MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

[lio45]

My best, most refined explanation is that Rich wanted a naga because of the glowing eyes thing, found the strongest one in the books available to him at the time, shrunk it down to normal naga size and handwaved the strength penalties.

I'll agree with you that it's a plausible hypothesis..... for the process of, at the time of strip ~100, retroactively determining what MitD is after having already given it glowing yellow eyes.

The part where I disagree is the corollary that Rich, having decided for a naga (in the epic-est possible variant), would then, years later, go and show us readers the Tower Scene as is.

The Tower Scene sends a crystal clear message - MitD is, physically, incredibly powerful. For the record, I wasn't consulted on the lower limit being 30 STR - I find it laughably low. If I were the boss here, any creature with a meager 30 STR needn't apply ;)

It's perfectly plausible that Rich retroactively picked a naga at the time; it's not plausible to me that in all the years AFTER picking a naga, he's go and show things that are inconsistent with that choice.

[lio45]

I suppose my first goal is Shrodinger's goal.

Either:
A: Ha-naga makes it onto the FBS list.
or B: Glabrezu gets taken off.

I'm very open to your "B".

Also, regarding size - could 64 ft "tall" for Colossal mean merely 64 ft long for a snake? In which case, a (nearly-)standard-sized Ha-Naga, with his body coiled, could fit in a compact manner under that umbrella, maybe....?

Look at the (approx) linear length vs coiled volume ratio:



(random image from a google search; for full url, quote my post and you'll see it)

[Ruck]

I'll agree with you that it's a plausible hypothesis..... for the process of, at the time of strip ~100, retroactively determining what MitD is after having already given it glowing yellow eyes.

The part where I disagree is the corollary that Rich, having decided for a naga (in the epic-est possible variant), would then, years later, go and show us readers the Tower Scene as is.

The Tower Scene sends a crystal clear message - MitD is, physically, incredibly powerful. For the record, I wasn't consulted on the lower limit being 30 STR - I find it laughably low. If I were the boss here, any creature with a meager 30 STR needn't apply ;)

It's perfectly plausible that Rich retroactively picked a naga at the time; it's not plausible to me that in all the years AFTER picking a naga, he's go and show things that are inconsistent with that choice.

To all this I will add that I think it is extremely unlikely that "glowing yellow eyes" was the primary determining factor for Rich's choice.

[3Power]

I'll agree with you that it's a plausible hypothesis..... for the process of, at the time of strip ~100, retroactively determining what MitD is after having already given it glowing yellow eyes.

The part where I disagree is the corollary that Rich, having decided for a naga (in the epic-est possible variant), would then, years later, go and show us readers the Tower Scene as is.

The Tower Scene sends a crystal clear message - MitD is, physically, incredibly powerful. For the record, I wasn't consulted on the lower limit being 30 STR - I find it laughably low. If I were the boss here, any creature with a meager 30 STR needn't apply ;)

It's perfectly plausible that Rich retroactively picked a naga at the time; it's not plausible to me that in all the years AFTER picking a naga, he's go and show things that are inconsistent with that choice.

Which brings us back to the start of the disagreement again - subjective interpretations of the tower scene and how likely it was for Rich to base the physical comedy on rules that rarely come up in the game itself.

27 Strength is 2 points stronger than the standard D&D cap for magically non-enhanced strength. An average Ha-naga is 8 times stronger than an Average Half Orc. I could imagine a raging thog pulling off the tower scene himself at level 20.

To all this I will add that I think it is extremely unlikely that "glowing yellow eyes" was the primary determining factor for Rich's choice.

And I'm sure that opinion has nothing all to do with the fact that your primary choice is a monster for whom the eyes are the single greatest inconsistency.

[Keltest]

Which brings us back to the start of the disagreement again - subjective interpretations of the tower scene and how likely it was for Rich to base the physical comedy on rules that rarely come up in the game itself.

27 Strength is 2 points stronger than the standard D&D cap for magically non-enhanced strength. An average Ha-naga is 8 times stronger than an Average Half Orc. I could imagine a raging thog pulling off the tower scene himself at level 20.

