Belkar's Alignment

[Fyraltari]

I don't think anyone matches "perfectly," though, or that such a thing is quite rare. Think about the range of possibilities even within one alignment of how it could be expressed. If alignment is a 3x3 grid, only nine points on that grid would fit "perfectly."

It's not 9 points, it's 9 cases (Or 17 for afterlives, and everyone fits in one of those).

It seems quite plausible that some points are close to the edge, and that, absent a Good Place-style scoring system, there will be judgment calls. (I mean, that's literally what we saw with Roy.)

Close to the edge is not on the fence though. We have no evidence that the NG afterlife would not have sent Roy to Celestia too.

Look I agree that trying to put morality and personnality in boxes rather than a gradient is doomed to failure but that's how D&D went about it.

[RatElemental]

I'm going to take that as a compliment.

Seeing as he just deciced that admitting that you were wrong to do some things is manly, I'd say he is halfway there to "try to be good".

This sounds like something out of the HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy or Discworld.

Belkar doesn't have to try to be good to be non-evil. Once again it always seems like people are forgetting neutral here.

Someone brought up a point that I think should be discussed a bit more way back in this thread. When it comes to alignment, what matters more: Where you currently are, or where you were in the past?

I personally would weight it more towards where someone currently is. After all, what is the point of punishment? It's to get people to see the error of their ways, or failing that, to keep them from hurting more people. If someone already has seen the error of their ways* and or is no longer in danger of hurting people*, what is the point of sending them to the abyss? Revenge? All that'll end up doing in the end is empowering the forces of evil even more anyway.

Someone who is truly remorseful will naturally seek to make amends or at least try to balance the scales on their own.

*I am aware Belkar isn't at this point, but I think he might get there before he dies.

[Rrmcklin]

Belkar doesn't have to try to be good to be non-evil. Once again it always seems like people are forgetting neutral here.

More than that, they forget that neutral isn't just good-lite. It's entirely possible to be a terrible person without actually being "evil" even in the real world, let alone in D&D.

Should Belkar become some flavor of Neutral before he dies, I still imagine that be what he was - someone who, from an objective stand point, is still just kind of terrible.

[Peelee]

It's not 9 points, it's 9 cases (Or 17 for afterlives, and everyone fits in one of those).

Close to the edge is not on the fence though.

But is there even a fence? As you said, 17 afterlives. There's LG, NG, and something in between. One of my favorite analogies is the red/blue line. You have a line that is red at one end, blue at another, and the transition in between. When does it stop being red and start being blue? Or purple? Where is the exact point? How much Lawfulness is enough to not be in Elysium and get into Celestia? Or Bytopia?

[Fyraltari]

But is there even a fence? As you said, 17 afterlives. There's LG, NG, and something in between. One of my favorite analogies is the red/blue line. You have a line that is red at one end, blue at another, and the transition in between. When does it stop being red and start being blue? Or purple? Where is the exact point? How much Lawfulness is enough to not be in Elysium and get into Celestia? Or Bytopia?

But it's not continuous, unlike a line. Three segments do not make a gradient.

EDIt:So basically there 4 cases: in increasing order of Chaoticness:
LG-Celestia -> LG "let's all do our part" -> NG "let's all do our part" -> NG "everyone should care" and you can fit only one of those.

[Peelee]

But it's not continuous, unlike a line. Three segments do not make a gradient.

So, again, where's the exact point? If it was that simple, the universe's pre-sorting should work out fine. Instead, they have an arbiter.

[Fyraltari]

So, again, where's the exact point? If it was that simple, the universe's pre-sorting should work out fine. Instead, they have an arbiter.

What pre-sorter? I thought people got to the plane whose alignment they were trying to match and from there got admitted in or failing that sent elsewhere unil they find the one that matches.

[Peelee]

What pre-sorter? I thought people got to the plane whose alignment they were trying to match

The one you just described. Nobody sent Roy's soul to the gates of Celestia, but somebody did judge whether he got in or not. If you have an square peg and a round hole, you don't much need arbitration, do you?

