Help me optimize this Bone Knight Cleric

[BanFox]

So, I'm playing my second D&D campaign ever and I'm playing this Tortle Cleric (which i really wanted to play) in 3.5, which my DM allowed, and the place is Eberron. I chose "Mother Ocean" as my Tortle Deity and my domains are Healing and Protection (not the best, but mother ocean offered those two + water and good). In my party we have a necromancer, a ranger, a monk and a rogue. for the stats we rolled 4d6 and picked the best 3 numbers, and i've been the luckiest of the party.
My stats (considering the Tortle's +2 Cos +2 Wis -2Dex and -2Char) are:

• 17 Strength
• 13 Dexterity
• 20 Constitution
• 10 Intelligence
• 20 Wisdom
• 7 Charisma

Now, I know that it sounds stupid to have a low charisma as a cleric, but my DM banned Divine meta magic and considering we have a necromancer in the party who can deal with the deads, I didn't really feel like charisma was that necessary, so I decided to avoid a negative dex. When i found out about the Bone Knight prestige class I decided that I really wanted to play it and it's possible because It doesn't require any alignment. My DM allowed me to take the feat Nymph's Kiss, which helps me get those extra necessary ability points. By running some calcs I realized that I could have my 1st level as Bone Knight at 6th character level by taking one level as Crusader (basically i'm thinking to take 3 levels as a cleric, then 1 crusader, then my 4th cleric level and then start as a Bone Knight). Even tho this makes me lose 2 spellcasting levels, i still think it's worth it. Basically I'm aiming at a cleric 4/Crusader 1/Bone Knight 10 Build (if i'll survive this long, ofc) and play as the group tank who can heal, but can do good amount of damages too (the character has the potential to occupy the god role of the team too tho).
My actual weapons are:

• A GreatSword (as my Deity's weapon is not specified the DM let me chose it)
• A Large Long Spear (which too deals 2d6 and helps me deal with my reduced movement) that we got from a giant.

From the crusader i'm thinking i'll select these Maneuvers and Stance:

• Iron Guard's Glare stance
• Crusader's Strike
• Charging Minotaur
• Leading the Attack
• Stone Bones
• Vanguard Strike

As next feats I'm inclined to take:

• Power Attack (at level 3, I'm using only weapons that take two hands)
• Two Handed Power Strike (at level 6)
• Maybe Augment Healing (at level 9)

As next stat improvements I'm inclined to take:

• +1 strength (at level 4) so that my strength modifier will be +4 and i'll have a +8dmg with two handed power strike
• Maybe +1 Dexterity (at level 8) which I know it may seems stupid, but I still don't have a Full Plate Armor, and when I'll craft my BoneCraft armor I should have enough gold to have it empowered with magic (giving a +1 max dexterity bonus to the Armor, at that point i'll have 14dex with a +2 modifier which will be the maximum i'll need, and it will help with my low AC from touch attacks)
• Maybe +1 Charisma (at level 12) so that I'll have just a -1 modifier, having an extra use of rebuke undead per day

It's my first time trying to optimize a character, so I'm writing here to hear what you think of this build and what could be improved/ I should change and how I should complete it. I'm close to level 3 tho, so the first 2 levels can't be changed (I do realize the domains were not the best choice, but I did not know about the Bone knight back then, or i would have probably followed "Brother Shell" and chose the War + Destruction/fire domain). My alignment is Neutral Good, and with the lack of information we decided that My deity, being a Nature Deity, is True Neutral. for the remaining 5 levels i was thinking about taking 2 levels as a Radiant Servant of Pelor (who is not in the Pantheon, but considering my deity shares 2 domains with it my DM said he would allow it) for the Extra Healing. I don't think It would be that good to lose other spellcasting levels (with the remaining 5 levels) And the RS of Pelor doesn't lose any, like few other prestige classes (divine oracle for example) but I'm opened to suggestions. My next session is in 6 hours, so if you were to read this post after that time and you want to help me, consider me already as a level 3 cleric. Thanks ahead for your help, and thanks for reading! Feel free to ask questions about the build/the party if something is unclear.