And I'm sure that opinion has nothing all to do with the fact that your primary choice is a monster for whom the eyes are the single greatest inconsistency.

I think you've confused cause and effect there. Anyway, if you want to change something, move to initiate a vote. Yelling at us about how were obviously wrong is not going to get you what you want no matter how hard you yell.

[lio45]

To all this I will add that I think it is extremely unlikely that "glowing yellow eyes" was the primary determining factor for Rich's choice.

I disagree. The way I see it, at the time Rich decided to determine what the MitD was and stick with it, the feature list was quite short: "glowing yellow eyes", "fits in the space into which it's been shown to fit", "eyes naturally at the height from ground at which they're shown", and "totally epic and super scary (at least in theory)".

A super-epic, coiled giant snake with glowing yellow eyes would be a great choice at the time.

[Keltest]

I disagree. The way I see it, at the time Rich decided to determine what the MitD was and stick with it, the feature list was quite short: "glowing yellow eyes", "fits in the space into which it's been shown to fit", "eyes naturally at the height from ground at which they're shown", and "totally epic and super scary (at least in theory)".

A super-epic, coiled giant snake with glowing yellow eyes would be a great choice at the time.

Given that such a snake would need to uncoil in order to move, that seems unlikely.

[3Power]

I think you've confused cause and effect there. Anyway, if you want to change something, move to initiate a vote. Yelling at us about how were obviously wrong is not going to get you what you want no matter how hard you yell.

Alright, let's give it a whirl.

I propose a vote on whether or not "Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph" should be removed from the FBS list.

EDIT:

Given that such a snake would need to uncoil in order to move, that seems unlikely.

Not if it flies.

[lio45]

Which brings us back to the start of the disagreement again - subjective interpretations of the tower scene and how likely it was for Rich to base the physical comedy on rules that rarely come up in the game itself.

Thing is, it's almost guaranteed that Rich is especially careful with the messages he sends his readership whenever MitD is concerned.

Mr. Scruffy punches a dog and it flies away - rule of funny.
MitD is shown to be absolutely insanely powerful physically - serious message and serious clue about MitD.

Rich can't treat such clues lightly, he releases them at a snail's pace (like one every couple real life years, no exaggeration) and he knows the question of what that monster is is one of the centerpieces of the comic.

[lio45]

Given that such a snake would need to uncoil in order to move, that seems unlikely.

I may be wrong but at the time, MitD hadn't yet moved much, I believe.

[Ruck]

I disagree. The way I see it, at the time Rich decided to determine what the MitD was and stick with it, the feature list was quite short: "glowing yellow eyes", "fits in the space into which it's been shown to fit", "eyes naturally at the height from ground at which they're shown", and "totally epic and super scary (at least in theory)".

A super-epic, coiled giant snake with glowing yellow eyes would be a great choice at the time.

The way I see it, Rich cares more about the themes of the story he's telling than "glowing yellow eyes."

Thing is, it's almost guaranteed that Rich is especially careful with the messages he sends his readership whenever MitD is concerned.

Mr. Scruffy punches a dog and it flies away - rule of funny.
MitD is shown to be absolutely insanely powerful physically - serious message and serious clue about MitD.

Rich can't treat such clues lightly, he releases them at a snail's pace (like one every couple real life years, no exaggeration) and he knows the question of what that monster is is one of the centerpieces of the comic.

Yeah, absolutely. Why would Rich say "It is possible to guess" what species the MitD is, and then deliberately write scenes that seemingly contradict qualities of that species?

[Keltest]

I may be wrong but at the time, MitD hadn't yet moved much, I believe.

His latest appearance was him moving to catch up with Team Evil at the doors. While it is theoretically possible he is flying (which would explain the lack of tracks) it also begs the question of how he is holding the umbrella, paint can and paint brush with enough dexterity to paint marks on the doors without putting down the can (which would leave a mark in the snow).

The way I see it, Rich cares more about the themes of the story he's telling than "glowing yellow eyes."