[Synesthesy]

But is there even a fence? As you said, 17 afterlives. There's LG, NG, and something in between. One of my favorite analogies is the red/blue line. You have a line that is red at one end, blue at another, and the transition in between. When does it stop being red and start being blue? Or purple? Where is the exact point? How much Lawfulness is enough to not be in Elysium and get into Celestia? Or Bytopia?

This is called Sorites paradox.

The main problem is the fact that aligments work with a 3 value logic: we have True (Good), False (Evil), or Null (Neutral). Who works with SQL knows how this works. But person don't work this way, it should use some kind of fuzzy logic: 1 is Good, 0 is Evil, 0.5 is neutral....

[Fyraltari]

The one you just described. Nobody sent Roy's soul to the gates of Celestia, but somebody did judge whether he got in or not. If you have an square peg and a round hole, you don't much need arbitration, do you?

Yes, you do. You still need to see that the peg is square and the hole round. I mean just because there is only one correct answer doesn't mean which one is right is obvious especially if several look alike. Roy tried his whole life to be LG and the deva who reviewed his life concluded that he succeded and could go to Celestia. I don't see how that indicates that he could go elsewhere too.

I can give you two infinite lists of rational numbers getting closer to the square root of two one always superior and one always inferior. Take a random number in each and they'll be really close to each other but that doesn't mean they could swap places.

Edit:
A: 1.4 1.41 1.414 1.414213
B: 1.5 1.42 1.415 1.414214

Where does 1.414213562374 belong? B.

[Peelee]

Yes, you do. You still need to see that the peg is square and the hole round.

Not really, it'd just fit or not. Certainly wouldn't someone to pull a file out on the peg to review how round is round enough.

[Caerulea]

Not really, it'd just fit or not. Certainly wouldn't someone to pull a file out on the peg to review how round is round enough.

If it could not possibly fit in more than one place, then there is no need to review the peg when it arrives at the hole. If it could, you need some metric to determine which hole is closest before sending it off to review. No matter the metric you decide on, if it is a spectrum, there will be those that fall in the middle.

—Caerulea

[Ruck]

This is called Sorites paradox.

The main problem is the fact that aligments work with a 3 value logic: we have True (Good), False (Evil), or Null (Neutral). Who works with SQL knows how this works. But person don't work this way, it should use some kind of fuzzy logic: 1 is Good, 0 is Evil, 0.5 is neutral....

And in that case, where do 0.25 and 0.75 go? (Or 0.33 and 0.66, if you believe all three alignments constitute 1/3 of the spectrum.)

[Fyraltari]

Not really, it'd just fit or not. Certainly wouldn't someone to pull a file out on the peg to review how round is round enough.

In this analogy the file would be the measurements of the peg, so still yes.

[Peelee]

In this analogy the file would be the measurements of the peg, so still yes.

But why? It would just roll into the hole and slide on through. Unless, of course, you had an oval peg which could fit through a round hole and an oval hole. Caerulea also put it nicely.

[Fyraltari]

But why? It would just roll into the hole and slide on through. Unless, of course, you had an oval peg which could fit through a round hole and an oval hole. Caerulea also put it nicely.

I'm not saying that it's physically impossible for a soul of another alignment to enter Clestia, I'm saying it wouldn't ultimately dissolve into the stuff of the plane like the others, or if it did it would make the whole plane sliiiiiiightly less LG so they check which one they let in.

[Peelee]

I'm not saying that it's physically impossible for a soul of another alignment to enter Clestia

It kind of sounds like you are:

So basically there 4 cases: in increasing order of Chaoticness:
LG-Celestia -> LG "let's all do our part" -> NG "let's all do our part" -> NG "everyone should care" and you can fit only one of those.

The impression I get is that there is only one cosmic alignment for everyone and that each of the planes only accept those who match their perfectly

[Fyraltari]

It kind of sounds like you are:

No? I apologize if I wasn't clear, but I see nothing in these post that implies that should a soul try to enter the wrong afterlife they would be physically incapable to do so rather than that there are only one right plane for a soul to afterlive their their afterlife in.

