Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

[Morty]

While it's highly likely that Xykon is going to try to control the gates without involving Redcloak, I really doubt any such attempts are going to involve loopholes in the rules for summoning and creating undead. Doubly so because those rules have already been broken and handwaved away before.

[WolvesbaneIII]

While it's highly likely that Xykon is going to try to control the gates without involving Redcloak, I really doubt any such attempts are going to involve loopholes in the rules for summoning and creating undead. Doubly so because those rules have already been broken and handwaved away before.

undead goblin clerics. just as capable of serving the dark one and perhaps my own interests, but eat less. Problem solved.

Or so he would think, seeing as he knows not of the divine ritual giving the dark one control, but whatevs.

[Synesthesy]

undead goblin clerics. just as capable of serving the dark one and perhaps my own interests, but eat less. Problem solved.

Or so he would think, seeing as he knows not of the divine ritual giving the dark one control, but whatevs.

There are many undead that Xykon can create that would serve him AND that would retain their divine powers? He can't create vampires, after all....

[WolvesbaneIII]

There are many undead that Xykon can create that would serve him AND that would retain their divine powers? He can't create vampires, after all....

He can or can't? I heard that liches can create vampires and now you say he can't. I'll take your word on it, but where can I look this up to fact check this and other things. What all can a lich create in terms of undead?

[RatElemental]

He can or can't? I heard that liches can create vampires and now you say he can't. I'll take your word on it, but where can I look this up to fact check this and other things. What all can a lich create in terms of undead?

Liches have no special undead creating abilities beyond that which a regular mage can create, but being a lich they are probably pretty well versed in the usual necromancy spells. That said, Xykon is epic, and being epic affords you a little more leeway in the undead creation department.

Note the table in the second link. Xykon can make vampires, but he'd have to research and develop a special epic spell specifically to do so. Technically, Xykon could even create other liches under his control, as well as heucuva, eyes of fear and flame, and death knights, as the seed says it can create any type of undead.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Liches have no special undead creating abilities beyond that which a regular mage can create, but being a lich they are probably pretty well versed in the usual necromancy spells. That said, Xykon is epic, and being epic affords you a little more leeway in the undead creation department.

Note the table in the second link. Xykon can make vampires, but he'd have to research and develop a special epic spell specifically to do so. Technically, Xykon could even create other liches under his control, as well as heucuva, eyes of fear and flame, and death knights, as the seed says it can create any type of undead.

ah. so its "possible" that xykon made a lich in order to fool redcloak, but its not a guarantee. Epic magic. So, could he control the other lich, or is it just a mind controlled slave like the zombies? is it a fully free willed servant that happens to be under the mind set of following xykons will?

[Jasdoif]

8-Bit Theater had a moment like that where a character copies a spell that had just made them vomit out their organs, and tries to use it on the original caster...Only to find it wasn't a "make target vomit their organs out" spell, it was a "make one specific person vomit their organs out" spell, that person being them.

Indeed it did. I see the archive arrangement hasn't improved in the past several years....

[Morty]

Whether or not Xykon tries or succeeds in creating an undead cleric to replace Redcloak, I really doubt the technicalities of whether he can do it by D&D rules are going to be a factor.

[Goblin_Priest]

No... just... no...

Both casters need to be high level. Presumably, they need to be able to cast level 9 spells. So, at minimum, you need a lvl17 sorcerer (or wizard) and a lvl 17 cleric (or druid), or one lvl 5/5/10 mystic theurge... oh wait, no, that doesn't even work. It'd only give access to lvl 8 slots from both classes, and 7/3/10 would only give access to lvl 9 slots from one of the two.

Xykon is also ridiculously high-leveled. Him starting to multiclass now, to pick up 17 levels in a clerical class (or 7 levels + 10 levels of mystic theurge)... he'd need to grind this gate for aeons to get the necessary XP, probably. If ever.

