[Sell Me] 5e. A game for a grognard?

[EggKookoo]

Unfortunately, I'd disagree with your statement that there is no "stair climbing" mechanic in 5e. This type of obstacle does appear in certain published modules from WOTC and they are a thing. I just had a Level 2 Elvan Wizard DIE last night in a ridiculously written module where you had to make a STR check to open EVERY DOOR in an abandoned town. I failed the DC 10 roll about half the time with my STR 10 Wizard. Then we encountered the 12 HD DRAGON that had been written into the module and it breathed poison gas on us. I failed my save and took 44 points of damage to my 14 HP Wizard (a pregen that came with the boxed set/module). Half the party died and the rest fled from that 12HD Dragon that the writers put into what is supposed to be a Level 1 thru 3 adventure. The balance of 5e modules as written, SUCKS.

You're talking about Lost Mine of Phandelver. The doors were specifically described as old, swollen, and stuck. It's not like you have to make a check to open doors in general, which is what noob was implying about the stairs.

Also, just to be clear, your wizard didn't die because of stuck doors. My party of 2nd or 3rd level PCs handled the (optional side-quest) dragon. They talked to him and made some persuasion checks.

[olskool]

Did someone end the campaign after getting it?
Does the Deck of many things keep its campaign ending power in 5e?

NOPE! That's WHY my Wizard's dead. One of our comrades got 50,000 EXP and a wondrous item. The Bugbear Barbarian/Bard (yes he's a Barbarian AND a Bard with max stats) is now 5th/5th Level. The +5 Dagger of Slaying was drawn by our Thief after said Thief lost ALL his magic items from a previous drawn card. Our Monk got his soul sucked out of his body and imprisoned in a gem, I refused to draw at all (knowing the danger through Detect Magic and an Arcanna check) and the Cleric had left the cave with a bunch of wounded captive townsfolk. Keep in mind this was a LEVEL ONE encounter in a Goblin Cave. The big issue was that the Monk PC was also being played by the DM (people it is ALWAYS A BAD IDEA FOR THE DM TO PLAY A PC TOO!). When Scrim got "soul sucked," our DM was actually distraught.

FAST FORWARD...

Investigating the town last night, we advance on a ruined tower with an attached cottage. I detect magic. I TRY to send my squirrel Familiar to recon the tower BUT the DM say that no matter what he tries he CANNOT climb that tower. The DM KNOWS that IF I KNOW that the Dragon is nesting in the tower, I'll flee. The problem is that Scrim is imprisoned in a gem in the Dragon's horde and our DM wants us to rescue him. So we (me, our thief, and the Bugbear Barbarian/Bard) enter the cottage attached to the tower and then open the tower door. The dragon confrots us and our overconfident Barbarian/Bard decides to cast a Cantrip (stealthily) as I negotiate for our lives. The Dragon sees this... Roll for Initiative... Dragon wins and breaths poison gas that IMMEDIATELY DROPS Me AND the Thief while taking a huge bit out of the Barbarian's HP. Barbarian goes next and slams the door to the tower then grabs the Hafling thief (they are on the same side of the door) who is at like -6 HP and runs. Dragon hunts them for half an hour before returning to his lair (and presumably eating me). The Dm felt bad and is going to let me make... a NEW SECOND LEVEL CHARACTER soooo... we can go back, slay the Dragon and rescue Scrim??!!

I'm not feeling good vibes with this gaming group. In the DM's defense, it is his FIRST TIME as a DM.

[olskool]

You're talking about Lost Mine of Phandelver. The doors were specifically described as old, swollen, and stuck. It's not like you have to make a check to open doors in general, which is what noob was implying about the stairs.

Also, just to be clear, your wizard didn't die because of stuck doors. My party of 2nd or 3rd level PCs handled the (optional side-quest) dragon. They talked to him and made some persuasion checks.

Read my post just put up. My issue is with the DMs that are showing up to gamemaster. The DC issues ARE REAL. I have seen a DC 15 slope (listed at 28 degrees? for the record you walk that slope a hundred times a day), a climb described as 10 feet with good hand holds at DC 10, and of course our damaging ditch crossing in the first encounter of the module.