[Peelee]

No? I apologize if I wasn't clear, but I see nothing in these post that implies that should a soul try to enter the wrong afterlife they would be physically incapable to do so rather than that there are only one right plane for a soul to afterlive their their afterlife in.

"there's only one alignment for each person and each plane only accepts one that match perfectly" is very, very definitive. I'm not trying to hammer the point down, I'm just trying to make it so you can see how the misunderstanding occurred.

[Fyraltari]

"there's only one alignment for each person and each plane only accepts one that match perfectly" is very, very definitive. I'm not trying to hammer the point down, I'm just trying to make it so you can see how the misunderstanding occurred.

I mean, if the hotel down the street doesn't accept me, that doesn't me that it's physically imposible for me to enter, just that if I manage the people in it will tell me to / make me leave sooner or later.

[Peelee]

I mean, if the hotel down the street doesn't accept me, that doesn't me that it's physically imposible for me to enter, just that if I manage the people in it will tell me to / make me leave sooner or later.

If a credit card machine only takes Visa, the occasional Mastercard ain't ever gonna run.

[Fyraltari]

If a credit card machine only takes Visa, the occasional Mastercard ain't ever gonna run.

Yeah 'cause the machine chacks, but you can still slide the card in.

[Peelee]

Yeah 'cause the machine chacks, but you can still slide the card in.

And it rejects. Only accepts if the card manufacturer matches perfectly. So an AmEx charge will never get in. It'd be like a petitioner going to Celestia and getting booted to Arborea. If they only ever match perfectly, an Arborea guy would never get into Celestia. Not have the rare one slip in, not be there and not get absorbed into the plane, never get in to begin with. See the disconnect?

[LadyEowyn]

From what we saw of Roy in the afterlife, it seems like it’s possible for a person to be admissable to multiple different planes, and their preferences influence where they go. So Roy showed up at the gates of Celestia because he self-identified as Lawful Good - but based on the deva’s assessment that he’s not that far off Neutral Good, if he’d wanted to go to the Neutral Good afterlife (Arborea?), he’d likely have gotten in.

[Fyraltari]

And it rejects. Only accepts if the card manufacturer matches perfectly. So an AmEx charge will never get in. It'd be like a petitioner going to Celestia and getting booted to Arborea. If they only ever match perfectly, an Arborea guy would never get into Celestia. Not have the rare one slip in, not be there and not get absorbed into the plane, never get in to begin with. See the disconnect?

Not really? The machine sees that it's the wrong card (this is equivalent to the Deva review) and rejects it (sends the soul elsewhere), so yes a test is needed beyond "does the card physically fit into the machine".

[Lacuna Caster]

I usually believe you at least argue in good faith, even if your views make little to no sense to me. This is not one of those times. You're clearly being disingenuous here, and deliberately reading it as obtusely as possible.

Then what was hamish's argument here, exactly? He's clearly implying that the Twelve managed to 'take Gin-Jun's powers away' without any actual supernatural intervention.

As The Giant pointed out regarding War & XPs - showing bolts of blue lightning in Start of Darkness would have cheapened Miko's Fall..

Unfortunately, showing- what, dozens?- of other paladins getting away with literal murder also cheapens Miko's Fall. It makes it look like the Twelve are just being petty and arbitrary rather than enforcing any particularly lucid moral standard.

The point to a Fall is not to be subtle. The point is to show a very clear message to your underling/s that they're on the wrong track and need to stop. So the fact that they don't do any such thing in the Gin-Jun's case speaks volumes about their indifference.

[hamishspence]

From what we saw of Roy in the afterlife, it seems like it’s possible for a person to be admissable to multiple different planes, and their preferences influence where they go. So Roy showed up at the gates of Celestia because he self-identified as Lawful Good - but based on the deva’s assessment that he’s not that far off Neutral Good, if he’d wanted to go to the Neutral Good afterlife (Arborea?), he’d likely have gotten in.

