MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

[lio45]

I just realized that Baby Ha-Naga fits 6 out of the 7 criteria for FBS; the only one missing is the Tower Scene (it's just way too weak physically).

3Power, you want to try working on a better way to explain the Tower Scene than "if the housecat with a Belt of Giant Strength can do it for the sake of a gag, then those extra-loose standards also apply equally to that one rare moment of Rich deliberately lifting a bit of the curtain on his MitD for us readers"?

[Keltest]

I recognize that the conversation has moved away from this somewhat, but I think for the purposes of how Rich would write his story, we can treat "baby" and "child" as synonymous. I think its highly unlikely that he would make a distinction between "equivalent of 2 years old" and "equivalent of 10 years old" for the purposes of whether they should be statted and encountered.

The MITD may be child-like, but its been demonstrated he is capable of higher levels of thought and introspection than that, even if he prefers not to.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think, by "laughed out", he means "was harshly criticized", regardless of being put in the first post. I...Don't quite grasp the logic, but there you go.

I really don't care at this point. I am so tired of people misrepresenting how the thread works, or their inability to separate criticism of a proposal from criticism of a poster's style.

Grey Wolf

[Aveline]

One important detail that I think is being overlooked in the present conversation about MitD's strength:

He intentionally hit Miko as lightly as he could, and that is what sent her and Windstriker both through the wall.

I think it is disingenuous to use examples of a buffed housecat, a buffed human, or a buffed orc using all their might in throwing an opponent through structural elements, when suggesting a minimal strength score.

MitD is so strong, he couldn't possibly hit anyone more weakly.

[Crusher]

I also can't see Ha-Naga being the solution, but then I can't see Glabrezu being the solution either; I can understand 3Power's irritation at seeing Ha-Naga getting laughed out of the thread while Glabrezu is considered one of the best fits.

I have to disagree with this. Thr Ha-Naga was absolutely taken seriously as a candidate, it simply didn't pass. In no sense was it laughed out. You want something that was laughed out, go back a few threads and find the proposal for the templated giant space hamster or the centaur.

And multiple people have gone well out of their way to be polite and considerate to 3Power, which he has only intermittently returned.

[Ruck]

I recognize that the conversation has moved away from this somewhat, but I think for the purposes of how Rich would write his story, we can treat "baby" and "child" as synonymous. I think its highly unlikely that he would make a distinction between "equivalent of 2 years old" and "equivalent of 10 years old" for the purposes of whether they should be statted and encountered.

The MITD may be child-like, but its been demonstrated he is capable of higher levels of thought and introspection than that, even if he prefers not to.

Where does "child" stop? Vaarsuvius killed a Young Black Dragon who was (the equivalent of) a teenager-- that obviously had stats.

I stand by the original point that anything that has to be shrunk to baby-size to fit in the space MitD occupies is not going to be the answer.

There exists a certain level of approximation at which I would answer "yes" (in which case, they, as the same concept, would be the alternative to "an adult").

I don't know why you would assume zimmerwald was speaking imprecisely, or why you would assume he used "baby" to mean "child."

[lio45]

One important detail that I think is being overlooked in the present conversation about MitD's strength:

He intentionally hit Miko as lightly as he could, and that is what sent her and Windstriker both through the wall.

I think it is disingenuous to use examples of a buffed housecat, a buffed human, or a buffed orc using all their might in throwing an opponent through structural elements, when suggesting a minimal strength score.

MitD is so strong, he couldn't possibly hit anyone more weakly.

It's not being overlooked - in fact it has been pointed out most recently by The Aboleth not longer ago than "earlier this very afternoon" (or, for a more time-zone-neutral phrasing, only a number of hours ago).

It's also implicit in all of my "The Tower Scene unarguably and crystal clearly establishes that MitD is insanely powerful physically".

[lio45]

In no sense was it laughed out. You want something that was laughed out, go back a few threads and find the proposal for the templated giant space hamster or the centaur.

I didn't think you guys would take it that literally (and be offended), but okay, I'm not going to make enemies of you and (more than already) Grey Wolf just for the sake of one colorfully-worded turn of phrase, so let me withdraw it.

