Belkar's Alignment

[Malfarian]

Sorry this thread is basically empty, but it seemed timely to start discussing again.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

CE, trending north.

Grey Wolf

[PontificatusRex]

I think if it does "officially" change, we'll find out when Belkar activates his charm and it doesn't hurt.

He'll probably be more surprised than anyone.

[MartianInvader]

This most recent comic is the most explicit evidence yet that Belkar's on his way to an alignment change. I like the approach too - seeing evil as weakness lets him shift alignment while keeping a lot of his fun personality.

Now that I think about it, when was the last time he commited an explicitly evil act? I can't think of anything off the top of my head since he bullied and stole from prisoners in the gladitorial arena.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

when was the last time he commited an explicitly evil act?

Torture of the mind-dominated kobold came after that.

So did lying to a storekeeper to get a discounted magical item by letting her think it was defective.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

Defrauding the gnome who sold him the talisman maybe:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html

even if it simply consists of omission - failing to tell her that it's not malfunctioning and therefore does not need to be sold to him at half price.

His pretence that it is broken goes a bit beyond "lie of omission" though.

For a less ambiguous example, there's this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html

which amounts to torture.

[Leirus]

Torture of the mind-dominated kobold came after that.

So did lying to a storekeeper to get a discounted magical item by letting her think it was defective.

Grey Wolf

But he felt bad about the storekeeper! Progress!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But he felt bad about the storekeeper! Progress!

He has been feeling bad about other sentient beings since he assisted the escape of the bounty hunters. But, yes, "trending north".

Grey Wolf

[Doug Lampert]

But he felt bad about the storekeeper! Progress!

Oh, Belkar is clearly moving progress northward on the alignment scale, it's just that he's got a long way to go, and "Halfling Baby Steps Are Very Small".

[Gift Jeraff]

Chaotic Evil with a heart of gold.

[Peelee]

Now that I think about it, when was the last time he commited an explicitly evil act?

When was the last time he committed an explicitly Good act? If Xykon just up and decided to go lay on the beach for a couple decades, I wouldn't start calling him Neutral just because it's been a while since he did anything wrong.

ETA: I'm hitching my wagon onto Gift Jeraff's train.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When was the last time he committed an explicitly Good act?

I'd count feeling & expressing regret about a past Evil action to be an act of Good.

I do not think a drop in the number of Evil acts to "one every other day or so" and three moments of regret/compassion over the last couple of weeks to get him out of E, though.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I'd count feeling & expressing regret about a past Evil action to be an act of Good.

Fair point.

I do not think a drop in the number of Evil acts to "one every other day or so" and three moments of regret/compassion over the last couple of weeks to get him out of E, though.

Grey Wolf

Also agreed. Which is why I think GJ summarized it nicely.

[Fyraltari]

Confused Evil.

[masamune1]

Wondering now if his attempts to slay Vamp!-Durkon when the latter was pretending to be good count as Evil behaviour or not.

Obviously, WE knew he was in the right, because the comic quickly told us. It would have been a different story arc if it kept his true nature secret for a lot longer.

And it would have been different skill if he was exactly what he claimed to be- Durkon, but just a vampire now, rather than possessed by an evil spirit.

Belkar seemed to be going off of gut instinct more than anything like actually knowing how vampires worked...would it have been Evil of him to try and kill V!Durkon if V!Durkon was actually Good? And if so, would his actual slaying attempts not count as Evil anyway?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wondering now if his attempts to slay Vamp!-Durkon when the latter was pretending to be good count as Evil behaviour or not.

As I see it, it was Neutral. It was proportional revenge for having killed the Real Durkon. Revenge is eminently Neutral (verging on Evil, due to the old adage "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind", but that requires foresight that Belkar doesn't posses).

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Revenge is eminently Neutral.

See, it's statements like that that make me dislike D&D's alignment system.

[Michaeler]

See, it's statements like that that make me dislike D&D's alignment system.

D&D's alignment system puts most real people into good alignments. Which is fine, good people are allowed to disagree.