Bytopia (where the gnome pantheon lives) is LG with NG tendencies, or NG with LG tendencies, and would fit Roy fairly neatly, had Celestia rejected him.

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Then what was hamish's argument here, exactly? He's clearly implying that the Twelve managed to 'take Gin-Jun's powers away' without any actual supernatural intervention.

Because that's how standard falling for a paladin works.

The "blue bolt" is OOTS-verse homebrew. And is reserved for special occasions.

[Lacuna Caster]

Because that's how standard falling for a paladin works. ...

Hamish, you are missing my point. If Gin-Jun had woken up one day unable to prepare his spells, this would have sent an unmistakeable message to his troops that his mission was misguided and he could not be trusted in command. Therefore, despite all attempts to paint the situation otherwise within the narrative, it is a logically sound inference that Gin-Jun was, in fact, operating with the approval and blessing of the Twelve.

[hamishspence]

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Hamish, you are missing my point. If Gin-Jun had woken up one day unable to prepare his spells, this would have sent an unmistakeable message to his troops that his mission was misguided and he could not be trusted in command.

"Waking up unable to prepare your spells, or use your special paladin powers" requires that you, the previous day, have committed Fall-worthy acts (or had the "DM" actually change your alignment).

"Bolt from the blue" during the fight with O-Chul, is unnecessary for him to have actually lost his powers - which is why one can surmise that he lost them (hence the rest of the paladins kicking him out of the Sapphire Guard), without there actually having to be dramatic visual imagery.

This was The Giant's statement:

Suffice to say that the Twelve Gods are not beholden to put on the same visual display they did for Miko for every paladin who transgresses, and that all transgressions are not created equal. It is possible that some of the paladins who participated in the attack crossed the line. It is also possible that most did not. A paladin who slips up in the execution of their god-given orders does not warrant the same level of personal attention by the gods as one who executes the legal ruler of their nation on a glorified hunch. Think of Miko's Fall as being the equivalent of the CEO of your multinational company showing up in your cubicle to fire you, because you screwed up THAT much.

Of course, while Redcloak is not narrating the scene, it is shown mostly from his perspective; we don't see how many Detect Evils were used before the attack started, and we don't see how many paladins afterwards try to heal their wounds and can't, because these things are not important to Redcloak's story. Whether or not some of the paladins Fell does not bring Redcloak's family back to life. Indeed, if we transplant the scene to real life, he would think it cold comfort that some of the police officers who gunned down his family had to turn in their badge afterward (but were otherwise given no punishment by their bosses at City Hall).

Dramatically, showing no-name paladins Falling at that point in the story would confuse the narrative by making it unclear whether or not Redcloak had already earned a form of retribution against them. To be clear, he had not: Whether or not some of them lost a few class abilities does not change the fact that Redcloak suffered an injustice at their hands, one that shaped his entire adult life. That was the point of the scene. Showing them Fall or not simply was not important to Redcloak's story, so it was omitted.

Further, it would have cheapened Miko's fall to show the same thing over and over--and Miko, as a major character in the series, deserved the emotional weight that her Fall carried (or at least that I hope it carried).

I hope that clears this issue up. I hope in vain, largely, but there you have it.

(Oh, and I leave it up to the readers to form their own opinions on which paladins may have Fallen and which didn't.)

It explains why the SOD paladins don't get "bolts from the blue".

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IMO it is equally applicable to Gin-Jun.

[Lacuna Caster]

"Bolt from the blue" during the fight with O-Chul, is unnecessary for him to have actually lost his powers - which is why one can surmise that he lost them (hence the rest of the paladins kicking him out of the Sapphire Guard)...

That is a complete invention of your own, hamish. None of the other paladins cite 'loss of power' as the reason for abandoning the mission, and there isn't a scrap of evidence that he actually did, despite having done plenty to deserve it long before he dueled with O-Chul.

Besides, why would the Gods be subtle about it? They either want his mission to be stopped, or they don't. If they do, there's no reason to hint or imply or be coy about it- send down the lightning and spell it out clearly that he should not be in charge. That's the main point to inflicting a Fall! To send a message!