Let me say this though - it does seem that the barrier to entry that the Ha-Naga is facing is higher than the one the Glabrezu faced. (Among other reasons, a plausible explanation for this is the FBS criteria pre-dating how Good MitD actually turned out to be after all his time with O-Chul.)

This isn't that unnatural, given that once something's in there, it's unlikely to be ever taken off unless it's REALLY incompatible with new evidence, and that the standards to which we're holding new candidates should on average get refined and improved with time.

[Keltest]

Where does "child" stop? Vaarsuvius killed a Young Black Dragon who was (the equivalent of) a teenager-- that obviously had stats.

I stand by the original point that anything that has to be shrunk to baby-size to fit in the space MitD occupies is not going to be the answer.

Young Adult. Its in the name there. He was the equivalent of somebody in the very late teens to early 20s.

[lio45]

I stand by the original point that anything that has to be shrunk to baby-size to fit in the space MitD occupies is not going to be the answer.

Really?

Personally, if that's a contender's only flaw, all my money's on it in a heartbeat.

[Crusher]

I’n also going to defend the Glabrezu a bit. By the FBS standards it does pretty well.

As an aside, It probably has been a few years since they were established, but it was a very substantial undertaking and I doubt GW is in a hurry to revamp them for no reason other than “its been a while”. Every single criteria was extensively debated and ultimately voted on. Which is why its so weird when people pile onto GW for upholding the thread rules. As he pointed our earlier, GW voted AGAINST accepting Huge size creatures, but it passed anyway and now he gets crap for it.

Anyway, back on topic, the Glabrezu is strong enough (barely), its defenses are good enough (barely), its small enough (barely), its weird enough looking (barely) and it can cast Wish. By that standard, its a heck of a strong fit.

Sure, if you change the criteria it might become a worse fit, but you can’t just arbitrarily do that.

[Crusher]

One important detail that I think is being overlooked in the present conversation about MitD's strength:

He intentionally hit Miko as lightly as he could, and that is what sent her and Windstriker both through the wall.

I think it is disingenuous to use examples of a buffed housecat, a buffed human, or a buffed orc using all their might in throwing an opponent through structural elements, when suggesting a minimal strength score.

MitD is so strong, he couldn't possibly hit anyone more weakly.

I agree with most of this. Reading through the analysis on minimum STR, many assumptions were made almost all of which were made to pull the minimum DOWN. Really, unless you assume the MitD has a number of specific feats, the minimum STR should be, iirc, more like 50+.

I think there’d be some support for raising the minimum STR (which would probably get rid of a couple of the FBS candidates, including the Glabrezu which I just defended). I agree wih GW that its nice to have a decent number of FBS candidates (having it be zero would be awkward), but that might be evened out by slightly reducing the weight of other criteria, perhaps elevating things that are strong enough, thiugh weak in other areas like the Zodar.

[lio45]

As an aside, It probably has been a few years since they were established, but it was a very substantial undertaking and I doubt GW is in a hurry to revamp them for no reason other than “its been a while”.

As I mentioned, it's not really "it's been a while" but rather "these criteria seem to predate the surfacing of new evidence".

MitD hasn't been since in comic for at least a couple real-life years, so those are years which aren't going to make anything in this thread age. Conversely, if we get a month or two of Team Evil updates, the OP may well require major modifications after that.

[lio45]

I think there’d be some support for raising the minimum STR (which would probably get rid of a couple of the FBS candidates, including the Glabrezu which I just defended). I agree wih GW that its nice to have a decent number of FBS candidates (having it be zero would be awkward), but that might be evened out by slightly reducing the weight of other criteria, perhaps elevating things that are strong enough, thiugh weak in other areas like the Zodar.

[bold mine]

Personally, I wouldn't mind that tradeoff at all. As mentioned already, I think the Tower Scene is an incredibly clear message.

(to clarify - a clear message that MitD was incredibly strong at that moment, therefore can be incredibly strong (even when he doesn't want to / mean to). If he doesn't actually have insanely high STR, then a plausible alternative explanation is required [I haven't yet seen any, for the record. "Inadvertently cast a spell of Absolutely Insane Strength on himself" doesn't really cut it].)

