MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Would you mind writing a quick summary of what’s right and wrong with the Ha-Naga? I’m low on spare time, but not on waiting time. If that summary sways me, then I’ll do whatever I can to get it onto whatever the Strong Contenders list is (FBS i think)

Sure:

• It's nowhere strong enough even as a colossal creature.
• MitD is not colossal, it is a tenth of the size of one. Therefore, a Ha-Naga that small would have even less strength than a tiny baby has compared to a human adult.
• There is no indication that a Ha-Naga can even be that small.
• A human-size Ha-Naga (assuming one can even exist) would not make entire audiences vomit and wonder what it is - "had of a human, body of an animal" are not rare sights in OotSworld where owlbears exist.
• A Ha-Naga that small would probably not have the HD to cast wish, thus having no explanation for the escape.

All of those issues have been handwaved away by 3powers by claiming that Rich could simply ignore them by author fiat. That this applies to every possible suggestion, down to and including a potted plant, has not been, as far as I know, acknowledged.

If you want to assist in getting it into the FBS, it will be by removing so many requirements for admittance that the FBS will at that point be merged with the proposal list.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Would you mind writing a quick summary of what’s right and wrong with the Ha-Naga? I’m low on spare time, but not on waiting time. If that summary sways me, then I’ll do whatever I can to get it onto whatever the Strong Contenders list is (FBS i think)

It's Colossal, the largest possible size category; being a snake with a human head, it cannot stomp; it has spellcasting as a sorcerer with access to some cleric spells, which would give it the ability to learn Animate Dead, which Redcloak told the creature in the dark he would need to take five levels of cleric to cast; its only explanation for teleporting away O-Chul and Vaarsuvius away is that it has spellcasting as a sorcerer with access to some cleric spells (i.e., it would need to have cast a spell in the same way Vaarsuvius or Xykon does); the default Strength of a full-size Ha-Naga is 27 (probably significantly less than Roy at this point, without taking into account any reductions for going down three or four size categories); it has DR 5/epic (meaning that Belkar, Haley, and Miko should all have been well able to damage one, only for five points less than their standard damage per hit).

[Ruck]

That they stay the same while sleeping, I can live with as a subterfuge to protect the guessing game.

How often have we actually seen MitD asleep? Any time besides immediately after teleporting out Vaarsuvius and O-Chul?

Im not sure I agree with that. When I was a kid, I could comfortably make myself fit into all kinds of boxes and small spaces, but if I wanted to stretch (or fell asleep and stretched out of reflex or something) then either the box would break or I wouldn't be able to do it. But ok, maybe its a magic indestructible box so random chance doesn't accidentally reveal the MITD, because that's the sort of thing Xykon would do with his time. I still don't like the explanation, but its better than "because he just doesn't".

The eyes are still tripping me up though, more so while he's asleep.

Just curious-- what is your guess for the most likely answer? You don't seem to have submitted one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Glabrezu from the list of FBS, since the Ha-Naga is a somewhat better fit

Other than not being an embodiment of Evil, Glabrezu fits MitD better than a Ha-Naga in every respect. It is smaller, stronger, doesn't have issue with its spell casting re:creating undead, can grant wishes, it doesn't look like a standard demon, it's significantly more vomit inducing, and at least has limbs to carry stuff.

And since at this time my views on morality beings being incapable of changing alignments are not accepted by thread consensus, the lonely advantage of Ha-Naga is nowhere near enough to render it "a somewhat better fit".

Grey Wolf

[NoHaxJustPi]

You’ve convinced me to go against the Ha-Naga. I actually agree that embodiments of alignments can’t change their alignment. Could we start a vote on that by procedure?

[Peelee]

You’ve convinced me to go against the Ha-Naga. I actually agree that embodiments of alignments can’t change their alignment. Could we start a vote on that by procedure?

I'll second if that's kosher. Nothing I could see on calling for votes on something that's airway been voted on before, and I don't think anyone wants a constant back-and-forth.

