Origin of the "Scottish Dwarf" trope

[The New Bruceski]

I get and agree with your point, but to nitpick it should be mentioned that Bajorans actually are space Jews. DS9 was not subtle, at least until they realized Gul Dukat had a fanbase and tried to milk that while saying "what? Nazis? Nonono we'd NEVER encourage looking at them sympatherically if they were Nazis."

E: to correct myself I think I remembered Dukat's DS9 arc wrong. They started doing some psychological things and "the bad guy doesn't think they're a bad guy" stuff with Gul Dukat, then found out people were reading that as him not actually being the bad guy, and took a hard swerve back to full unforgivably evil at the end. It's been a while since I saw the series.

[The Jack]

Here's a nutcase question I didn't want to make a thread about. I am fully aware that 'cultures as fantasy races' is a hilarious idea that many won't take kindly too, but it's relevant.

If I wanted to do a DnD setting with not-16/17th century japan involved, who are the Dwarves?
The Not-Nanban (europeans) , what with their introduction of advanced technologies, firearms, and their vulgar manners (we're talking european sailors, not europe as a whole!) Plus dwarves as we seem them are european, even if other cultures have dwarf myths.
Or the not-Japanese themselves, being seen as good smiths and hardy warriors. They're highly clanish, xenophobic and their home is very mountainous. Plus they're shorter than their neighbours and they all know it.

I feel like false japan centric, the europeans are the dwarves
But in a game on the continent, the false-japanese are the obvious choice for dwarves.

[Serenity]

One of the campaigns I'm currently playing in has a lot of echoes of Imperial China in Dwarven culture.

[tomandtish]

I get and agree with your point, but to nitpick it should be mentioned that Bajorans actually are space Jews. DS9 was not subtle, at least until they realized Gul Dukat had a fanbase and tried to milk that while saying "what? Nazis? Nonono we'd NEVER encourage looking at them sympatherically if they were Nazis."

E: to correct myself I think I remembered Dukat's DS9 arc wrong. They started doing some psychological things and "the bad guy doesn't think they're a bad guy" stuff with Gul Dukat, then found out people were reading that as him not actually being the bad guy, and took a hard swerve back to full unforgivably evil at the end. It's been a while since I saw the series.

Regarding your edit.... sort of?

Dukat started as the bad guy based on his role/action during the occupation. During season 4 they had his actions align more with our protagonists, primarily due to necessity (Klingon invasion of Cardassia). But they also showed that he had other sides (mixed race daughter who he ended up caring about a great deal, etc.). Even Kira (Bajorian) ended up... not exactly liking him, but tolerating and even respecting him a little). Then he went with the Dominion and well....

So not so much they realized people thought he wasn't a bad guy as they wanted to show he wasn't JUST a bad guy. But even throughout his issues (desire for personal power, desire to make Cardassia a great power again) always slip through. It's actually a pretty good luck at how alliances can shift and you can make friendly with even horrible people.

[factotum]

That was a recurring theme in DS9--the necessity to sometimes work with horrible people to ensure a good outcome. The episode where Sisko and Garak perform a massive deception in order to trick the Romulans into allying with the Federation in the Dominion War, for instance.

[DomaDoma]

the Dwarves presented in the Hobbit were, if anything, coded as being Jewish (a people in exile, the Khuzdul language being based on Hebrew, and some less flattering stereotypes I won't deign to mention).

Also, "the Mount" in Jerusalem? The one where the temples were and all that? Its name is Moriah. I will never refrain from sharing that in this conversation.

[Fyraltari]

Also, "the Mount" in Jerusalem? The one where the temples were and all that? Its name is Moriah. I will never refrain from sharing that in this conversation.

Tolkien denied any link.

EDIT: That's interesting to know, though, thank you.

[2D8HP]

That was a recurring theme in DS9--the necessity to sometimes work with horrible people to ensure a good outcome. The episode where Sisko and Garak perform a massive deception in order to trick the Romulans into allying with the Federation in the Dominion War, for instance.

Deep Space Nine set the bar so high that no subsequent Star Trek has equaled it.