[Crusher]

I didn't think you guys would take it that literally (and be offended), but okay, I'm not going to make enemies of you and (more than already) Grey Wolf just for the sake of one colorfully-worded turn of phrase, so let me withdraw it.

Let me say this though - it does seem that the barrier to entry that the Ha-Naga is facing is higher than the one the Glabrezu faced. (Among other reasons, a plausible explanation for this is the FBS criteria pre-dating how Good MitD actually turned out to be after all his time with O-Chul.)

This isn't that unnatural, given that once something's in there, it's unlikely to be ever taken off unless it's REALLY incompatible with new evidence, and that the standards to which we're holding new candidates should on average get refined and improved with time.

On the “laughed out”, I understand your intention better now, thank you for clarifying. I think the response was strong because “laughed out” implies the community didn't take the Ha-Naga seriously and was overtly rude to 3Power. That exact point was the core of like 5 pages of 3Powers’ argument, with him claiming the community was trying to silence him and stifle dissent and newcomers. In fact we did take it entirely seriously, and welcome new people and ideas. We just didn’t agree the Ha-Naga was a good candidate, which he took personally.

I know you just meant “laughed out” to be colorful, but it recalled something recent and contentious and that got your overall point off on the wrong foot.

[lio45]

I think there’d be some support for raising the minimum STR (which would probably get rid of a couple of the FBS candidates, including the Glabrezu which I just defended).

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that section 1e of the OP would disqualify the Glabrezu, actually.

Section 1e: MitD's Alignment

Spoiler

Show

The best that can be said about MitD's species' alignment is that it is unlikely to be Good, since RedCloak would not have recruited a Good creature to protect the goblin village given his rather dim views on the Good alignment.

This, however, is a very weak argument, since it can be argued that MitD was not, at the time, Good. Also, consider that MitD's alignment and his species' need not match. As such, knowing MitD's actual alignment brings us no closer to knowing his species' alignment and, thus, for the purposes of this thread, this is a barren path of inquiry.

The only exception to this is alignment when applied to morality plane denizens (i.e. angels, demons, etc.). Rich commented on this topic in DStP:

It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.

The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, a slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even).

From the above, we know that angels and demons (unlike other outsiders) are embodiments of their own morality planes. Yes, they can change their alignment, but only slightly, and when doing so it serves the purposes of their other alignment. And even then, it is a very rare and line-pushing experiment. The embodiments of the morality planes are as follows:

Lawful Evil: Baatezu/Devils	Lawful Neutral: Formians, Inevitables, Modrons	Lawful Good: Archons
Neutral Evil: Yugoloths/Daemons	True Neutral: Rilmani	Neutral Good: Guardinals
Chaotic Evil: Tanar'ri/Demons	Chaotic Neutral: Slaadi	Chaotic Good: Eladrin

Since MitD has performed both good and evil acts, it is very unlikely he is an embodiment of either Good or Evil.

[Crusher]

As I mentioned, it's not really "it's been a while" but rather "these criteria seem to predate the surfacing of new evidence".

MitD hasn't been since in comic for at least a couple real-life years, so those are years which aren't going to make anything in this thread age. Conversely, if we get a month or two of Team Evil updates, the OP may well require major modifications after that.

I completely agree with your second paragraph. The first one I agree with in principle, but I’m not sure I’d agree with your specifics.

For example, I don’t agree that the MitD is Good. I’m not saying he *isn’t* Good, simply that we don’t have enough evidence to know. For example, iirc, O’Chul calls him “good” not “Good”, which is an important distinction implying behavior rather than planar allegiance. Also, even if O’Chul intended it that way, we don’t know for sure that O’chul actually knew what MitD is.

Second, I think (sorry if I’m wrong, on phone and bad at checking things) you proposed getting rid of category 4 (the impossible categories). I completely disagree with that. Those categories all represent things MitD has shown clear evidence of “not being”. For example, he eats and sleeps, therefore he is not a construct. I haven’t seen evidence to overturn any of those, though you might disagree.

