MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I agree that it is theoretically possible to have MitD just HAPPEN to have the constant two eyes whenever the camera is on him, and MAYBE that wouldn't be cheating TECHNICALLY, but it would be cheating ETHICALLY, in my opinion.

Question: if the creature, when revealed, turns out to according to its description, not be capable of talking, would that be cheating "ethically"? How about if it is, according the statblock, never found in a jungle?

Because, you see, it is generally accepted that you can change things a bit if you lampshade or highlight in advance. And what is the central characterisation of MitD? His desire to fit in. To have "friends", he'll accept every humiliation and insult they throw his way. He'll stay in shadows he hates. He won't even leave a place he does't like, despite being perfectly capable of doing so.

Now, into this mix throw in the assumption that he is a protean. A lonely protean, desperate for friends. And everyone he meets has a face with two eyes, and that face is used for communication and recognition and friendship. Then, his constant resistance of his nature to retain a face becomes the central pathos of his existence. This argument, above all others, is what convinced me that the protean has a much higher chance of being the thing Rich picked, because I can see its storytelling potential: an ever-changing creature, struggling to resist change so he can have friendship. And thus making his reveal satisfactory, as Rich expects it to.

Which is not to say I think it has to be the solution. But that if it was, it would most definitely NOT be a cheat, but storytelling 101.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Yeah, that's why I said it's just my opinion and not proof.

Imagine when Rich said down and looked through hundreds of monster entries, with, at that time, the only limitations being:
- has to fit under umbrella
- has two eyes

And then he found the Protean, which didn't fit either, he thought "Ha, I'll use that one! I'll show them!"

It's possible. But my guess is that Rich would then have found a way to give a clue about the eyes, just like with the size.


Do you want to bet Protean or no-Protean, just for fun? Which Odds would you accept?

Counterpoint! Let's assume the MitD is something else, like a young Ha Naga (topical!). The Giant planned out a lengthy plot, not a decade-plus thing but still a several-year-long plan, where the MitD would be revealed near the end. Years pass, story happens, and the day of the reveal comes, and the reaction, oh the reaction! By which I mean, "huh. It's a snake with a face" by the people who don't know D&D, and "huh. Its a kind of Naga. I've seen those in the monster manual before" by the people who do play D&D.

Replace Ha Naga with most of the other monsters. Now replace that with a creature who is the embodiment of its own character arc and provides more than just "oh thats a monster I guess" response from the majority of the readers. One is clearly a better fit thematically.

Now let's go back to assuming any of the other choices. Literally every one has cons that don't make them a perfect fit, so either the actual monster that does fit perfectly is still unfound, or somethings being fudged but can be rationalized. If the first, hey, it outsmarted us all. If the second, then why not assume the rational fudging for the Protean if we can assume it for all the others?

I'm not sure whether I think that would be more or less fair than "it's always using an action to keep it's head", but it would be an amazing sight gag.

Yep! And that's no small part of why I believe it.

[Keltest]

Counterpoint! Let's assume the MitD is something else, like a young Ha Naga (topical!). The Giant planned out a lengthy plot, not a decade-plus thing but still a several-year-long plan, where the MitD would be revealed near the end. Years pass, story happens, and the day of the reveal comes, and the reaction, oh the reaction! By which I mean, "huh. It's a snake with a face" by the people who don't know D&D, and "huh. Its a kind of Naga. I've seen those in the monster manual before" by the people who do play D&D.

Replace Ha Naga with most of the other monsters. Now replace that with a creature who is the embodiment of its own character arc and provides more than just "oh thats a monster I guess" response from the majority of the readers. One is clearly a better fit thematically.

Now let's go back to assuming any of the other choices. Literally every one has cons that don't make them a perfect fit, so either the actual monster that does fit perfectly is still unfound, or somethings being fudged but can be rationalized. If the first, hey, it outsmarted us all. If the second, then why not assume the rational fudging for the Protean if we can assume it for all the others?

My problem with this argument is that it assumes that Rich would only ever choose a monster because its very identity as a monster of X species would be tied thematically into its overall character arc. It might be a bonus on top of otherwise meeting the conditions he needs to meet, but I don't think it is by itself enough to overcome "doesn't actually fit the extremely minimal restrictions he has to work with." when it comes to picking a monster.

[Peelee]

My problem with this argument is that it assumes that Rich would only ever choose a monster because its very identity as a monster of X species would be tied thematically into its overall character arc. It might be a bonus on top of otherwise meeting the conditions he needs to meet, but I don't think it is by itself enough to overcome "doesn't actually fit the extremely minimal restrictions he has to work with." when it comes to picking a monster.