[3Power]

Would you mind writing a quick summary of what’s right and wrong with the Ha-Naga? I’m low on spare time, but not on waiting time. If that summary sways me, then I’ll do whatever I can to get it onto whatever the Strong Contenders list is (FBS i think)

Pros:
1. It can cast wish, which explains the escape scene perfectly and thematically, without needing to rely on complicated explanations involving the MitD being hit by a dimensional anchor and reading minds to determine the location to transport o-chul to, or how he teleported them from across the room when up until that point teleporting people were always in touch distance from each other.
2. It can cast earthquake, which explains the earthquake scene as best as can be hoped, with the only outstanding issue being that we don't see the fissures close.
3. It has more strength than the strongest human in the world, thus explaining the tower scene. Access to telekinesis also explains the tower scene.
4. It has damage reduction. It had more before the 3.5 update but it has it nonetheless. It also has high natural armor.
5. It has two eyes. And all naga have eyes that glow with an inner light.
6. As an aberration, it has an appearance that could be considered unsettling in certain circumstances.
7. Due to what is likely an oversight, it is not listed as speaking any language, thus explaining the hunters being surprised that it could speak.
8. The lack of limbs, and requiring the use of its mouth, tail, and/or mage hand, provides an explanation as to why "pulling" would be difficult for it.
9. Ranks in arcana, history, religion, and spellcraft provide explanations for random insights of knowledge about subjects such as the astral plane, the ritual spell, goblin socioeconomic issues, etc.
10. Perfect magical flight explains several weight issues.
11. As a "snake-with-a-face" it could easily be considered a "beast."
12. Bluff and Diplomacy ranks could explain convincing Xykon to leave the order alone and move on.
13. Its not immune to mind-affecting effects, and therefore can be mind controlled by Xykon.
14. Its CR is appropriately high to be counted among Xykon and Redcloak as beings capable of conquering the dungeon of good creatures.
15. It's not an embodiment of an alignment.

Cons:
1. It is colossal by default. Most Naga are large. It is theorized that if it is a Ha-naga, Rich started with a spirit naga but then decided it was too weak and chose a stronger variant. Fortunately, two separate hints have been given that the MitD is smaller than normal, and one of them specifically mentions that his dad was BIG, in all caps. The problem lies then in what being smaller ultimately means. I maintain that Rich simply handwaved size penalties, while others insist that he must have had his STR reduced, thus causing him to fail imagined thresholds for the tower scene.

Nitpicks:
1. Some people think that in order to send Miko flying the Mitd must have at least 30 STR. Others think even higher. They have yet to provide a creature with that level of Strength that can cast wish on demand, and would rather handwave teleport requirements than the joke tower scene.
2. Some people think it's not ugly enough to make a random person vomit. I argue that faces on places they should not be can be unsettling enough.
3. Some people think that because a demon roach told the Mitd to stomp it MUST have legs because only legs can stomp and no-one could mistake a tail slap for a stomp. (This is despite the MitD not knowing what is meant by "stomp" until the demon roach explains it, and still being confused as he does it.)
4. Some people think that because Redcloak knows what the MitD is, he should also know the full extent of of his spellcasting abilities, and therefore would not have told the MitD to gain "5 levels of cleric" in order to help animate the dead, but rather something else that would have given away much more information.
5. Some people think that if it were a naga, it could not cast mage hand without in comic proof that mage hand was being cast, thus there being no explanation for how it manipulates multiple objects at once. This is despite the fact that every naga has mage hand on its sample spells known.

You’ve convinced me to go against the Ha-Naga. I actually agree that embodiments of alignments can’t change their alignment. Could we start a vote on that by procedure?

{{Scrubbed}}

[NoHaxJustPi]

Interesting. I ask for what’s right and wrong with the Ha-Naga, people give me a list of what’s wrong, i’m swayed by that, and then you insult me. The tests it do pass, it passes very well, but it fails badly on strength and cleric casting (it could Animate Dead, and RC should probably know), as well as mage hand meaning he doesn’t have to lean to reach the stew in SoD.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

then you insult me.

Yeah, I'm afraid that is 3powers' SOP.

Grey Wolf

[lio45]

[Glabrezu] can grant wishes

Not in the context of the Escape Scene, according to what Kish posted a few pages ago. It can only grant a wish that's going to be used for Evil purposes. That's about as diametrically opposite to granting a wish to a Paladin to help them foil Team Evil's plans as imaginable.