Creating an undead minion doesn't work either. At best, he finds an existing high level cleric, and turns him into an undead... Lich? Vampire? Ghost? Something else? In any case, I don't think that minion can both be under Xykon's command, and a follower of the Dark One, receiving spells from him, or instructions from the Mantle. And thus, of no use for the ritual. None of the lesser undead that can be created from any random corpse would be able to cast level 9 divine spells.

Honestly, I think what would have a much higher chance of working, besides Redcloak doing it himself, would be with a very high level rogue that maxed out his Use Magic Device skill, both with ranks, feats, and items (if there are any?). I think you can fake worship with that skill. Then, once you get the knowledge, if it requires specific spells, you can use UMD on the necessary scrolls.

But even that's a stretch.

i.e. nobody else than Redcloak is casting the divine part.

[Emanick]

No... just... no...

Both casters need to be high level. Presumably, they need to be able to cast level 9 spells. So, at minimum, you need a lvl17 sorcerer (or wizard) and a lvl 17 cleric (or druid), or one lvl 5/5/10 mystic theurge... oh wait, no, that doesn't even work. It'd only give access to lvl 8 slots from both classes, and 7/3/10 would only give access to lvl 9 slots from one of the two.

Xykon is also ridiculously high-leveled. Him starting to multiclass now, to pick up 17 levels in a clerical class (or 7 levels + 10 levels of mystic theurge)... he'd need to grind this gate for aeons to get the necessary XP, probably. If ever.

Creating an undead minion doesn't work either. At best, he finds an existing high level cleric, and turns him into an undead... Lich? Vampire? Ghost? Something else? In any case, I don't think that minion can both be under Xykon's command, and a follower of the Dark One, receiving spells from him, or instructions from the Mantle. And thus, of no use for the ritual. None of the lesser undead that can be created from any random corpse would be able to cast level 9 divine spells.

Honestly, I think what would have a much higher chance of working, besides Redcloak doing it himself, would be with a very high level rogue that maxed out his Use Magic Device skill, both with ranks, feats, and items (if there are any?). I think you can fake worship with that skill. Then, once you get the knowledge, if it requires specific spells, you can use UMD on the necessary scrolls.

But even that's a stretch.

i.e. nobody else than Redcloak is casting the divine part.

When Redcloak went after the first Gate, he was like level 10. There's no indication that he was going to grind for like 7 more levels after capturing it and before performing the ritual. I don't think there's any reason to assume you need 9th level spell slots to cast the ritual.

[zimmerwald1915]

When Redcloak went after the first Gate, he was like level 10. There's no indication that he was going to grind for like 7 more levels after capturing it and before performing the ritual. I don't think there's any reason to assume you need 9th level spell slots to cast the ritual.

There are two rituals that often get conflated: Dorukan's and Lirian's Gate-making ritual which requires Epic arcane and divine magic, and the Dark One's Gate-moving ritual which merely requires an arcane and a divine caster of indeterminate level. Probably not too high-level since, as you say, Redcloak was barely mid-level himself when he and Right-Eye partnered with Xykon.

[Goblin_Priest]

The counter-argument is that if mid level was enough, then Xykon wouldn't be nearly as indispensable.

[factotum]

The counter-argument is that if mid level was enough, then Xykon wouldn't be nearly as indispensable.

Redcloak tried to find a suitable level arcane caster among the goblin people and could barely find anyone who could cast a cantrip. Among non-goblinoid people, who would be daft enough to help him out? Plus there's the whole sunk cost fallacy that Redcloak is deeply into--all the stuff he's done for the sake of the Plan

Spoiler

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including killing his own brother in the belief he was saving Xykon

he thinks would be wasted if he goes for another arcane caster at this stage of proceedings, and there's no way he'll do that.

[hroþila]

Just as importantly, at this point he can't stop working with Xykon unless he's ready to fight him openly. By now there are enough browncloaks in Gobbotopia that he might be able to get one of them to the necessary level, whatever it is, but he can't simply dump Xykon.