As for Belkar, I've assumed for a long time that we won't see his alignment change. He'll wake up in an unexpected afterlife and that will be the first confirmation we'll have.

[gatemansgc]

i like to think of each alignment as having 8 subalignments. hence why you can have two chaotic evil characters be so different. xykon is more chaotic, more evil. belkar is also more chaotic but less evil. and becoming less evil as his "fake" character development becomes more real.

i'm pretty sure he's still evil enough to be hurt by his protection against evil clasp though. that probably won't change until almost the time when he tries to stab the snarl and gets erased.

[Rrmcklin]

This strip doesn't really give us anything new to talk about: he's Chaotic Evil, but slowly (emphasis on slowly) trending to something less so (Evil, that is, no effect on the Chaos).

Really, there's no argument to be made that he isn't Evil; I'd imagine that's the entire reason Rich made his charm hurt him in the first place, so people will stop going "maybe Belkar isn't Evil anymore" and also maybe giving us a clear sign that he's stopped being Evil (though I really wouldn't count on that).

[The Pilgrim]

Belkar is Evil until that charm on his cloak clasp stops itching.

But he is going in the right direction. He is even no longer reluctant to acknowledge in front of others that he is changing.

[Synesthesy]

Belkar is clearly a very different character since he started changing.
We can assume the old Belkar has ceased breathing since sometime......
No, he won't die, someone needed to write it here.
However, I think that he is a lot wiser, and that means he's less evil. Only that this time the wisdom gain is not fake, so his change of hearth isn't either.

[Fyraltari]

Only that this time the wisdom gain is not fake, so his change of hearth isn't either.

Then again last time Belkar prented to change hearth, it was for tax fraud purposes.

[Liquor Box]

Torture of the mind-dominated kobold came after that.

So did lying to a storekeeper to get a discounted magical item by letting her think it was defective.

Grey Wolf

Both those are much less egregious than his evils prior to dominating in the thieves guild, and both were some time ago. He has arguable committed several good acts since then.

Not disagreeing with you, or saying its enough that he is not evil yet, but the upward trend is strong.

[understatement]

He'll probably not live to see CN.

It's a pretty cool irony, though -- he's being clearly marked as Evil when he's alight from the clasp, even when he's telling "Durkon" how bad he felt over his death.

[RatElemental]

Chaotic Evil with a heart of gold.

Honestly, I wouldn't even go that far. Chaotic Evil with neutral tendencies.

[Celestia]

My guess for Belkar is that he is currently still CE and will remain as such for the rest of the story. He'll slowly but surely continue gaining a conscience, but it won't be enough to cause an alignment shift until the very end. In his last moments he'll end up willingly sacrificing himself to save the party, and that will be just enough to push him over the edge and send him to the CN afterlife.

[Fish]

Yes.

Belkar has an alignment.

/thread

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar's Alignment
CE.
With a heart of brass.
Expecting a cat to evoke a positive change in Belkar, given the nature of cats, is a reach.

He may grow, but on the balance the analysis presented by the Deva argues that he's headed to the CE afterlife. And he's probably good with that.

In my first year of law school, I had a ConLaw professor who opened his first lecture with a spiel - drawn in large part from Burke, now that I think about it - about how in modern states constitutions and laws are made largely by and for lawyers, that lawyers by virtue of this and of their overrepresentation in governments are a ruling class in some senses, and thus that lawyers thus had a responsibility to be attentive to the public ramifications of what they do, even in private transactions.

Anecdotal evidence is not dispositive of anything, but I highly doubt Celia never encountered some version of this idea.

I arrived at a similar conclusion in the late 1980's after taking a few business law and a con law classes during part of a masters degree. ( I did not attend law school). Interesting to hear that at least one law prof fits into the "self aware" category.

(And you have reminded me that I am behind on my reading list, Burke still being in the pile "to be read ..." )

[Peelee]

Belkar's Alignment
CE.
With a heart of brass.
Expecting a cat to evoke a positive change in Belkar, given the nature of cats, is a reach.

Once he had a cat and it was a gas
Soon turned out he had a heart of brass
Seemed like the real thing only to find
Durkon's soul, friend's gone behind.