[3Power]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not in the context of the Escape Scene, according to what Kish posted a few pages ago. It can only grant a wish that's going to be used for Evil purposes. That's about as diametrically opposite to granting a wish to a Paladin to help them foil Team Evil's plans as imaginable.

Not quite. I quote:
"Once per month, a glabrezu can fulfill a wish for a mortal humanoid. The demon can use this ability to offer a mortal whatever he or she desires—but unless the wish is used to create pain and suffering in the world, the glabrezu demands either terrible evil acts or great sacrifice as compensation."

So the borderline-Good MitD could choose NOT to demand any of that, or be saving it to require it when he next meets O-Chul (which, MitD being MitD, might involve something ridiculous that he feels is a terrible Evil - like put on a tutu or the like). Which brings us back to my core issue with all demons, angels & other morality embodiments: it is hard to imgaine that they'd go wandering along the Good-Evil bar as MitD has been doing.

Grey Wolf

[lio45]

Your clarifications are noted, but it's still a major stretch to imagine this borderline-Good, Embodiment-of-Evil MitD behaving like that. Either the Glabrezu's wish is used directly for Evil, or else it's indirectly serving Evil (i.e. the recipient might use it on selfish or personal purposes that aren't directly nor immediately Evil, but then the Glabrezu will hold that now-more-powerful individual by the nuts (and demand Evil acts, etc.))

Also, we have now met the threshold for a vote for "modifying the requirements for FBS"; NoHaxJustPi and Peelee are both on board so that makes three of us.

[The Aboleth]

Mage Hand cannot lift a full bucket of stew.

Also, I think you're just someone's alt.

Uh, why can't Mage Hand lift the stew? A bucket of stew probably doesn't weigh more than 5 pounds.

Also, you're being very rude. Considering you complained not long ago about the rest of us supposedly "chasing you out of the thread," you might want to check your own behavior.

[lio45]

I would like the Ha-naga to be formally acknowledged as a "Strong contender" in whatever form that takes, and not relegated to a list of "Proposed Ideas" (not saying rejects because that triggers people.) where it is wedged between a Call of Cthulu Creature and a CR1 Half-Giant and declared to be equally valid as both of them.

I would like for people to peek into the ONE THREAD we are allowed to have on this topic and be able to actually discern the wheat from chaff, and not just blindly go to our current FBS section and debate the protean for the next 5 threads.

Basically, you're proposing an extra category... (The idea was floated in the past, probably many times over the years, but at least once not that long ago, and GW is against it - more work for nearly no benefit)

Right now, we essentially have

- FBS a.k.a. Wheat
- Frequently Proposed Chaff
- "Regular" Chaff

and you'd like to break down the latter in two (to create a "not quite FBS strictly speaking, yet not garbage") new category.

If that doesn't happen, then I imagine that if you really wanted, you could create alternate usernames and propose the Ha-Naga every couple months sneakily under a new identity in order to eventually have it join Tarrasque and the deities........... :P

Though, I'll still point out - as others have done before me - that in the "rejects" category, not everything's treated equally. Some of the stronger contenders in there (the Ha-Naga is one) have elaborate posts listing Pros and Cons, while ridiculously unfit ideas have much shorter and much more dismissive entries. In any case, I know GW and others don't see the need for adding another tier between "all suggestions" and "the leading 6-12 suggestions at any given time", and for the time being, I'm inclined to agree with them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Voting Time

Topic: altering the FBS requirements.

Rules:

• Semi-public vote: votes will be PM'ed to me, the curator, to prevent the thread from being spammed by multiple short "vote for X" posts. I will compile all votes in the original voting post for verification and record keeping. To prevent fraud, please be ready to reaffirm your vote if someone else PMs you to ask about it.
• You may post longer defences of your vote if you wish (see example below), but as per the above please DO NOT post just to vote. To discourage that, I won't count it if it is not PM'ed.
• Multiple votes per person: you can vote for more than one option. Do so in order of preference.
• Vote counting: will not be first past the post; instead, alternative vote system will be used.
• Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead.
• Voting options: If you feel the options are not to your liking, you can vote for a new option by describing it in your post. Give it a letter for ease of voting.
• Changing Votes: You can change your vote at any time before the end of the voting.