[Ignimortis]

The Class system is a little hard to take after playing "Classless, Skills-Based systems" like Mythras (which I cannot recomend highly enough). Some features like Concentrate for certain spells is kind of broken because WOTC looked at them from a "combat perspective" instead of from an "exploratory viewpoint." The game (especially FEATS) has a "Video gamey" vibe that I just cannot shake. This is reinforced by AUTOMATIC Characteristic increases, everyone getting Magic at some point, and the unlimited castings of Cantrips.

Not sure where you see everyone getting magic at some point. One of the classes in the game explicitly doesn't get magic at all (Barbarian), and two more get magic only in one of their many archetypes (Fighter, Rogue). Unless you count a single 1-st level spell that can be fluffed as not being a spell (Speak with Animals) for a Totem Barbarian, but a Berserker doesn't even get that much, it's just a slab of meat with a sharp and/or heavy stick. Monk is somewhat magick-y with Ki points, but Open Hand Monk, which is the "vanilla" one, also doesn't get anything explicitly magical.

[OverLordOcelot]

Unfortunately, I'd disagree with your statement that there is no "stair climbing" mechanic in 5e. This type of obstacle does appear in certain published modules from WOTC and they are a thing. I just had a Level 2 Elvan Wizard DIE last night in a ridiculously written module where you had to make a STR check to open EVERY DOOR in an abandoned town. I failed the DC 10 roll about half the time with my STR 10 Wizard. Then we encountered the 12 HD DRAGON that had been written into the module and it breathed poison gas on us. I failed my save and took 44 points of damage to my 14 HP Wizard (a pregen that came with the boxed set/module). Half the party died and the rest fled from that 12HD Dragon that the writers put into what is supposed to be a Level 1 thru 3 adventure. The balance of 5e modules as written, SUCKS.

What''s the name of the module? It sounds like either it was really awful or the DM was running it completely wrong. Also, while giving every door a STR check sounds obnoxious, why were you having one wizard open the doors alone? Take someone with the highest STR in the party, have them pair up with anyone else for the help action, and you're rolling at advantage every time, and can add another d4 if there's someone with guidance.

A +5 Dagger of Slaying
A +3 Necklace of Protection
A Ring of Fire Absorption and Redirection
6 Exploding Arrows (30ft blast radius for 2D6 Damage)

Note to the OP: This has nothing at all to do with 5e D&D - those items aren't even 5e items. There isn't a necklace of protection in standard 5e rules, and the ring and cloak of protection only have +1 versions. The exploding arrows and ring of fire absorbtion and redirection also aren't in the rules, and magical weapons only go +1 to +3; +5 weapons were a thing in older versions. If you roll for treasure in 5e, the charts won't give top tier items at low levels or in only six sessions either. No version of D&D has any ability to stop a DM from making up any item that they want and handing it out whenever they want.

[PhoenixPhyre]

And +3 is as high as magic items go. Edit: and those are legendary, showing up rarely in the upper teen levels at best.

Bad DMs will DM badly in any system. No rules will stop them. Only people refusing to play with them will stop them.

[olskool]

Not sure where you see everyone getting magic at some point. One of the classes in the game explicitly doesn't get magic at all (Barbarian), and two more get magic only in one of their many archetypes (Fighter, Rogue). Unless you count a single 1-st level spell that can be fluffed as not being a spell (Speak with Animals) for a Totem Barbarian, but a Berserker doesn't even get that much, it's just a slab of meat with a sharp and/or heavy stick. Monk is somewhat magick-y with Ki points, but Open Hand Monk, which is the "vanilla" one, also doesn't get anything explicitly magical.

The Ritual Caster FEAT or you multiclass the Barbarian with another class.

[olskool]

What''s the name of the module? It sounds like either it was really awful or the DM was running it completely wrong. Also, while giving every door a STR check sounds obnoxious, why were you having one wizard open the doors alone? Take someone with the highest STR in the party, have them pair up with anyone else for the help action, and you're rolling at advantage every time, and can add another d4 if there's someone with guidance.




Note to the OP: This has nothing at all to do with 5e D&D - those items aren't even 5e items. There isn't a necklace of protection in standard 5e rules, and the ring and cloak of protection only have +1 versions. The exploding arrows and ring of fire absorbtion and redirection also aren't in the rules, and magical weapons only go +1 to +3; +5 weapons were a thing in older versions. If you roll for treasure in 5e, the charts won't give top tier items at low levels or in only six sessions either. No version of D&D has any ability to stop a DM from making up any item that they want and handing it out whenever they want.