Finally, I understand the appeal of re-statting monsters as younger versions. Semantics of baby vs child aside, we have significant evidence MitD is not a fully-grown member of its species. The problem I wrestle with is HOW specifically to define this, because this thread is entirely about making order out of chaos. We take evidence and quantify it auch that we can use it as evaluative criteria on candidates (this thread is kind of a bit linear programming exercise).

Sadly, Dragons are the only monsters on which we have detailed info on how their powers adjust with age (well, mostly. I’m sure there are a couple non-dragons but I don’t recall them atm). So then the problem becomes, if immature Glabrezu exist (which they might not, but this is just an example) they’d probably be smaller and weaker but how else would they be different?

Would their DR be affected? What about their ability to cast Wish? We don’t know any of that, meaning everything has to be argued via ill-defined rules which we might interpret ine way today and differently a year from now. Its chaos, which is bad.

And yet, its something we think is almost certainly the case. I’m personally really conflicted on it and I suspect others are as well.

[Keltest]

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that section 1e of the OP would disqualify the Glabrezu, actually.

Maybe so, but the MITD's personal alignment is listed as one of two things under the "inappropriate topics" subsection. Personally, I think he's not going to be a Glabrezu for just, so many reasons, but theyre almost all narrative based rather than data driven. As long as its a technical fit for the big scenes, im content to leave it there.

Also, and unrelated, ive been pondering the SBGH scene, and im wondering if we can conclude that the MITD is not an extraplanar entity from it? your Stereotypical Big Game Hunter is a learned expert of the native world, but has no specific expertise on other topics. Therefore if it was recognized under the knowledge set of the SBGH, that would imply that it, at least, has a habitat on the Prime rather than in one of the other planes. Does that make sense, or is my brain just having a short circuit?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Let me say this though - it does seem that the barrier to entry that the Ha-Naga is facing is higher than the one the Glabrezu faced. (Among other reasons, a plausible explanation for this is the FBS criteria pre-dating how Good MitD actually turned out to be after all his time with O-Chul.)

No, it is facing the exact same barriers. It is just much bigger and sufficiently weaker that it doesn't pass them.

Also, do you know who was the first person to suggest that embodiments of evil shouldn't be considered for FBS status? Me. And do you know why it is NOT an FBS criteria? Because the consensus was against it.

Oh, and by the way, the Ha-Naga was not only not laughed out or whatever other lees insulting variation thereof you care to come up with. It was not even proposed by 3powers, as I showed when I linked to the original proposal a few pages back. And this was a time when the FBS was a lot more forgiving, and even half the tests everyone agreed it was an ok but not spectacular proposal.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that section 1e of the OP would disqualify the Glabrezu, actually.

Heh, yes and no. On the one hand, I’d call that the Glabrezu’s biggest weakness (and it has several), and that kept the Glabrezu off the FBS list for years (that, plus we didn’t know for a long time whether demons ate or had parents).

On the other hand, it wasn’t voted in as an FBS criteria. Why? Because thats how the community voted (and that change is what led to it being reconsidered and bumped up). Strengthening that, recently seen in-strip a deva (an embodiment of LG) go on vacation, get drunk and get it on (not in the human sense, but they certainly procreated) with a Slaad, which is a pretty non-LG thing to do. Yet the deva still exists and even feels comfortable discussing it openly, so there might be more flexibility than we first thought.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Heh, yes and no. On the one hand, I’d call that the Glabrezu’s biggest weakness (and it has several), and that kept the Glabrezu off the FBS list for years (that, plus we didn’t know for a long time whether demons ate or had parents).

On the other hand, it wasn’t voted in as an FBS criteria. Why? Because thats how the community voted (and that change is what led to it being reconsidered and bumped up). Strengthening that, recently seen in-strip a deva (an embodiment of LG) go on vacation, get drunk and get it on (not in the human sense, but they certainly procreated) with a Slaad, which is a pretty non-LG thing to do. Yet the deva still exists and even feels comfortable discussing it openly, so there might be more flexibility than we first thought.