[Goblin_Priest]

Redcloak tried to find a suitable level arcane caster among the goblin people and could barely find anyone who could cast a cantrip. Among non-goblinoid people, who would be daft enough to help him out? Plus there's the whole sunk cost fallacy that Redcloak is deeply into--all the stuff he's done for the sake of the Plan

Spoiler

Show

including killing his own brother in the belief he was saving Xykon

he thinks would be wasted if he goes for another arcane caster at this stage of proceedings, and there's no way he'll do that.

Well there was Xykon... so if he could trick an epic level sorcerer, why shouldn't he be able to trick a mid-level one? Yea, at the time, he didn't have access to any... at first, anyways...

[WolvesbaneIII]

No... just... no...

Both casters need to be high level. Presumably, they need to be able to cast level 9 spells. So, at minimum, you need a lvl17 sorcerer (or wizard) and a lvl 17 cleric (or druid), or one lvl 5/5/10 mystic theurge... oh wait, no, that doesn't even work. It'd only give access to lvl 8 slots from both classes, and 7/3/10 would only give access to lvl 9 slots from one of the two.

Xykon is also ridiculously high-leveled. Him starting to multiclass now, to pick up 17 levels in a clerical class (or 7 levels + 10 levels of mystic theurge)... he'd need to grind this gate for aeons to get the necessary XP, probably. If ever.

Creating an undead minion doesn't work either. At best, he finds an existing high level cleric, and turns him into an undead... Lich? Vampire? Ghost? Something else? In any case, I don't think that minion can both be under Xykon's command, and a follower of the Dark One, receiving spells from him, or instructions from the Mantle. And thus, of no use for the ritual. None of the lesser undead that can be created from any random corpse would be able to cast level 9 divine spells.

Honestly, I think what would have a much higher chance of working, besides Redcloak doing it himself, would be with a very high level rogue that maxed out his Use Magic Device skill, both with ranks, feats, and items (if there are any?). I think you can fake worship with that skill. Then, once you get the knowledge, if it requires specific spells, you can use UMD on the necessary scrolls.

But even that's a stretch.

i.e. nobody else than Redcloak is casting the divine part.

Well, if a high level cleric is needed, why not kill RC and make him into a controlled undead cleric? All the levels of RC, and he eats less, and also talks less.

[Keltest]

Well, if a high level cleric is needed, why not kill RC and make him into a controlled undead cleric? All the levels of RC, and he eats less, and also talks less.

Besides the fact that pretty much all intelligent undead that powerful are free willed and therefore would require powerful binding magic, its highly unlikely that the Dark One would continue to grant him spells as a mindless minion of Xykon.

[factotum]

Besides the fact that pretty much all intelligent undead that powerful are free willed and therefore would require powerful binding magic, its highly unlikely that the Dark One would continue to grant him spells as a mindless minion of Xykon.

It all depends on whether Xykon would go ahead with the ritual with his enslaved cleric. I think that's more important to TDO than Redcloak's life (or the life of any other goblinoid, for that matter).

[Keltest]

It all depends on whether Xykon would go ahead with the ritual with his enslaved cleric. I think that's more important to TDO than Redcloak's life (or the life of any other goblinoid, for that matter).

Well, yeah, but Xykon doesn't know what the ritual actually does.

[factotum]

Well, yeah, but Xykon doesn't know what the ritual actually does.

He doesn't have any other means of interacting with the Gates as far as we know, so from his point of view he might as well cast it and see what happens.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, if a high level cleric is needed, why not kill RC and make him into a controlled undead cleric? All the levels of RC, and he eats less, and also talks less.

Presumably, the Dark One would refuse to grant spells to enslaved Redcloak. A lvl 17 undead goblin cleric without any actual spells is not any better than no cleric at all. It's also debatable if that new intelligent undead would have access to the necessary knowledge to pull it off, anyways. If it's some negative energy spirit in there... Even if vampires are unique*, the "evil negative energy occupant" mechanism makes sense for all undead. Especially those dominated by their creators (thrall Durkon was greatly different than vampire Durkon).