If Chris Baskins is right it's the Lost Mines of Phandelver.

Several of the items were "awarded" by the Deck of Many Things found in the Goblin Cave on our first session... Monty haul DMs (shakes head)....

[EggKookoo]

If Chris Baskins is right it's the Lost Mines of Phandelver.

Yeah, it's an abandoned village where the elements have essentially fused most of the doors shut. They're swollen and stuck, requiring the Strength checks. It makes sense in context. The problem I have is that noob was implying you need a check just to go up normal stairs, and you (olskool) were essentially corroborating it with needing a check to open doors. But normal doors don't need checks, just the stuck ones.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If Chris Baskins is right it's the Lost Mines of Phandelver.

Several of the items were "awarded" by the Deck of Many Things found in the Goblin Cave on our first session... Monty haul DMs (shakes head)....

But even the canon DoMT can't give a +5 weapon--those explicitly don't exist. +3 is as high as it goes without homebrew (in which case the DM never read the DMG which strongly warns against doing so).

[Particle_Man]

The Ritual Caster FEAT or you multiclass the Barbarian with another class.

Feats and multi-class rules are optional; not all dms use them and not all players use them even when they are allowed by a DM.

[olskool]

But even the canon DoMT can't give a +5 weapon--those explicitly don't exist. +3 is as high as it goes without homebrew (in which case the DM never read the DMG which strongly warns against doing so).

Which is why I warned the original poster about the issues with "kids" coming in from video games like Skyrim, Assassin's Creed, or the other games that award "superpowers" during play. They expect a certain amount of "power increase" per session which can break a game like D&D5e without hard limits on power. These issues are why I ALWAYS removed Limited Wish, Wish, or any Alter Reality Spell with permanent effects from my Spell Lists. These spells will break an AD&D game.

Overall, the game has some promise for a class-based game system. I'd just have to tweak some spells, nerf FEATS, and reintroduce a few concepts from 2e that will suit 5e even better.

[Knaight]

Which is why I warned the original poster about the issues with "kids" coming in from video games like Skyrim, Assassin's Creed, or the other games that award "superpowers" during play. They expect a certain amount of "power increase" per session which can break a game like D&D5e without hard limits on power. These issues are why I ALWAYS removed Limited Wish, Wish, or any Alter Reality Spell with permanent effects from my Spell Lists. These spells will break an AD&D game.

These "kids" are largely coming in from games with power progressions vastly lower than any edition of D&D, and if we want to talk about superpowers the entire spell system from day 1 has been exactly that.

Overall, the game has some promise for a class-based game system. I'd just have to tweak some spells, nerf FEATS, and reintroduce a few concepts from 2e that will suit 5e even better.

Feats* are entirely optional, so you can just not use them.

*Why the capitalization? It's not an acronym.

[olskool]

These "kids" are largely coming in from games with power progressions vastly lower than any edition of D&D, and if we want to talk about superpowers the entire spell system from day 1 has been exactly that.


Feats* are entirely optional, so you can just not use them.

*Why the capitalization? It's not an acronym.

The Spell power progression is one of the things that drove me away from AD&D to other systems in the early '90s.

I did, in fact, tell the OP to NOT use FEATS because they are not entirely "optimized" yet in my first post. Unfortunately, most of the younger player DEMAND they are used in our local gaming community. The OP may have trouble recruiting players if he doesn't use them or he may have to deal with them as a player.

Capitalization of FEATS is a habit from another forum that I've been posting in for years. It is used to indicate or single out a game mechanic in your text so the reader knows you're discussing something about that mechanic. You will also see be doing it for words like ACTIONS (usually referring to either initiative or an action type), or EFFECTS (like for spell effects). Old habits die hard.

[Malifice]

Wait, how do you focus on the short rest players, if you can the short rests at 2? Do you some days just say. Today you can take 3 short rests

One of the problems with short rests is the 1 hour time requirement. Many parties are reluctant to hole up for a whole hour in a hostile environment (i.e. a dungeon). In addition, our group finds sudden 1 hour breaks to be jarring and runs against the narrative.