I don't think it necessitates he choose a monster only ever because of that reason, but I would expect a reason more than "oooh that's an obscure monster."

[Keltest]

I don't think it necessitates he choose a monster only ever because of that reason, but I would expect a reason more than "oooh that's an obscure monster."

Why? Not everything needs to have some deep seated thematic meaning. Especially since for 90% of the comic's run nobody besides Rich will know what the MITD is. The things that are interesting and meaningful about the MITD are because of who he is as a character, not what race is written on his stat sheet.

[Peelee]

Why?

Because this is boring:

Years pass, story happens, and the day of the reveal comes, and the reaction, oh the reaction! By which I mean, "huh. It's a snake with a face" by the people who don't know D&D, and "huh. Its a kind of Naga. I've seen those in the monster manual before" by the people who do play D&D.

[Keltest]

Because this is boring:

Which would suggest it is visually interesting, but hardly means its visual appearance needs some deep thematic connection to his character arc. Sometimes a cigar is allowed to be a cigar. Heck, the comic even gently mocks that idea when Haley grows her hair back out.

[Peelee]

Which would suggest it is visually interesting, but hardly means its visual appearance needs some deep thematic connection to his character arc. Sometimes a cigar is allowed to be a cigar. Heck, the comic even gently mocks that idea when Haley grows her hair back out.

An unnecessary one. If the things that are interesting and meaningful about the MITD are because of who he is as a character, not what race is written on his stat sheet, then there's zero reason to show what he is, because it doesnt matter. The only reason to show would be a joke (which Protean has under my argument, and I've not heard anything else have) or show it to be a personification of its arc (or both, as my argument has it. It's a good argument).

[zimmerwald1915]

An unnecessary one. If the things that are interesting and meaningful about the MITD are because of who he is as a character, not what race is written on his stat sheet, then there's zero reason to show what he is, because it doesnt matter.

Is there any reason to think MitD actually will be revealed at any point?

Mr. Burlew has "imagined" his reveal, he "knows when" it will be revealed but warns us that it will not be "soon," and that there "is an answer." None of this is actually a promise to that the revelation will actually occur

[Peelee]

Is there any reason to think MitD actually will be revealed at any point?

Mr. Burlew has "imagined" his reveal, he "knows when" it will be revealed but warns us that it will not be "soon," and that there "is an answer." None of this is actually a promise to that the revelation will actually occur

True, and I'm cool with that if it happens.

[Keltest]

An unnecessary one. If the things that are interesting and meaningful about the MITD are because of who he is as a character, not what race is written on his stat sheet, then there's zero reason to show what he is, because it doesnt matter. The only reason to show would be a joke (which Protean has under my argument, and I've not heard anything else have) or show it to be a personification of its arc (or both, as my argument has it. It's a good argument).

Not true. The act of coming out of the shadows would be an act of overt defiance against Xykon and Redcloak, and would almost certainly be representative of him outright turning against them.

[hamishspence]

he "knows when" it will be revealed but warns us that it will not be "soon," and that there "is an answer." None of this is actually a promise to that the revelation will actually occur

I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.

"It won't"

doesn't really make sense as an answer to when and why the monster will reveal itself. Or as a "little tidbit".

[Kish]

Is there any reason to think MitD actually will be revealed at any point?

Mr. Burlew has "imagined" his reveal, he "knows when" it will be revealed but warns us that it will not be "soon," and that there "is an answer." None of this is actually a promise to that the revelation will actually occur

Zimmer, sometimes--by which I mean 90% of the time--your lawyer-parsing of Rich's words leads you to profoundly goofy conclusions.

Let me respond to this in my own characteristic fashion, then:

One hundred million (100,000,000) gold pieces says that as long as book seven is published, either it or (remote chance but possible) Book 6 will include the revelation of the species of the creature in the darkness.

[Sir_Norbert]

An unnecessary one. If the things that are interesting and meaningful about the MITD are because of who he is as a character, not what race is written on his stat sheet, then there's zero reason to show what he is, because it doesnt matter.

The reason to show what he is is clear: Rich knows that readers will have been wondering about it for over a decade, and it's considerate to give them a final answer, even if it is a species that doesn't have any particular symbolic significance. Yes, I know there are works of fiction where mysteries are deliberately left unresolved; in that case the author still understands that the audience would like an answer, but chooses not to give them one. In the case of MITD, we have Rich's word that there will eventually be a reveal.