I don't think youre wrong exactly, but given that Rich can change the story a lot cleaner than he can change something about the MITD, and that the MITD's specific powers are unlikely to be critical to the overall story (as opposed to the specific scenes which were almost certainly written after the MITD was chosen), I think he would probably pick something that matched the fairly minimal criteria and just write the story around that choice rather than change the monster because of some oddly important detail unique to his choice.

[lio45]

...

This actually sort of happened. Linneus did his best, but some of his classifications were very much off the mark. Even to this day, with much better tools such as DNA, some things have been known to be horrendously misclassified.

Heck, look into the story of whether a Panda Bear is or not a bear. Don't get an expert started on red pandas, either. Did you know that fungi are closer to animals than they are to plants? And that's not even scratching the surface of it.

In fact, did you know that giraffes were once considered half-leopard, half-camel? The clue is right there in their Greek name/species: camelopardalis. Now, imagine a world in which the people that thought that were gods capable of creating life that way.

(In all honesty, the Greek that named them that probably was working from a very poor description, on the lines of "with a neck like a camel but spotted as a leopard", rather than an actual mix of both... but these are the same people who believed in manticores, so YMMV)

I hadn't yet replied to this but yeah, absolutely.

ETA:


I am very much opposed to adding further classification groups, on the basis that it'll double the amount of people upset that their suggestion didn't make it, and double my workload, without making it any easier for a newcomer (indeed, it'll make it harder).

Grey Wolf

Oh, I definitely didn't want to add a further group; I was just going from memory, and the group I was referring to - second in order, after the FBS group - which I called "contenders with a major problem that needs to be addressed by anyone who wishes to propose them" is in fact "frequently proposed ideas which have a major problem".

I'm fine with that group, and I'm fine with the fact it's in second place in order of "fitness".

First place for fitness - FBS
Second place for fitness - the stuff that is fitting enough that it gets regularly proposed (Tarrasque, etc.)
Third place for fitness - the stuff that could fit (stuff such as "Ha-Naga before 3Power", etc.)
Fourth place - joke suggestions

... would be how I'd do it, if doing it from stratch now. For the record.

[lio45]

The way I see it, Rich cares more about the themes of the story he's telling than "glowing yellow eyes."

But we're talking about the Rich of 2004. He had a yet-undetermined monster, decided to choose what it was at that point (and start to turn his gag-a-day strip into a story) and one of the only things that were determined about it at that moment in time was "glowing yellow eyes".

[Keltest]

Oh, I definitely didn't want to add a further group; I was just going from memory, and the group I was referring to - second in order, after the FBS group - which I called "contenders with a major problem that needs to be addressed by anyone who wishes to propose them" is in fact "frequently proposed ideas which have a major problem".

I'm fine with that group, and I'm fine with the fact it's in second place in order of "fitness".

First place for fitness - FBS
Second place for fitness - the stuff that is fitting enough that it gets regularly proposed (Tarrasque, etc.)
Third place for fitness - the stuff that could fit (stuff such as "Ha-Naga before 3Power", etc.)
Fourth place - joke suggestions

... would be how I'd do it, if doing it from stratch now. For the record.

Given that the frequency of monster proposals almost always has little to nothing to do with how fitting of a candidate they are, I don't see why "frequently proposed" should be considered a measure of fitness.

[lio45]

Yeah, absolutely. Why would Rich say "It is possible to guess" what species the MitD is, and then deliberately write scenes that seemingly contradict qualities of that species?

Yeah, exactly.

Again from memory and from scratch, here's the inescapable basics in my opinion:

"Unusual" looks (Circus Scene)
Insanely physically powerful (Tower Scene)
More Epic than anything in that Tower of Good that Team Evil conquered
Fits under the umbrella
Has yellow eyes
Can make V and O-Chul pop away (Escape Scene)

[lio45]

Given that the frequency of monster proposals almost always has little to nothing to do with how fitting of a candidate they are

You've got to be joking. High frequency of proposal is a direct and clear proof that the suggestion is a compelling / fitting-at-first-sight one, whether you and I like it or not.