I believe I was told (by Kish?) that Devas are only defined as Good, and their L-C alignment can be any of the three. SInce this Deva serves the almost-certainly-Chaotic Thor, it's likely it was a CG Deva.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Anyway, back on topic, the Glabrezu is strong enough (barely), its defenses are good enough (barely), its small enough (barely), its weird enough looking (barely) and it can cast Wish. By that standard, its a heck of a strong fit.

I feel an obligation to point out the imprecision in the one you didn't stick "barely" on.

That is: The glabrezu cannot cast Wish. The glabrezu can grant a Wish to a single humanoid. If, at that moment, O-Chul was thinking "I wish this elf and I were with Hinjo"...well, I find it kind of strains credibility that he wasn't thinking, instead, something like "I wish I could smash Xykon into tiny pieces," me.

(Though not nearly as badly as does the idea that the creature might have granted the Wish to Vaarsuvius instead of O-Chul, so there's that.)

[NoHaxJustPi]

It could have been a vague wish, something along the lines of: "I wish I weren't about to die"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I feel an obligation to point out the imprecision in the one you didn't stick "barely" on.

That is: The glabrezu cannot cast Wish. The glabrezu can grant a Wish to a single humanoid. If, at that moment, O-Chul was thinking "I wish this elf and I were with Hinjo"...well, I find it kind of strains credibility that he wasn't thinking, instead, something like "I wish I could smash Xykon into tiny pieces," me.

How about "I wish I wasn't about to die without passing on the valuable info I have to someone that can use it to destroy this bastard"?

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

I believe I was told (by Kish?) that Devas are only defined as Good, and their L-C alignment can be any of the three. SInce this Deva serves the almost-certainly-Chaotic Thor, it's likely it was a CG Deva.

Grey Wolf

Oh, was it? I missed that, my mistake.

[lio45]

How about "I wish I wasn't about to die without passing on the valuable info I have to someone that can use it to destroy this bastard"?

Grey Wolf

Would that bring V along, though?

(Don't get me wrong, it's still a good hypothesis...)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh, was it? I missed that, my mistake.

I don't know; that's just what I was told. I was arguing the opposite (my idea was that Thor has LG Devas because they're the ones good with paperwork, which is why one was reminding him of this or that).

Grey Wolf

[lio45]

Second, I think (sorry if I’m wrong, on phone and bad at checking things) you proposed getting rid of category 4 (the impossible categories). I completely disagree with that. Those categories all represent things MitD has shown clear evidence of “not being”. For example, he eats and sleeps, therefore he is not a construct. I haven’t seen evidence to overturn any of those, though you might disagree.

Oh, then I completely misinterpreted "impossible categories". I had figured it meant "anything impossible due to being copyrighted" ... my mistake. (Still puzzled on why Snorlax isn't a FBS though.)

Yeah, obviously, #4 absolutely needs to stay; MitD eats and sleeps, so he's not a Construct, etc.

Also, do you know who was the first person to suggest that embodiments of evil shouldn't be considered for FBS status? Me. And do you know why it is NOT an FBS criteria? Because the consensus was against it.

Oh... Well, that's interesting.

Anyway, apologies for having had this tendency to assume you were personally a supporter of whatever the community happened to vote for in every single case. As Crusher pointed out, it's something almost everyone naturally does (and it can be unfair to you occasionally).

Also, I think we could consider calling a vote on something eventually, if that's not too much to ask (I know it'll mean extra work for you so I'd rather discuss a lot more and only call something if most of us consider it likely to pass).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(Still puzzled on why Snorlax isn't a FBS though.)

Because I got red-texted once and warned a second time over bringing up fair use, copyright, trademark laws, etc. since they are a forum-wide forbidden topic, so I implemented the "anything under copyright doesn't get discussed, because I'd rather not get banned over it, thanks" policy.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

Really?

Personally, if that's a contender's only flaw, all my money's on it in a heartbeat.

I mean, this whole line of conversation stemmed from Rich's comment that no baby of any species should have stats or be considered a valid combat target, so, yes, I really feel confident that MitD is not a baby anything.