This line of thinking is why I remain unconvinced by the argument a few posters have made that the species must be one with symbolic significance. It could be, but I don't think it has to be.

[thelivingmonkey]

The reason to show what he is is clear: Rich knows that readers will have been wondering about it for over a decade, and it's considerate to give them a final answer, even if it is a species that doesn't have any particular symbolic significance. Yes, I know there are works of fiction where mysteries are deliberately left unresolved; in that case the author still understands that the audience would like an answer, but chooses not to give them one. In the case of MITD, we have Rich's word that there will eventually be a reveal.

This line of thinking is why I remain unconvinced by the argument a few posters have made that the species must be one with symbolic significance. It could be, but I don't think it has to be.

Rich is confident that the reveal will be satisfying, so while I agree it doesn't have to be symbolically significance, I'm 99.999% sure the species has to have SOME significance, and 50% sure that we the readers could predict that significance, and it just so happens that the easiest sort of significance to predict is symbolic and we have a creature that fits such a prediction.

Of course the significance could be that Rich likes cheetahs and the creature is a cheetah from some 90s cartoon that fits all the criteria but isn't what we were thinking of. I think that's a bit less fair than Rich, who is crafting a literary work, choosing something that easily relates to the themes and arc of the character in question.

Then again, maybe in the next book the MitD's character arc goes in a totally different, but equally logical way that points to him being a snake or something. Stranger things have happened.

[lio45]

The umbrella wasn't introduced until later. The MitD's identity was set around strip 100,the umbrella didn't show up until 50 strips or so later. The only indication of size before strip 100 is that the eyes are fairly close to the ground.

Exactly, and that's not even that much of an indication, since it could easily have been something like a Colossal-sized Ancient Dragon (or Ha-Naga) with its neck positioned so that its head is close to the level of his humanoid interlocutors.

[Peelee]

The reason to show what he is is clear: Rich knows that readers will have been wondering about it for over a decade, and it's considerate to give them a final answer, even if it is a species that doesn't have any particular symbolic significance.

Disappointmemt, thy name is some irrelevant-to-anything creature from a Monster Manual being revealed.

[Keltest]

Disappointmemt, thy name is some irrelevant-to-anything creature from a Monster Manual being revealed.

Ok, great, you personally would be disappointed if it were something relatively mundane looking. But that doesn't actually prove anything.

[Peelee]

Ok, great, you personally would be disappointed if it were something relatively mundane looking. But that doesn't actually prove anything.

Five bucks says the average non-D&D-familiar reader would be too. May not have mattered back around strip 100, but it'd be a notable issue today, and the Giant seems like he wants a more universal story despite the 3.5 roots.

Besides, if I could prove anything, the thread would be over. Never suggested I'd prove it. My arguments are definitely not ironclad, and I've never pretended they were.

[NoHaxJustPi]

I'd be disappointed if it was something mundane, and i knew absolutely nothing about D&D when i started reading and still don't know much.

[lio45]

One hundred million (100,000,000) gold pieces says that as long as book seven is published, either it or (remote chance but possible) Book 6 will include the revelation of the species of the creature in the darkness.

Amusingly, and to tie this into an off-topic subject I happened to recently discuss with Grey Wolf, since I started to collect (Early Roman Imperial) gold coins last year, I'd actually now be in a position to pay a nonzero fraction if I ever lost that exact bet.

Also, I'm convinced Zimmer's interpretation of Rich's words wouldn't have any chance of holding in court.

[Keltest]

Five bucks says the average non-D&D-familiar reader would be too. May not have mattered back around strip 100, but it'd be a notable issue today, and the Giant seems like he wants a more universal story despite the 3.5 roots.

Besides, if I could prove anything, the thread would be over. Never suggested I'd prove it. My arguments are definitely not ironclad, and I've never pretended they were.

Im not sure what youre claiming here. Plenty of the creatures on the FBS list are nothing so mundane as a snake with a human head. Beyond which, "mundane" is a subjective thing. Would you consider the Glabrezu mundane just because its a fairly classic demon looking thing? Where do we draw the line? And what does this have to do with the thought process Rich would have when choosing a monster?

[lio45]

Disappointmemt, thy name is some irrelevant-to-anything creature from a Monster Manual being revealed.

Agreed. In my opinion, Rich - an experienced author - clearly, deliberately and cool-headedly chose to set the bar so high that "was actually worth a 15 year wait" (regardless of reason) has then become one of the major criteria, and still is nowadays.

Of course, no need to reopen the can of worms of trying to quantify that; I'm just saying (for the nth time) that, like Peelee, I do this one extra step of FBS weeding out in my head, because anything that'd be disappointing is IMO out of the running.

