topline Ratings!
Cutom Rsearch!
TapMedia®!
Arbitron global!!!

Boop I'm booped.

[Tirian]

I am (another) fan of GK who is interested in characterization and storytelling. Well, kinda on both counts. I think that Wanda and Jill are the only two characters worth giving a damn about, because they're the only two who need more than three words to answer the question "What do you want?" I'm interested in learning the answer to those questions over the course of however many arcs Erfworld has, which is probably most of the reason that I hope for Ansom to be defeated and Stanley overthrown and Jill converted.

At the same time, I want these characters to be unveiled in the context of the "science" of the world in which they inhabit, which we are learning about through our observation of gameplay and more specifically through Parson's education. Hey, I'm glad to wonder if Ansom can love someone other than himself as much as everyone, but there have got to be ways of expressing that short of warping yourself and at least one friends into a combat zone in the middle of the opponent's attack phase and stealing initiative. Because once the reader understands that the laws of the world are deliberately esoteric, there's no payoff in dedicating mindshare to thinking "Boy, it sure looks like X is happening in Erfworld."

And it isn't a choice: both character and world are critically important. Erfworld wins because it has dedicated itself to both, and it would be a shame if they faltered on either count.

[Halfpunch]

...<snip>...Depends, there's also the thing that we thought we understood the game but we are baffled now. But I'm not really frustrated. Rob and Jamie made me believe Jillian was going to bite the dust and then they save her . I'm not disliking the strip but I had such high hopes for this one. But she'll get it, eventually.

I think the confusion is a good character development tool for Parson. It's difficult not to empathize with him when he has about as much grasp of the game mechanics as the audience.

I also like that the mechanics are being revealed slowly, in a plot driven manner. It keeps me guessing, surprises me, and most importantly reminds me of the unique setting of the story (i.e. in a game-like-world).

[Krelon]

I started reading Erfworld because of beatuful drawn panels, the peculiar world design and funny dialogues (and things like *PLOT!*)

At the time of the donut of doom when analysis and predictions of strategic movement, feints and counterfeints filled the forum I became hooked with the strategic aspect of the comic. This was so unique compared to all the other 'just-another-webcomics'!

I still like the artwork and the story very much but the strategy part does no longer incite my imagination because as the plot advanced it became less important for the outcome of the story.

Does that make me a 61% strategy: 39% story person? I see me more like 50:50


Question #1, for the Game/Strategy people
(Or, put another way, is there Ansom's side could win without ticking you off?)

Sure, they are 25:1 in strength, so just do it and get over with it. If it is so clear and the outcome cannot be changed, why bother? OK, how do we get to learn the little erfworld guys and their quirks if they don't do anything? But honestly there are so many possibilities that can happen after GK falls which would make me very happy and that I can't wait to see

Spoiler

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chapter two for instance

Question A, for the Story/Character people
As someone who likes Erfworld primarily for the storytelling and character development, and the nifty dramatic tension between the leads, how could Ansom, Jillian, and Vinnie lose the battle for Gobwin Knob/suffer cataclysmic misfortune in a way in which you could still be satisfied with the comic?

In the storytelling I also include Parson, Wanda, Stanley and Sizemore so it doesn't matter which side wins as long as the characters remain both likeable and hateable and interesting at the same time on both sides of the fortifications.

I'd prefer the ones I like to win, but hey, if you know the ending beforehand there's no tension.

[Dwagon]

I'm rooting for Parson. Why? Cause he's the underdog, clearly. I've always enjoyed stories about someone using wits, tactics, strategy and a bit of luck to overcome ridiculous odds and turn the tide in the hero's favor. I've been told I'd love Ender's game, it's probably true.

More so, Parson started out like a pure cynical, I-don't-care-about-nothing but games kind of geek to quickly show compassion and humanity towards Sizemore, Misty and Bogroll. I think his character has a lot of devellopment ahead as the story unravels. I'm looking forward to this.

I enjoy most characters in the plot, on both sides. The only exceptions would be Stanley and Ansom, cause they are both so full of themselves. I just can't stand Stanley's moronism and utter lack of respect for others. And Ansom's just too self-righteous and snob. There might be hope for Ansom, I'm afraid there's none for Stanley.

Where I disagree all hearthly is on the premise that the two sides are static, and that one side needs to clearly win. There are countless scenarios in between that could prove to be very pleasant both for the strategy enclined and the story/character enclined.

Amongst them some have been debated by the forumers already.

- Parson could be attuned to one or several of the Arkentools, revealing the Titans had plans for someone like him. This would most probably not fare too well with Stanley and provided Parson finds a mean to escape from Wanda's spell this could set them once against each other. Or maybe Parson will overthrow Stanley with Wanda's or Sizemore or someone else's help. Would Ansom have the same grudge over Parson than he did over Stanley? Jillian doesn't hate Parson, so would she agree to fight against him? If Vinnie met Parson, wouldn't he befriend him? (I have this feeling Vinnie and Parson could easily be friends).