---

Collected voting options:
A) No change
B) Remove Upper Size Limit
C) Add minimum Size Limit: Large
D) Add "must not be an embodiment of Evil" requirement
E) Remove Strength Requirement
F) Increase Strength Requirement to 40
G) Reduce Strength Requirement to 23.
H) Monster must not be a non-D&D copyrighted Creature.
I) Add "must not be an embodiment of Chaos" requirement

---

Collected votes:

Voter	PV 1	PV 2	PV 3	PV 4	PV 5	PV 6
Grey Wolf	A	D	D, F	F
Kish	D, H	D	H	A
Qwertystop	C, D	C	D	B	F	A
Squire Doodad	A	C
The Aboleth	A	B
Peelee	D	D, F	F	A
Vulkos	B, C	B	C	A
Jaxzan Proditor	A	D
3Power	H, G, B, D	B, G	B	H, D	D
lio45	B	D
InvisibleBison	C, D	C	D	A
Throknor	A
Crusher	B	A
Vendanna	A	C	D	F
Mightymosy	A	D
monomer	A
Joerg	C	A	C,H	C,B,H	C,B	H
Joerg (2)	C, D, I, H	C, D, I	C, D, H	C, D	H, D
NoHaxJustPi	C, D, I	Any subset of (C, D, I)
TheSchleus	A	D	F	C, D, F	Any subset of (C, D, F)
Sir_Norbert	C, D	D	C	A
Darth Paul	A	C
thelivingmonkey	D	A
woweed	B, D, H, I	D, H, I	D, H	D	A
dmc91356	C,D,H	Any subset of C,D,H	A
Doug Lampert	C	A	D	B
Ruck	A	D

---

Reasons for my vote:
The FBS currently is within its sweet spot of members. It doesn't have so many that it makes it a hassle to read them all, it's not so few that it suggests (to anyone other than 3powers, anyway) that they are some kind of "finalists" or "done deal". It thus is not really worth changing: it is already fulfilling its function perfectly well.

If pushed, I have been a long time believer of the interpretation for morality beings I described in 1e. I have long believed, though, that the consensus is against in. In case I misread it, sure, I'll throw my vote in that direction.

Finally, sure, I might as well say I'm not completely opposed to raising the strength limit. I think it will reduce the FBS list well beyond what I want it to be, but at this point, I'll do it just to annoy 3powers.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Just curious-- what is your guess for the most likely answer? You don't seem to have submitted one.

Of the creatures proposed so far, I like the Athasian Nightmare Beast the most, but I haven't submitted a guess because I don't think we have the creature in this thread yet. It would perhaps be better to call it my least unlikely answer.

[3Power]

Uh, why can't Mage Hand lift the stew? A bucket of stew probably doesn't weigh more than 5 pounds.

A bucket of water weighs 40 pounds. Stew's probably lighter because of water displacement or whatever but I guarantee a bucketful of it weighs more than 5 pounds.

[The Aboleth]

A bucket of water weighs 40 pounds. Stew's probably lighter because of water displacement or whatever but I guarantee a bucketful of it weighs more than 5 pounds.

Can you please cite your source? Only thing I found with a quick Google search was that an empty bucket was 2 pounds.

[3Power]

Can you please cite your source? Only thing I found with a quick Google search was that an empty bucket was 2 pounds.

https://www.google.com/search?client...+full+of+water

[Qwertystop]

Can you please cite your source? Only thing I found with a quick Google search was that an empty bucket was 2 pounds.

Water has a known density. 5 pounds of water is 2.27 liters, or ~2.4 quarts – a bit more than half a gallon. That's pretty small for a bucket, I think, and that's before the weight of the bucket itself. I'd have eyeballed the stew bucket as at least a gallon, though since nobody has realistic proportions it's hard to be sure (a bucket the size of one's head and a bucket the size of one's torso are much more different IRL than in the comic).

[lio45]

The arch-standard bucket is 5 gallons.