[Vinyadan]

The generic pirate accent is Cornwallian - the further east you go, West Country accent becomes less hard ARRRRRRR and more soft arrrrr of the generic West Country farmer by about Wiltshire via the Devonian Cadbury's Caramel Bunny.

Given that a fair few English pirates were Cornish or Devonian, it's also a truth in fiction.

So that whole "dooty is dooty" and "jine" thing is Cornish?

[OutOfThyme]

One of the campaigns I'm currently playing in has a lot of echoes of Imperial China in Dwarven culture.

I've done this in my own campaign setting, and it's worked surprisingly well.

The Duergar are the corrupted remnants of the noble clans that once ran the Great Mythical Dwarven Empire. Their chief clan, at one point, attained the in-universe equivalent of the Mandate of Heaven by uniting all other clans, and kept rule for some 500 years. Towards the end of their rule, this devolves into corrupt practices, like slavery and practicing forbidden (by modern standards, at least) magic. That ends with a predictable revolution, and the surviving Nobles flee into the Underdark. Unfortunately for them, the Underdark is sentient (kind of, it's like the inside of the prison cell for a god) and kinda corrupts them into the Duergar we know and love/hate.

The Hill and Mountain Dwarf distinction is essentially treated like the difference between individuals from different regions. They're basically commoner/merchant clans that sided with the revolution and settled into different parts of their native region after the fall of the empire (with the rest being split between native humans and orcs).

It's worked surprisingly well, in my opinion.

[Brother Oni]

So that whole "dooty is dooty" and "jine" thing is Cornish?

The pronunciation probably is (I haven't watched Treasure Island with Robert Newton), but a quick google search indicates 'dooty is dooty' is somewhat more complicated: link.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The Tolken Dwarf drew its influences from Scandinavia, and Norse mythology. But you can find some overlap with that and Medieval Scotland. Probably due to the Vikings ruling northern England during the 11th century. Now Scottish accents have been more prominent in media then Scandinavian. So the former accent is easier to fake.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gnoman
…one of Gygax's inspirations for D&D is an early 1950's fantasy novel featuring a Scottish-ish dwarf.

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
I've been led to believe it was started by Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions which had a Dwarf character that spoke in-universe with an archaic and rustic dialect of French which manifested - when translated by the protagonist/author - into a very accented form of English that has some feel of Scottish to it.

The dwarf in Three Hearts and Three Lions reads as very Scottish, including his use of “laddie.” I’m pretty sure this is the source for the stereotype in question, especially since as Gnoman mentions, the book was an inspiration for D&D.

[Kitten Champion]

The dwarf in Three Hearts and Three Lions reads as very Scottish, including his use of “laddie.” I’m pretty sure this is the source for the stereotype in question, especially since as Gnoman mentions, the book was an inspiration for D&D.

I actually started listening to the audiobook a little while ago just out of curiosity, and he's performed quite substantively Scottish there. Notably more than in my own mind while reading, it's punch you in the face levels of Scottish.

[Brother Oni]

Notably more than in my own mind while reading, it's punch you in the face levels of Scottish.

So Glaswegian then?

[Wardog]

I think a lot of the dwarves in Baldur's Gate were "Scottish". (Or at least, had accents that I suspect were supposed to sound somewhat Scottish. I don't think I've met a Scot that sounded much like any of them).

[Sinewmire]

An interesting question. The first time I *remember* Scottish Dwarves is Warcraft 2's Dwarven Mortar.

I suspect it's simply because the "Fantasy accent" is English (alien enough to not jar an American audience out of their willing suspension of disbelief, but still very understandable) and a rougher, gruffer craggy manual-labouring sounding English is Scottish, just as the Recieved Pronunciation of the upper classes is used for the smoother, gentler elves.

Incidentally Warhammer Dwarves are certainly not Scottish, they are Yorkshire accented thanks to the british stereotype of northerners - bluff, hard drinking, plain spoken, stubborn, derisive and never letting go a grudge. There is a Dwarf in the Gotrek and Felix books, Malakai Makaisson who has a distinct Scottish dialect, and even the other Dwarves think it's incomprehensible.