[3Power]

Thing is, it's almost guaranteed that Rich is especially careful with the messages he sends his readership whenever MitD is concerned.

Mr. Scruffy punches a dog and it flies away - rule of funny.
MitD is shown to be absolutely insanely powerful physically - serious message and serious clue about MitD.

Rich can't treat such clues lightly, he releases them at a snail's pace (like one every couple real life years, no exaggeration) and he knows the question of what that monster is is one of the centerpieces of the comic.

Nobody is denying the MitD is strong. What's being debated is "how strong, numerically, is strong?" I've given my opinion, you've given your opinion but the only opinion that matters is Rich's and we don't know what it was.

And my opinion on that is that it shouldn't matter, especially when the leaps of logic inherent in other FBS monsters are so much worse.

The way I see it, Rich cares more about the themes of the story he's telling than "glowing yellow eyes."

I think he designed a character, just like he did for the order. And then told their story.

Y'know, like a D&D player would do.

Also, do you honestly believe that at strip 100, Rich had the O-chul and Mitd plot all hashed out?

Yeah, absolutely. Why would Rich say "It is possible to guess" what species the MitD is, and then deliberately write scenes that seemingly contradict qualities of that species?

Yeah, why would he draw the Mitd with two eyes always in the same place for years when there are actually many eyes randomly jiggling all over his body?

His latest appearance was him moving to catch up with Team Evil at the doors. While it is theoretically possible he is flying (which would explain the lack of tracks) it also begs the question of how he is holding the umbrella, paint can and paint brush with enough dexterity to paint marks on the doors without putting down the can (which would leave a mark in the snow).

End of tail through hoop of can, grasping umbrella, while mage hand paints the doors.

EDIT:

I don't think youre wrong exactly, but given that Rich can change the story a lot cleaner than he can change something about the MITD, and that the MITD's specific powers are unlikely to be critical to the overall story (as opposed to the specific scenes which were almost certainly written after the MITD was chosen), I think he would probably pick something that matched the fairly minimal criteria and just write the story around that choice rather than change the monster because of some oddly important detail unique to his choice.

This.

But we're talking about the Rich of 2004. He had a yet-undetermined monster, decided to choose what it was at that point (and start to turn his gag-a-day strip into a story) and one of the only things that were determined about it at that moment in time was "glowing yellow eyes".

Yep.

[Keltest]

You've got to be joking. High frequency of proposal is a direct and clear proof that the suggestion is a compelling / fitting-at-first-sight one, whether you and I like it or not.

The tarrasque is frequently opposed simply because its an uber monster lots of people know rather than any actual abilities or qualities it has that make it fit. If theres a correlation, its a weak one.

[lio45]

His latest appearance was him moving to catch up with Team Evil at the doors. While it is theoretically possible he is flying (which would explain the lack of tracks) it also begs the question of how he is holding the umbrella, paint can and paint brush with enough dexterity to paint marks on the doors without putting down the can (which would leave a mark in the snow).

You misread my post. I said that at the time, MitD hadn't yet moved.

In fact, MitD could perfectly well have been a fully Colossal Ha-Naga all the way to Strip #147 where we see the very first occurrence of anything that could be called a "stretch":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html

[3Power]

The tarrasque is frequently opposed simply because its an uber monster lots of people know rather than any actual abilities or qualities it has that make it fit. If theres a correlation, its a weak one.

Also, 13 STR is much, much too low.

You misread my post. I said that at the time, MitD hadn't yet moved.

In fact, MitD could perfectly well have been a fully Colossal Ha-Naga all the way to Strip #147 where we see the very first occurrence of anything that could be called a "stretch":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html

Yep, hence why many strips later we got some hints that something fudge-y happened with the size, likely for that exact reason.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Mr. Scruffy punches a dog and it flies away - rule of funny.

Errr...

Mr. Scruffy was wearing a belt of giant strength at the time, explaining where his strength came from. But even with that, all he managed was to send the dog flying. Roy does that regularly with his foes, as befits his greater strength. What neither of them has managed to do, even with a belt of giant strength, is make them go through a wall in the process.