That's a bit less than ~20 liters of water, which is the same number in kg, and works out to about ~40 pounds.

Edit - I don't recall the art right now; if the bucket in question is smaller than that, then the weight's going to be reduced accordingly.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Water has a known density. 5 pounds of water is 2.27 liters, or ~2.4 quarts – a bit more than half a gallon. That's pretty small for a bucket, I think, and that's before the weight of the bucket itself.

That assumes the bucket is full, rather than just being one serving, which is far more likely.

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

I've been watching this for a bit (last week or so, new to the forums but I've been reading OotS for a while) but the vote prompted me to go on.
Also, I'd like to say that while the idea of MitD being smaller than the average species (whether he is a child or just small) does allow for a wider margin of error, it still does not really allow monsters that are obscenely large to count. In my opinion, if a monster has not been documented to have immense growth as a child, it can only be so small as a child. That said, I'm perfectly fine with MitD being something Huge or relatively Gargantuan, though Colossal seems a bit much unless it is known to grow rapidly. If it grows up to be the size of a mansion, then I'm pretty sure it still starts out the size of a small house.

[Qwertystop]

That assumes the bucket is full, rather than just being one serving, which is far more likely.

Grey Wolf

Fair. "One serving" is pretty vague for an unknown-but-probably-at-least-Large creature, right? There's rules for scaling of food-eaten but as far as I recall it's all "this provides food for one Medium creature, halve that for Large or double for Small" and so on. And that's per-day, we don't know if the Monster gets more than one meal per day, do we?

However, we do see that all of O-Chul's gruel is traded for some of MitD's stew. A bowl of gruel... two cups, ish? If we go with "Large eats twice as much as Medium" and assume that MitD and O-Chul are on the same meal schedule, that's probably about a quart of stew, to ballpark it. Which is about two pounds of water (unsure how the density of stew compares with water; some stewable foods float and some sink), leaving three pounds carrying capacity for the bucket.

This is all pretty wild ballparking, but sure; it's within plausibility that the amount of stew in the bucket was small enough that the total weight is less than five pounds.

[Kish]

If it grows up to be the size of a mansion, then I'm pretty sure it still starts out the size of a small house.

I find looking at dragon age categories there helpful. A dragon invariably goes up either two or three size categories in aging between a newborn and an adult, and the only dragon who reaches Colossal size with adulthood, rather than much later or never, is the prismatic dragon--which is hatched already Huge.

So I'm fine with "the creature is an immature member of a listed-as-Huge species, who is Large as a juvenile blue dragon would be," or even, in a pinch, "an immature member of a listed-as-Huge species who is Medium as only a younger-than-juvenile blue dragon would be." Since I'm not willing to swallow him mapping to the Wyrmling age category, I would balk at Gargantuan, and Colossal is (or should be) right out.

[Squire Doodad]

Water has a known density. 5 pounds of water is 2.27 liters, or ~2.4 quarts – a bit more than half a gallon. That's pretty small for a bucket, I think, and that's before the weight of the bucket itself. I'd have eyeballed the stew bucket as at least a gallon, though since nobody has realistic proportions it's hard to be sure (a bucket the size of one's head and a bucket the size of one's torso are much more different IRL than in the comic).

Not sure if it is relevant, but it is a beef stew bucket. I don't normally make stew, but not only is the stew likely thick, but based on a google search and asking a friend it mostly has about a pound to a pound and half of meat in the whole stew. Assuming 4 servings in the pot and Large as eating twice as much as medium (though MitD might be more voracious and eat more), that would mean probably half a pound to three quarters of a pound.

[Qwertystop]

...hang on, I think I may have misunderstood the vote system. Yours has the same letter in two places sometimes, what's that meant to indicate? I voted two in one slot meaning no particular priority between those but I want them more than the others.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

...hang on, I think I may have misunderstood the vote system. Yours has the same letter in two places sometimes, what's that meant to indicate? I voted two in one slot meaning no particular priority between those but I want them more than the others.

It means you want both together, or not at all (i.e. "X and Y")

Grey Wolf

[Qwertystop]

It means you want both together, or not at all (i.e. "X and Y")

Grey Wolf

Ah. I'll have to revise, then.