[Kayblis]

First of all, welcome to the game proper! It isn't your first campaign, but close enough

Being honest, you got a pretty good character planned ahead. I think you liked your class choice quite a bit, so I won't suggest other PrCs to distract you. Bone Knight is a hell of a fun class to play. This is also an unusually well-organized post, so thanks for that!

The one thing I feel you could improve is your feat selection though. In my experience, Power Attack doesn't really pick up until levels 6~7, when you start getting enough to-hit to sacrifice for damage. You could change PA to level 6 if you had any other priorities. Also, I assume you're running with the homebrew Two Handed Power Strike feat online, as I couldn't find it in a sourcebook. It may look like a lot, but in all honesty you're effectively picking a feat for a +2 damage, which is pretty bad on its own, as Str is your 3rd highest stat. This is the same bonus as Weapon Specialization when you get to it, and you could do better. I suggest Touch of Healing as your 3rd/6th lv feat - it lets you cure all day long at no cost, up to half max HP for any friendly target. This doubles up as an auto-stabilizer for downed allies, just like normal healing spells, and all you need is a single healing spell prepared(not cast). This is also better than Augment Healing in the long run, it comes online sooner and gets more mileage. Other good feats for a melee cleric include Animal Devotion(mixes well with the nature theme), Travel Devotion, Leap Attack once yo get PA up and running, and Strength Devotion. All Devotion feats grant a 1/day ability that can be used more times per day by spending turning attempts, but they usually last a full minute so it'll last you a full encounter. No real need to invest a lot into Cha. Look them up and see if some mesh well with your character!

[Gorthawar]

If you take all 4 levels of cleric before crusader you qualify for 2nd level maneuvers which gives a lot more choices like mountain hammer. Extra granted maneuver is not a bad choice for a level 6 feat when playing a crusader. Hope this helps.

[Troacctid]

I personally like Imbued Healing more than Augment Healing if you have the Healing domain, but if you're going melee, you might appreciate Holy Potency.

Have you looked at the No Turning variants from Dragon #353? They can be great for clerics who dump Cha. You can also trade turning for an improved domain power from Dragon #342; both your domains have pretty decent improved powers. The Spontaneous Restoration variant from Dungeonscape is also pretty good as a replacement for the Protection domain granted power. The retraining rules from PH2 should allow you to get any one of these retroactively on your next level-up.

[Falontani]

You look like your doing fine. Since you have a necromancer you might consider necromantic presence and necromantic might. It boosts all the undead's turn resistance, attack, and damage while near you. I suggest flameskulls from forgotten realms lost empires of faerun.

[BanFox]

First of all, welcome to the game proper! It isn't your first campaign, but close enough

Being honest, you got a pretty good character planned ahead. I think you liked your class choice quite a bit, so I won't suggest other PrCs to distract you. Bone Knight is a hell of a fun class to play. This is also an unusually well-organized post, so thanks for that!

The one thing I feel you could improve is your feat selection though. In my experience, Power Attack doesn't really pick up until levels 6~7, when you start getting enough to-hit to sacrifice for damage. You could change PA to level 6 if you had any other priorities. Also, I assume you're running with the homebrew Two Handed Power Strike feat online, as I couldn't find it in a sourcebook. It may look like a lot, but in all honesty you're effectively picking a feat for a +2 damage, which is pretty bad on its own, as Str is your 3rd highest stat. This is the same bonus as Weapon Specialization when you get to it, and you could do better. I suggest Touch of Healing as your 3rd/6th lv feat - it lets you cure all day long at no cost, up to half max HP for any friendly target. This doubles up as an auto-stabilizer for downed allies, just like normal healing spells, and all you need is a single healing spell prepared(not cast). This is also better than Augment Healing in the long run, it comes online sooner and gets more mileage. Other good feats for a melee cleric include Animal Devotion(mixes well with the nature theme), Travel Devotion, Leap Attack once yo get PA up and running, and Strength Devotion. All Devotion feats grant a 1/day ability that can be used more times per day by spending turning attempts, but they usually last a full minute so it'll last you a full encounter. No real need to invest a lot into Cha. Look them up and see if some mesh well with your character!