- Both sides could suffer heavy losses resulting in a cataclysmic kind of draw, changing the entire political landscape of Erfworld. New alliances would have to be forged, new frontiers drawn on maps.

- The arkentools could have a will of their own and influence the outcome of the combat. They may have a secret agenda yet to be revealed. 2 of them have yet to show up. Again, alliances might change because of this, new goals set, change of ennemies, etc...

- Other

In shorts, there's tons of rooms for the authors to surprise us. There are still 4 days of march for Ansom's army to reach GK. Nothing's set in stone. Parson's still not aware of all the possibles, he could come up with some other brilliant plans to delay or even possibly cancel the siege. He's been set back but he's not croaked yet.

What I would enjoy most is that the authors surprise me with something out of the box but still coherent with the world, its characters and its rules. No white, no black, but a clever choice of colours.

[fractal]

I enjoy the story, but I don't have strong preferences on who wins. The authors have shown they know how to write well, I trust they will continue doing so.

The gaming side worries me more. The characters make comments in the story that need to be backed up by the game:

If Ansom's coalition has 25 times the forces of Gobwin Knob, make that clear. Don't let a handful of dragons wipe out a sizable fraction of it in a single turn.

If Parson is a brilliant tactician and gamer, then prove to us he's brilliant. Introduce game rules, and then have Parson take advantage of them with creative and original tweaks. Don't have him do obviously foolish things, and also try not to rely upon unexplained rules to bail him out.

As long as Rob and Jamie stick to both of those principles, I don't care too much which side eventually gets the upper hand. If Parson wins, it will need to explain how he somehow dealt with such a massive material disadvantage. If Ansom wins, it shouldn't be until after Parson has thoroughly proven his skill.

[Bongos]

I enjoy the story, but I don't have strong preferences on who wins. The authors have shown they know how to write well, I trust they will continue doing so.

The gaming side worries me more. The characters make comments in the story that need to be backed up by the game:

If Ansom's coalition has 25 times the forces of Gobwin Knob, make that clear. Don't let a handful of dragons wipe out a sizable fraction of it in a single turn.

If Parson is a brilliant tactician and gamer, then prove to us he's brilliant. Introduce game rules, and then have Parson take advantage of them with creative and original tweaks. Don't have him do obviously foolish things, and also try not to rely upon unexplained rules to bail him out.

As long as Rob and Jamie stick to both of those principles, I don't care too much which side eventually gets the upper hand. If Parson wins, it will need to explain how he somehow dealt with such a massive material disadvantage. If Ansom wins, it shouldn't be until after Parson has thoroughly proven his skill.

They outnumber Gobwin Knob 25 - 1, they have 4 times the amount of forces needed to conquer Gobwin Knob.

First assessment Wanda, Second one is from Ansom.

[fractal]

They outnumber Gobwin Knob 25 - 1, they have 4 times the amount of forces needed to conquer Gobwin Knob.

First assessment Wanda, Second one is from Ansom.

I think we have to assume the 25:1 value is an actual ratio of forces, not just numbers of individual units. Otherwise it would convey no information at all (25 Marbits or 25 Gumps? 1 Dwagon or 1 Gobwin?)

Then that 25:1 ratio translates into four times the necessary forces to take the heavily fortified citadel.

[Justyn]

I think we have to assume the 25:1 value is an actual ratio of forces, not just numbers of individual units. Otherwise it would convey no information at all (25 Marbits or 25 Gumps? 1 Dwagon or 1 Gobwin?)

Then that 25:1 ratio translates into four times the necessary forces to take the heavily fortified citadel.

The Jetstone Coalition outnumbers The Plaid by 25:1 with four times the number of troops needed to take Gobwin Knob. However, Ansom's numbers did not take in concideration the following things:

The Coalition lost about fifty seige engines, amounting to more than fourty percent of their total siege: now I'm not a mathamancer, but this should bring them down from around 125 to somewhere in the vacinity of ninety.

In addition, they have lost: at least four battle bears, many marbits, at least one gwiffin, six orlies, and several stacks of woodsy elves

Stanley has lost: three uncroaked, a twoll, five spidews nine dwagons (two blue, two red, two green, one pink, one purple, one yellow, and two of unidentifed color or colors) and most importantly: two uncroaked warlords (Leeroy Jenkins and Manpower the Temporary).

They have gained Charlie's Archons.

Ansom does not, as far as we know, know about the Eyemancer array. Nor the Mathamancy gauntlet.

Ansom believes that Stanley has no leadership: he now has Parson.

This took a long time to type: I probably got ninja'd.