A (largely handwaved) 5 minute 'quick map check, bind wounds, swig of water, breather and refocus' works better for both - it's not jarring to the senses (it makes sense that you'd spend a few minutes here or there while exploring a dungeon to stop and take a breather, bind some wounds, and then press on) and importantly it also encourages use of Short rests (players are more likely to pause for 5 minutes, than a whole hour).

The limit of 2 per short rest is because I tend to aim for a median of 6 encounters per long rest, with slightly more hard encounters than medium. That way 'short rest'resources are expected to last around 2 encounters, and 'long rest' resources around 6. I also dont want to see abuse of the 5 minute short rests (spaming them constantly).

When I math out class DPR and so forth, most classes balance around that mark (roughly 6 encounters per long rest of around 5 rounds each, with 2 short rests in that time) At the 3 short rests per long rest, the short rest classes start to pull in front of long rest classes.

On shorter adventuring days (3-5 encounters), the party can still reliably get 2 short rests. On days with just the single encounter, the long rest classes shine.

If you have a really long adventuring day (7+ encounters that day) you can always allow an extra short rest if you choose to provide a nice buff for the short rest classes and give them a day to shine. It's as simple as: 'it's been a long day fellas; you can all benefit from a short rest now if you want?'.

[Malifice]

As I said you still have average people have 20% chance of failing to climb stairs..

Wut?

Climbing stairs is 'no check required' Same with climbing ladders, or trees, or ropes with walls to brace on if you have time etc.

Do you honestly have PCs make checks to climb stairs?

A routine task is something an average person can do with little to no chance of failure. You dont roll for them, it just happens.

[Envyus]

If Chris Baskins is right it's the Lost Mines of Phandelver.

Several of the items were "awarded" by the Deck of Many Things found in the Goblin Cave on our first session... Monty haul DMs (shakes head)....

Deck of Many Things can't award +5 items. It also can't be found in the Goblin Cave, in fact there are no Magic Items in the Goblin Cave.

All the issues you are bringing up are entirely the fault of your DM not the game. Edit: Also there was no way for your Familar to get trapped in a gem in the Dragon's Hoard ether.

But I do ask why you were having the Wizard try to bash the stuck doors, when you likely have stronger party member that could do it instead. (And be assisted at it)

Everything I am saying is kind of stupid

None of this stuff works the way you are saying it does, I don't get why you are being obtuse, if there are no stakes you don't roll. Stairs can't impede characters. The very easy DC only applies to tasks that have a chance of failure. Why are you trying to muck up this thread

Unfortunately they aren't good adventures.

Heavily disagree. There are quite a few good solid adventures here.


Anyway to to help the OP D&D Beyond is the place for you to get digital copies of the game as other people have said. As no one else has I will provide a link https://www.dndbeyond.com/

[Particle_Man]

Personally, having grown up with first edition and b/x and played through all other editions I think that fifth ed is great. I have both run it and played it.

[Malifice]

Personally, having grown up with first edition and b/x and played through all other editions I think that fifth ed is great. I have both run it and played it.

I started on BECMI in the early 80's. Moved to AD&D, then 2nd editon, then 3rd and 3.P. Skipped 4E (played it a few times, but it wasnt for me) and 5E then brought me back.

It's the best edition of the game yet. Has all the strengths of those earlier editions, while learning from a lot of the mistakes those earlier edtions made.

Still some wonkiness in some areas (I would have preferred more skill mechanics like abilities that let you treat a roll of 2-8 as an 8 - a mechanism that protects bounded accuracy, leaves room for failure, while making skilled PCs look pretty a mazing, and the DMG needs a re-write, but otherwise it's a fantastic system that feels like DnD.

[Ignimortis]

It's the best edition of the game yet. Has all the strengths of those earlier editions, while learning from a lot of the mistakes those earlier edtions made.

Still some wonkiness in some areas (I would have preferred more skill mechanics like abilities that let you treat a roll of 2-8 as an 8 - a mechanism that protects bounded accuracy, leaves room for failure, while making skilled PCs look pretty amazing, and the DMG needs a re-write, but otherwise it's a fantastic system that feels like DnD.