[Crusher]

Im not sure what youre claiming here. Plenty of the creatures on the FBS list are nothing so mundane as a snake with a human head. Beyond which, "mundane" is a subjective thing. Would you consider the Glabrezu mundane just because its a fairly classic demon looking thing? Where do we draw the line? And what does this have to do with the thought process Rich would have when choosing a monster?

And everyone mocked the Thematic Relevance score!

[Mightymosy]

Question: if the creature, when revealed, turns out to according to its description, not be capable of talking, would that be cheating "ethically"? How about if it is, according the statblock, never found in a jungle?

No, because we are told that it is unusual that it can talk, right?
Also, it is found in a jungle, but that's surprising. So I would only feel cheated when the stat block said that it is usually found in a jungle.

I should note that ethically is maybe not exactly the right word.....it sounds as if I want to say Rich would be evil or something if MitD turned out a Protean.
I don't know English well enough to find a better word right now, I'm sorry.
What I am trying to say is that I would feel cheated, even it was technically not against the rules.
Kinda like "angle-shooting"(right word?) in sports, or bug-using in computer games. It is not directly forbidden by the rules, but most people agree that it's rude and un-sportsmanlike, that sort of things. Of course, that's subjective, so I don't fault anyone for believing in the Protean. I too think it might be the best choice we have until now, after much thinking. I just think "something else not yet discovered" has a higher chance, personally. But since I have no better idea, alas!

Because, you see, it is generally accepted that you can change things a bit if you lampshade or highlight in advance. And what is the central characterisation of MitD? His desire to fit in. To have "friends", he'll accept every humiliation and insult they throw his way. He'll stay in shadows he hates. He won't even leave a place he does't like, despite being perfectly capable of doing so.

Now, into this mix throw in the assumption that he is a protean. A lonely protean, desperate for friends. And everyone he meets has a face with two eyes, and that face is used for communication and recognition and friendship. Then, his constant resistance of his nature to retain a face becomes the central pathos of his existence. This argument, above all others, is what convinced me that the protean has a much higher chance of being the thing Rich picked, because I can see its storytelling potential: an ever-changing creature, struggling to resist change so he can have friendship. And thus making his reveal satisfactory, as Rich expects it to.

Which is not to say I think it has to be the solution. But that if it was, it would most definitely NOT be a cheat, but storytelling 101.

Grey Wolf

It is certainly possible, but to me the narrative doesn't convince me (yet) that there is pressure on MitD to always maintain one shape, or always maintain two eyes.

Actually, the circus scene AND his role in the Dungeon of Dorukan, as Xykon's secret scary weapon monster, would be scenes where I would expect him to change.

Even after that, Xykon and RC clearly mock him for his lack in perfomance ("try to be scary, try to be scary").
If he truly WANTED to fit in (with X and RC), and he changes shapes all the time unless he specifically doesn't want to, I'd think we would have seen him changing his eyes in some way, shape or form at some time.

I am not saying it is impossible. I agree that there is a certain narrative attraction to the Protean, really good reasons to use it. I think it is a VERY good fit for various reasons - but I also think showing two yellow eyes all the time would feel like cheating to me without a proper explanation before the end of the guessing game.

Now, it is certainly possible that me might get one such clue later - it might be one of the last clues since it would be so obvious then. It is possible that early in the next book, the narrative you are saying (he always focuses on showing two yellow eyes, for some reason) is expressed, and then to you people and me the Protean will fit, and it will still be a pleasant surprise to everyone who doesn't read this thread.

Again, I am not trying to convice other people that MitD CAN'T be a Protean - actually, I try to find reasons for myself if it might fit better than I thought. And a good reason would be, if there was an older sourcebook that didn't mention the ever-shifting eyes - even better, it would fit almost perfectly if it said that the Protean must CONCENTRATE if it WANTS to shift. That would nicely into the "has powers it isn't aware of" narrative, I think.

I was guessing/hoping that maybe 1st edition Proteans needed to concentrate to shapeshift, and they later changed it to "has to concentrate NOT to shapeshift" in later editions to make it cooler. So Rich chose the version he was familiar with and it fits.
But unfortunately no such information thus far.

ETA:

Is there any reason to think MitD actually will be revealed at any point?