Thanks for the welcome! I tried to organize the post as much as possible being a bit long. Yes, I didn't realize Two handed power strike was a homebrew feat, we are not using them so i'll have to change it. Not having this feat then power attack is less useful, and I agree on taking it at level 6-7 (I was intentioned to take it at level 3 to have two handed power strike as soon as possible, as that feat was a pre requisite). I didn't know about Touch Healing and I might be picking it for real, but not sure wether to pick it already or later (I wanted to be able to deal more damage with my feats, in order to "compensate" those turns were I won't attack to heal/use support/evoking spells). My DM suggested me already the devotion feats, and the only problem I had with them is that I couldn't have more daily use of them because of my low CHA (i have 1 rebuke undead per day for now), but by not having anymore the two handed power strike, I might take the animal devotion feat at level 3, Power Attack at level 6 and Touch of Healing at level 9. If you have any suggestions for other feats at level 12/15 I'm open to listen!

[BanFox]

I personally like Imbued Healing more than Augment Healing if you have the Healing domain, but if you're going melee, you might appreciate Holy Potency.

Have you looked at the No Turning variants from Dragon #353? They can be great for clerics who dump Cha. You can also trade turning for an improved domain power from Dragon #342; both your domains have pretty decent improved powers. The Spontaneous Restoration variant from Dungeonscape is also pretty good as a replacement for the Protection domain granted power. The retraining rules from PH2 should allow you to get any one of these retroactively on your next level-up.

I didn't know most of these things so I checked them. I feel like Imbued Healing is good, but considering my other domain is protection, I think it's not that good for a feat slots (as it gives a +2 AC only if they are going full defense). I checked Holy Protency and I don't find the two maneuvers to be too good (one is on undead which is not necessary, the other is a +1 to attack rolls after healing which is decent but not that great, I'd already have feats that improve that). I checked the magazine #342 and the Improved Power for the protection domain seems very good, but I can't find the page on the #352 or the spontaneous restoration variants from dungeonscape, could you share me the links please?

[BanFox]

You look like your doing fine. Since you have a necromancer you might consider necromantic presence and necromantic might. It boosts all the undead's turn resistance, attack, and damage while near you. I suggest flameskulls from forgotten realms lost empires of faerun.

Thanks! I didn't mention it, but my DM banned Libris Mortis too, as he considers it too strong. If you have any suggestions for other feats I'm here to listen (I realized that two handed power strike is an homebrew, which I can't use, so i'll be taking power attack at level 6 and i'm searching for other feats at level 3, 9, 12 and 15)

[BanFox]

If you take all 4 levels of cleric before crusader you qualify for 2nd level maneuvers which gives a lot more choices like mountain hammer. Extra granted maneuver is not a bad choice for a level 6 feat when playing a crusader. Hope this helps.

How is that? I'm pretty new to the aspect of maneuvers, but I understood that whenever I were to become a crusader, that would be my first initiator level, that the cleric levels did not count. How does it work?

Edit: Is it about the part that says if you lack any martial adept levels, your initiator level is equal to 1/2 your character level? But then, even if I were to take it as 5th level, It would be 5/2= 2.5, which is rounded down to 2, and initiator level 1-2 grants you just 1st level maneuvers, you need to be of an initiator level of 3-4 to have 2nd level maneuvers

[Troacctid]

I checked the magazine #342 and the Improved Power for the protection domain seems very good, but I can't find the page on the #352 or the spontaneous restoration variants from dungeonscape, could you share me the links please?

Page 88 and 9 respectively. And it's #353, not #352, so that may help explain the confusion. 😉

How is that? I'm pretty new to the aspect of maneuvers, but I understood that whenever I were to become a crusader, that would be my first initiator level, that the cleric levels did not count. How does it work?