That much is questionable. It doesn't have either 3.P's strengths (absolute tons of content, fun subsystems, incredibly wide and steep power curve from level 1 to level 20) or 4e's strengths (tactical combat, attempts at giving everyone fun stuff to use often). I'm not as well-versed in 2e, which might also be better in some aspects. It also feels like D&D mostly if your ideal of D&D is E6 for 3.5, or the first ten to twelve levels of AD&D. Personally, 5e to me feels like maybe 25% of D&D, like the first tome of the trilogy that never goes anywhere after that.

I'd say that 5e is the most tolerable to people who like different editions but want to play together, and noob-friendly. But if I ever want to run a campaign again, it will be a heavily houseruled 3.P, not 5e, because even then I would have to do much more work on 5e to make it as good as 3.5 for my vision of D&D.

But 5e is good for those DMs who used to plague 3.5 with their "low-magic, grim quasi-heroic fantasy game" nonsense (and believe me, those people were abundant and I'd say that before 5e came out, about 70% of the games I've seen recruiting online were like that), because 5e actually works for them.

[roryb]

I’m getting a good picture, especially from those who share my particular demographic, so thank you all for the responses.

Perhaps a last question from me... How much investment does it require compared to other versions in terms of: time to grok to DM-level confidence (if perhaps a shaky one), prepare sessions (from scratch adventure)? I suspect less than 3e or 4, but more than 1e/2e. Am I wrong? What are the rule reference demands during play? No worse than 2e, or more?

I do have the basic rules now, so thanks for the recommendations. I may get to the starter set if I’m still drawn to it and go through the adventure there next.

[Knaight]

Perhaps a last question from me... How much investment does it require compared to other versions in terms of: time to grok to DM-level confidence (if perhaps a shaky one), prepare sessions (from scratch adventure)? I suspect less than 3e or 4, but more than 1e/2e. Am I wrong? What are the rule reference demands during play? No worse than 2e, or more?

It looks like it would probably be the easiest to get from scratch, but I can't really say as it was hardly the first system I learned. Or in the first 50, for that matter, which has thrown off my sense of system learning ease a bit. That said it's not the first system you're learning either, and the core system concepts are similar enough to other D&D editions to learn particularly easily once you know them.

Generally the more systems you know the easier it is to learn one more, especially if they're not particularly far from your existing base of familiarity (knowing every edition of D&D doesn't make jumping to GURPS much easier, knowing D&D+GURPS doesn't make learning Dramasystem earlier, etc.). All D&D editions are pretty tightly clustered here, and 5e is at a bit of a middle point in that cluster.

[Theodoric]

Perhaps a last question from me... How much investment does it require compared to other versions in terms of: time to grok to DM-level confidence (if perhaps a shaky one), prepare sessions (from scratch adventure)? I suspect less than 3e or 4, but more than 1e/2e. Am I wrong? What are the rule reference demands during play? No worse than 2e, or more?

5e doesn't have much in the ways of tables to memorise or reference. The core mechanics not being terribly deep helps a lot here. A 5e DM needs to adjucate quite a few things, but that's got more to do with confidence and judgement than needing to know fiddly modifiers. Once you know how to set a skill check DC and how Advantage/Disadvantage works you're pretty much good to go.

Session prep is probably a bit more than 4e (which was very plug-and-play, especially for monsters) and less than 3e, but it really depends on your DM-ing style. There's such a thing as over-preparation, and 5e's flexible enough that you can improvise without having to dive into the PHB/DMG to figure out how every time (seriously, I mostly look at my DM screen for conditions and alcohol prices). You can run 5e adventures with a loose script and do well.

[noob]

5e doesn't have much in the ways of tables to memorise or reference. The core mechanics not being terribly deep helps a lot here. A 5e DM needs to adjucate quite a few things, but that's got more to do with confidence and judgement than needing to know fiddly modifiers. Once you know how to set a skill check DC and how Advantage/Disadvantage works you're pretty much good to go.

Session prep is probably a bit more than 4e (which was very plug-and-play, especially for monsters) and less than 3e, but it really depends on your DM-ing style. There's such a thing as over-preparation, and 5e's flexible enough that you can improvise without having to dive into the PHB/DMG to figure out how every time (seriously, I mostly look at my DM screen for conditions and alcohol prices). You can run 5e adventures with a loose script and do well.