In theory, Xykon could have the epic Animate Dead seed, which grants a lot of freedom to maybe find a way to do this... but really, we've never seen him animate anything more than basic skeletons and zombies. Heck, I don't even remember him doing skeletons? Just basic zombies all the time. Redcloak is the one that used Create Undead (whatever version of it) to get the Xykon look-alikes. Tsusiko was the one creating wights.

Xykon might just be incapable of animating intelligent undead, due to his build choices.

[Keltest]

He doesn't have any other means of interacting with the Gates as far as we know, so from his point of view he might as well cast it and see what happens.

Let me rephrase. Xykon has no reason to believe that the Dark One would continue to grant Deadcloak spells as Xykon's enslaved minion.

[zimmerwald1915]

Let me rephrase. Xykon has no reason to believe that the Dark One would continue to grant Deadcloak spells as Xykon's enslaved minion.

If the Dark One won't, some god, or concept, surely will. It'd be a shame to let 17 Cleric levels go to waste.

[Keltest]

If the Dark One won't, some god, or concept, surely will. It'd be a shame to let 17 Cleric levels go to waste.

I don't know about that. Being a cleric requires genuine faith, and that in turn would require free will, no?

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Besides, didn't Redcloak specifically use the threat of TDO not granting anybody else the ritual to keep Xykon from killing him in a fit of rage?

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't know about that. Being a cleric requires genuine faith, and that in turn would require free will, no?

Durkon's vampire retained his spells as a thrall, and his own spawn and thralls were able to prepare spells after leaving the Godsmoot for Firmament. So it seems not.

[Keltest]

Durkon's vampire retained his spells as a thrall, and his own spawn and thralls were able to prepare spells after leaving the Godsmoot for Firmament. So it seems not.

Perhaps, but he was controlled by another cleric. Its possible Nergal was granting Thrall-greg spells as a favor to Malack. Likewise with Hel and Greg's thralls.

[zimmerwald1915]

Perhaps, but he was controlled by another cleric. Its possible Nergal was granting Thrall-greg spells as a favor to Malack. Likewise with Hel and Greg's thralls.

Certainly possible. It is also not the only possible motivation a god might have to grant spells to another person's enthralled cleric. For example, they might be playing a long game and expect Xykon to be destroyed eventually - by granting spells in the intervening time they might have bought the loyalty of the cleric. Or they might want Xykon to succeed in his goals and offer his Redcloak thrall spells in order to help Xykon.

[Keltest]

Certainly possible. It is also not the only possible motivation a god might have to grant spells to another person's enthralled cleric. For example, they might be playing a long game and expect Xykon to be destroyed eventually - by granting spells in the intervening time they might have bought the loyalty of the cleric. Or they might want Xykon to succeed in his goals and offer his Redcloak thrall spells in order to help Xykon.

All of this is technically true, but its not anything Xykon can actually count on.

[RatElemental]

In theory, Xykon could have the epic Animate Dead seed, which grants a lot of freedom to maybe find a way to do this... but really, we've never seen him animate anything more than basic skeletons and zombies. Heck, I don't even remember him doing skeletons? Just basic zombies all the time. Redcloak is the one that used Create Undead (whatever version of it) to get the Xykon look-alikes. Tsusiko was the one creating wights.

Xykon might just be incapable of animating intelligent undead, due to his build choices.

You don't need to spend build resources on getting seeds. If you are capable of casting epic spells at all (which we know Xykon is) then you are capable of researching an epic spell using any and all epic spell seeds that exist*.

*Exception being the Life and Heal seeds, which you only get if you have 24 ranks in Knowledge (Nature) or Knowledge (Religion)

[WolvesbaneIII]

I don't know about that. Being a cleric requires genuine faith, and that in turn would require free will, no?

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Besides, didn't Redcloak specifically use the threat of TDO not granting anybody else the ritual to keep Xykon from killing him in a fit of rage?

What about mind control? like dominate person? or some other spell to control redcloak? I don't how D&D works really, so could xykon just dominate RC and make him do the spell?

Do dominated clerics still have access to spells from their gods?