So no, I don't think rule of funny was involved there (satisfying, yes. Funny, as such, no).

You've got to be joking. High frequency of proposal is a direct and clear proof that the suggestion is a compelling / fitting-at-first-sight one, whether you and I like it or not.

No, those two are unrelated. Many, many people have independently suggested both the Tarrasque and the Snarl, despite both being terrible fits. But suggested them they have. The Frequently proposed category is just that: frequently proposed. If a creature is suggested independently by (eyeballed) three or more people over the course of time, I place it there so that other people thinking of proposing it are aware of their issues before bringing it up again. It has nothing to do with how well or bad they fit, and everything to do with the reality that, for wahtever reason, they come up a lot and thus it pays off to place them prominently so that new posters see them before restarting a topic that has been well plowed, saving them and us time by skipping to the bits that have not.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

But we're talking about the Rich of 2004. He had a yet-undetermined monster, decided to choose what it was at that point (and start to turn his gag-a-day strip into a story) and one of the only things that were determined about it at that moment in time was "glowing yellow eyes".

But at the point that happened, Rich planned the entire story out. He knew the species of MitD would be important, and he knew why it would be important. For him to say "Oh, but the perfect pick for the themes I want to use and the story I want to tell doesn't have two yellow eyes, oh well, I can't do this project that will take the next 20 years of my life the way I want to, because of a minor art decision I made back when I had no plan at all" doesn't make sense to me.

(Also, since we're talking about the Protean, I'll just say that quite a few plausible circumstances have been put forth as to why we always see MitD with two eyes in the same position; it's simply not the default state for a Protean. Besides that... I back it because there's no 100% perfect candidate and it's the one that to my thinking both requires the least amount of fudging and best fits the themes of the story.)

Errr...

Mr. Scruffy was wearing a belt of giant strength at the time, explaining where his strength came from. But even with that, all he managed was to send the dog flying. Roy does that regularly with his foes, as befits his greater strength. What neither of them has managed to do, even with a belt of giant strength, is make them go through a wall in the process.

I just wanted to look this up and confirm it, because I didn't remember it that way, so for anyone else who was similarly confused, Mr. Scruffy puts Sir Scraggly through an already-existing hole in the wall.

[Keltest]

But at the point that happened, Rich planned the entire story out. He knew the species of MitD would be important, and he knew why it would be important. For him to say "Oh, but the perfect pick for the themes I want to use and the story I want to tell doesn't have two yellow eyes, oh well, I can't do this project that will take the next 20 years of my life the way I want to, because of a minor art decision I made back when I had no plan at all" doesn't make sense to me.

(Also, since we're talking about the Protean, I'll just say that quite a few plausible circumstances have been put forth as to why we always see MitD with two eyes in the same position; it's simply not the default state for a Protean. Besides that... I back it because there's no 100% perfect candidate and it's the one that to my thinking both requires the least amount of fudging and best fits the themes of the story.)



I just wanted to look this up and confirm it, because I didn't remember it that way, so for anyone else who was similarly confused, Mr. Scruffy puts Sir Scraggly through an already-existing hole in the wall.

Personally I find it highly unlikely that rich would write a story about a creature before actually having picked what that creature is or what it can do. What would he have done if he couldn't find a monster that did what he needed it to do?

[Crusher]

I suppose my first goal is Shrodinger's goal.

Either:
A: Ha-naga makes it onto the FBS list.
or B: Glabrezu gets taken off.

I'm obviously going to prefer A, but I'm not going to be told "It can't be FBS because its not ugly enough and if you subtract 8+ from its strength it's not strong enough for the tower scene," when that also applies to something else on the list.

As for secondary goals I'd say remove the shlock mercenary monster from FBS and put it in the copyrighted creatures section where it belongs with a little asterisk about the copyright status, and reduce the hard limit for the tower scene to a soft 25. It'd be nice if something about size penalties not being considered were added too, for the sake of thoroughness.