You can also run 3.5 adventures with a lose script and do well.
Both 5e and 3.5 change when the adventurers reach too high level and stops being possible to play with a lose script(In 5e when the wizard can start recruiting an army and gains the kind of spells that kills armies and teleportation then it starts becoming a weird strategy game and in 3.5 the problem is not as much with armies but rather the get anywhere do anything factor where the adventurers can start using radar nets through the planet to find imprisoned people then dig toward those people or thousands of different options)

[EggKookoo]

Perhaps a last question from me... How much investment does it require compared to other versions in terms of: time to grok to DM-level confidence (if perhaps a shaky one), prepare sessions (from scratch adventure)? I suspect less than 3e or 4, but more than 1e/2e. Am I wrong? What are the rule reference demands during play? No worse than 2e, or more?

In general I'd say about the same as 2e. The game isn't all that different. If you're talking about combat encounters, be aware of a few specific things that change the action economy. Things like actions vs. bonus actions vs. reactions, and how the concentration mechanic works. Also, 5e uses the word "attack" often to mean a specific kind of action: an attack that uses an attack roll i.e. a d20 that is meant to overcome a target's AC. This can catch you if you're not aware of how the term is used. And sometimes characters get multiple attacks, which is not the same thing as multiple actions.

Regarding actions and bonus actions, a lot of players get confused about if they have a bonus action or what. I like my bucket-and-tag visualization: you have two buckets, one labeled action and another labeled bonus action. Everything you do has a tag on it with the same words: action or bonus action. Whenever you do something, you put the item in the bucket with the same tag. If you don't happen to have an item with a bonus action tag, you can't take a bonus action that turn. Otherwise you can. Each bucket can hold one item, and you empty them out at the beginning of the round.

If you get into the weeds, just post questions in the this forum. People are typically pretty helpful.

[mephnick]

It doesn't have either 3.P's strengths (absolute tons of content, fun subsystems, incredibly wide and steep power curve from level 1 to level 20).

These were also its greatest weaknesses. Tons of content that wasn't balanced, fun, or designed well, creating a massive barrier to entry. Tons of subsystems that bogged the system down to a muddy mess and a power curve that basically turned the game from standard D&D fantasy at low levels, to super hero rocket tag by level 5, to unplayable "choose your own reality" at 10+. High level 5e is still ridiculous, but it's at least manageable. I DMed 3.5/Pathfinder for almost a decade because it was the only game going in my small town and eventually just gave up. Got a small group of friends going on some less known systems and 5e brought me back to DnD after I swore it off.

[PhoenixPhyre]

These were also its greatest weaknesses. Tons of content that wasn't balanced, fun, or designed well, creating a massive barrier to entry. Tons of subsystems that bogged the system down to a muddy mess and a power curve that basically turned the game from standard D&D fantasy at low levels, to super hero rocket tag by level 5, to unplayable "choose your own reality" at 10+. High level 5e is still ridiculous, but it's at least manageable. I DMed 3.5/Pathfinder for almost a decade because it was the only game going in my small town and eventually just gave up. Got a small group of friends going on some less known systems and 5e brought me back to DnD after I swore it off.

I agree. Strengths and weaknesses are often (but not always) subjective. I'd rather have much less content but have that curated well. I'd take 10 options that all work over 100 options, of which 85 are crap and the rest are decent, even though that leaves 15 workable options. But I have to wade through 85 crap ones to get there, which spoils it for me.

The other big strength (IMO) of 5e is that the "sweet spot" for balance is relatively wide (despite what people say). You can pick up just about any supported "build" (within limits) and be fine, if not optimal. And the difference between fine and optimal is not that big outside of white-room scenarios (or the Sorcerer King!). Yes, there are theoretical weaknesses (hiring an army). But those very rarely come up in play, because most scenarios don't allow for it--either there's no where to buy an army, no time to buy an army and get them into position, no room to put an army near the objective, or the whole thing revolves around armies in the first place. As well, there's a firm culture of table pressure--instead of "the rules say I can, so you can't stop me" individual entitlement mentality, it's more of a "Nah, that's not fun for everyone" group-consensus mentality where the DM can easily put a stop to such shenanigans.