Edit: Is it about the part that says if you lack any martial adept levels, your initiator level is equal to 1/2 your character level? But then, even if I were to take it as 5th level, It would be 5/2= 2.5, which is rounded down to 2, and initiator level 1-2 grants you just 1st level maneuvers, you need to be of an initiator level of 3-4 to have 2nd level maneuvers

Your initiator level is equal to your level in the initiator class plus half your other levels, so a Cleric 4/Crusader 1 would have IL 3 and, since maximum level of maneuver known is based on your initiator level rather than your class level, could take 2nd-level maneuvers immediately.

Edit: This information is found on page 39 under "Multiclass Characters."

[BanFox]

Page 88 and 9 respectively. And it's #353, not #352, so that may help explain the confusion. 😉


Your initiator level is equal to your level in the initiator class plus half your other levels, so a Cleric 4/Crusader 1 would have IL 3 and, since maximum level of maneuver known is based on your initiator level rather than your class level, could take 2nd-level maneuvers immediately.

Edit: This information is found on page 39 under "Multiclass Characters."

Thanks for the clarification, I'll have to talk to my DM about the crusader again as he might consider there to be a gap too big in power between me and some other players (who are multi classing too, but a monk isn't as good as a cleric ofc), but considering i won't take other crusaders level (therefor not being able to change my maneuvers and stances), I think he'll allow it, in which case it would be a nice buff to the build. Anyway I'll probably take the improved power feat for both the health and protection domain which seems very good. I now checked the no turning variant classes, but unfortunately they require to be taken at level 1, which i'm not at anymore, and also I think that does not allow to become a Bone Knight, as the ability to turn or rebuke undead is required to become one. Now I'm looking at DungeonEscape (I didn't realize it was a volume, I thought it was just an other magazine) and I must say the restoration spells instead of the granted protection power is better, so I'll ask my DM if he allows that volume. Thanks for the help!

[Endarire]

How important is Crusader to you? Having played a Cloistered Cleric4/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Vindicator, being a spell level behind the curve hurt, but I also liked having White Raven Tactics on tap. I know you're going Bone Knight, but that also loses a caster level at PrC1. I've generally preferred spells for their versatility, but decide whether you want to be stuck with level 1 & 2 maneuvers & stances if you go Crusader.

The Good domain has been remarkably good for me: +1 CL and some spells I'd likely use anyway.

Where are you putting your level 4/8/12/16/20 points?

Thankee for being clear and overt with what's happening in your game!

[BanFox]

How important is Crusader to you? Having played a Cloistered Cleric4/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Vindicator, being a spell level behind the curve hurt, but I also liked having White Raven Tactics on tap. I know you're going Bone Knight, but that also loses a caster level at PrC1. I've generally preferred spells for their versatility, but decide whether you want to be stuck with level 1 & 2 maneuvers & stances if you go Crusader.

The Good domain has been remarkably good for me: +1 CL and some spells I'd likely use anyway.

Where are you putting your level 4/8/12/16/20 points?

Thankee for being clear and overt with what's happening in your game!

I do agree that losing an extra spellcaster level isn't the best, but as I said the crusader level mainly allows me to take my First Bone level as 6th level overall, instead of 7th. Also there are some good maneuvers (I'm taking the iron glare stance, Stone Bones, Leading the Attack, Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader's Charge and Tactical Strike) that can help out. This means I'd be a complete Bone Knight at level 15 instead of 16. Also I wrote that I'll be taking my level 4 point in strength (to have a +4) and I was thinking to take my level 8 point in dex (so that I just max it if i'll be able to make my Bonecraft armor magic as I want to), Maybe 12th level point in Charma (so that I get an extra use of Rebuke Undead. 16 and 20 probably just wisdom, or I could take level 12 and 16 in Wisdom. Anyway if you have any idea about how to become a Bone Knight at level 6 without taking the Crusader I'm happy to hear (considering I'm a level 3 cleric right now)