Hrm, I'm going to disagree with B. We agree that a high STR is necessary for the Tower scene, and the Glabrezu's STR is far higher than the Ha-Naga's. If you scale the Ha-Naga down to Huge (or the Glabrezu up to Colossal), the Glabrezu's STR is 20 points higher than the Ha-Naga's, comparable to the difference between Roy and normal human child. These aren't creatures with comparable amounts of STR. The Ha-naga can fail w/o the Glabrezu also failing. In terms of appearance weirdness, I disagree but judging aesthetics isn't really my strong suit so I don't really weigh that very heavily.

I don't really have an opinion on the Carbosilicate Amorf. I don't read the strip and it doesn't have D&D stats, though it otherwise appears to be a good fit. There seems to be a plausible argument for why it'd be pretty much a unique exception to the copywrite rule, but it could be worth revisiting.

What's your argument for setting the STR limit at 25 rather than something lower? In other words, if a year from now, someone comes in with a candidate that seems like a good fit except that it has a 22 STR, how would you defend declaring 22 too low?

I can't get behind not considering size penalties, because there isn't a good reason for it. Oona says MitD is small, but doesn't say he isn't weaker than he would otherwise be. Saying it shouldn't be an issue because maybe Rich wants it that way is a non-starter since we don't know what he wants.

Finally, what do you consider "more actual contenders" for the FBS list? Are you going to propose them?

[Ruck]

Personally I find it highly unlikely that rich would write a story about a creature before actually having picked what that creature is or what it can do. What would he have done if he couldn't find a monster that did what he needed it to do?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but if I understand you correctly, I think the most important criteria for Rich picking MITD's species were "fits the story I want to tell in terms of themes and characterization" and "extremely powerful." So what the creature is and can do comes from that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I just wanted to look this up and confirm it, because I didn't remember it that way, so for anyone else who was similarly confused, Mr. Scruffy puts Sir Scraggly through an already-existing hole in the wall.

Oh, sorry, should've linked to it myself. "Scruffy punched a wolf through a wall" and "we saw the hand of MitD" are the two most common misreadings of evidence in the comic, when it comes to this thread.

Personally I find it highly unlikely that rich would write a story about a creature before actually having picked what that creature is or what it can do. What would he have done if he couldn't find a monster that did what he needed it to do?

I, on the other hand, think the reality is somewhere between those two extremes. He probably had an idea of where MitD would go (befriend a good guy, slowly realise his "friends" are nothing of the sort, whatever else is planned for him character-wise). He also figured how he'd interact with the Order (they need to recover Roy's body from him; he gets V & good guy out of Team Evil's clutches when V inevitably tries to pummel Xykon with raw magic, etc)

With those requirements in hand, he then went shopping for creatures. And he ended up picking one, which turned out to have access to some form of escape mechanism, was about the right size (if a bit too big), etc, around which he fleshed out the other details of the story - it turned out to have ludicrous strength, so in one scene, he punches Miko through a wall. He turned out to have ludicrous defences, so in two occasions heavy hitters do nothing to him, and so on. I.e. some characteristics were sine qua non for the story, but most others were not.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I propose adding an FEBS category, or "Fits the Even Bigger Scene!" Basically it eliminates literally every monster that doesn't have yellow glowing eyes. I also propose balloons to fall from the ceiling when we deduce the MitD.

[Crusher]

Also, 13 STR is much, much too low.

It doesn't have to go all the way down to Medium. The MitD could easily be larger than Medium and the FBS list leaves open the possibility of it being as large as Huge. A Huge-sized Tarrasque would have a STR of 29 which is too low, though it is close. Listing its size-adjusted STR of 13 is an unnecessary exaggeration.

But it hardly matters. The Tarrasque fails essentially every test except, maybe, the Circus scene and the toughness part of the Tower scene.

[Crusher]

I also propose balloons to fall from the ceiling when we deduce the MitD.

I totally agree with this part, but I admit I'm not sure how to implement it. I'm sure GW will think of something.