[opaopajr]

As a "grognard" it is the only version of WotC D&D I will deign to play, it's that good. It's even better houseruled!

[Ignimortis]

These were also its greatest weaknesses. Tons of content that wasn't balanced, fun, or designed well, creating a massive barrier to entry. Tons of subsystems that bogged the system down to a muddy mess and a power curve that basically turned the game from standard D&D fantasy at low levels, to super hero rocket tag by level 5, to unplayable "choose your own reality" at 10+. High level 5e is still ridiculous, but it's at least manageable. I DMed 3.5/Pathfinder for almost a decade because it was the only game going in my small town and eventually just gave up. Got a small group of friends going on some less known systems and 5e brought me back to DnD after I swore it off.

As I've said, 5e is fine for people who didn't want 3.5 to go beyond level 6 or so (and probably was made at least with them in mind). As someone already said on these forums, 5e is basically E6 stretched out over 20 levels. And I don't know how high-level 5e is ridiculous, really. It's very, incredibly tame even at level 14. I've never had a chance to play at level 17+, but I doubt things change that much.

Subsystems were the best thing about 3.5, IMO, because the most unbalanced piece of crap in 3.5 was the PHB. If you ditched the PHB classes and retained, say, Bard, Barbarian and Rogue out of it, and then used the splatbooks, you could make a much better game than a Core-only game. 5e just doesn't bother about expanding or changing the conventions set up in 5e PHB, and it shows. 3.5 was open to experimentation to some degree, and we got gems like ToB and Binders and proper Warlocks out of it, which the new editions promptly ditched and were worse off for it (5e Warlocks are terrible compared to 3.5 Warlocks, and while 4e Fighters tried to be Warblades, Warblades and their martial adept ilk were probably the most fun I ever had with D&D).

I agree. Strengths and weaknesses are often (but not always) subjective. I'd rather have much less content but have that curated well. I'd take 10 options that all work over 100 options, of which 85 are crap and the rest are decent, even though that leaves 15 workable options. But I have to wade through 85 crap ones to get there, which spoils it for me.
.

That's a difference in views, I think. I never actually bothered to "search for the best things", and instead worked out a concept and then looked for things that would enable that concept. 3.5 was much, much better at enabling concepts than 5e. It wasn't as good at keeping them at an equal power level, but it's to be expected, seeing as there are just so many more possible concepts.

[Willie the Duck]

Hmm, that’s somewhat troubling. Are the guidelines for balance easy, and do they work?

It is worth noting that a lot of the ways that 5e is considered 'easy' are akin to a video-game with 'easy,' 'medium,' and 'hard,' on the start-up screen, with the cursor by default pointing to the 'easy' selection. The game is, by default, easy, but it has very well established rules right there in the Dungeon Master's Guide explaining (and encouraging) people to take actions to up the challenge level through fairly straightforward methods (increase the challenge of encounters, slow down the recuperation of expended resources, lower the magical treasure benefits, use some of the more stringent optional rules, etc.).

It's crazy, cause narrative type games have been around forever, and have been super popular since VtM came out 28 years ago, but modern (newer) roleplayers seem to think that they didn't exist until the PbtA games.

Using the game to recreate LotR or Prince Valiant or Arthur and Merlin or whatnot has been part of the game since before the little brown books made it to the printer in '74. The idea that 'old school' was exclusively playing the game like a dungeon-crawling game where your characters were glorified board game pieces and no narrative action took place is a retroactive revision that some in the hobby like to perpetuate for tribalism-related reasons.

Perhaps a last question from me... How much investment does it require compared to other versions in terms of: time to grok to DM-level confidence (if perhaps a shaky one), prepare sessions (from scratch adventure)? I suspect less than 3e or 4, but more than 1e/2e. Am I wrong? What are the rule reference demands during play? No worse than 2e, or more?

I do have the basic rules now, so thanks for the recommendations. I may get to the starter set if I’m still drawn to it and go through the adventure there next.

I would recommend the starter adventure. As to prep time, honestly once you recognize that you are learning a new system and will have to learn it rather than use your old skill-based without modification, I don't think that there is any specific D&D that would be faster. Even B/X, you still need to learn how much your players' characters can actually take on, about save-or-dies, and a bunch of other things which require DM's gaining skill as much as the nuances of 5e.