Mr. Burlew has "imagined" his reveal, he "knows when" it will be revealed but warns us that it will not be "soon," and that there "is an answer." None of this is actually a promise to that the revelation will actually occur

Wasn't there something about V's gender and MitD's species and something about Belkar, about which Rich said something like "One will be revealed later at a crucial point, and one won't be revealed because it is not important at all"?
I always assumed V's gender was unimportant and won't get revealed, and MitD's species is a plot point, but it might be the other way around after all ;-)

Oh wait, I think there are later quotes saying that MitD WILL be revealed, right? :-)

[b_jonas]

Wasn't there something about V's gender and MitD's species and something about Belkar, about which Rich said something like "One will be revealed later at a crucial point, and one won't be revealed because it is not important at all"?

That one is from the older interview. “I am proud of you for not asking me either Vaarsuvius' gender, or what the Monster in the Darkness is, or how Belkar's gonna die. Those three questions everyone asks. / Two of them are really important and one of them is so not important that it doesn't even need to be answered. / I'll let you figure out which ones are which.” This is also mentioned in a certain Twitter conversation.

[Peelee]

Im not sure what youre claiming here. Plenty of the creatures on the FBS list are nothing so mundane as a snake with a human head. Beyond which, "mundane" is a subjective thing. Would you consider the Glabrezu mundane just because its a fairly classic demon looking thing? Where do we draw the line? And what does this have to do with the thought process Rich would have when choosing a monster?

Then stop calling them mundane. I certainly never said it.

[Ruck]

The obvious counter to this is that of the eyes fluctuated, it would be an inarguably dead giveaway what the MitD is. The two theories that address it directly are that, assuming a Protean, he uses a Move action constantly to hold the eyes (the much more popular belief, which I do not share) or that the shifting form happens to constant shift in such a way as to have two eyes in the front while on camera, which would be visibly seen after the reveal (the significantly less popular option - in fact, I believe I'm the only one to ever back it).

And to this point, I'll add that while either explanation is not necessarily likely, they are both possible in the description as given. It's a fudge insofar as it means "MitD was doing X the whole time, actually," but when X is something the species can do, I think that the case for that species is stronger than when you have to make other assumptions (like simply granting it extra strength / powers or handwaving away elements that don't fit what we've seen).

My problem with this argument is that it assumes that Rich would only ever choose a monster because its very identity as a monster of X species would be tied thematically into its overall character arc.

I think that is, in fact, the primary reason Rich would've made the choice he did. (Grey Wolf's post on this page is really excellent.)

It might be a bonus on top of otherwise meeting the conditions he needs to meet, but I don't think it is by itself enough to overcome "doesn't actually fit the extremely minimal restrictions he has to work with." when it comes to picking a monster.

But, again, it's not that the Protean cannot fit those restrictions, it's that it does not by default. It is quite capable of taking actions to fit those restrictions.

Why? Not everything needs to have some deep seated thematic meaning.

What do you think Rich means when he says the MitD's reveal will be "satisfying," then?

[Sir_Norbert]

Disappointmemt, thy name is some irrelevant-to-anything creature from a Monster Manual being revealed.

I'm confident that Rich could make it work, because so far, every time an arc or plot point has seemed to be heading in the direction of an unsatisfying conclusion, something unexpected has been added that made it awesome. The MITD's reveal scene will, most likely, be awesome because of what's happening, how the characters react, and the implications it has for the direction of the story and MITD's character arc. As someone (Grey Wolf?) said earlier in one of these threads, it doesn't have to be the species itself that's the awesome factor.

Then again, maybe I'm coming at this from a different angle because I have little familiarity with D&D (I have played it, as part of an online group, over 10 years ago; a member of that group helped me discover OOTS). Ever since the beginning I've expected that, most likely, when MITD's species was revealed it would be unknown to me until I visit that comic's forum thread. And I'm okay with that. It's still fun to guess and wait for the moment the curtain opens.

[Ruck]

One more thought on the two eyes thing, re the circus scene:

MitD is pretty nervous about appearing on stage in that scene (see p.83 of Start of Darkness). He has to talk himself up into it, describes a feeling in the pit of his stomach, and says afterward "Sometimes, it's hard being looked at by so many."

Given that, it would make sense for a Protean MitD to try to hold a shape even inside the darkness, not just to look the same as his friends, but also because he's actually uncomfortable with his default appearance and how people respond to it. (Even though he's constantly in darkness and people can't see him anyway-- look, he's new at this whole thinking thing.)

As an aside, I think the Protean also best explains the reactions of the goblin children in the circus scene. "You did the same thing you did every show-- stand out on the stage and get gawked at" is generally not the sort of thing that inspires cheering unless something is actually happening during that process. (It would also explain why the kids like going back every day-- you never know what you're going to get just watching a Protean.)