Belkar's Final Destination

[HackneyedTrope]

So, we all know (comic 572, I can't post links yet) that Belkar will see his end before the (in-comic) year is out. BUT, what next? He's too evil to ever get into not-abyss, based on the fact that his evil is measured in Kilonazis, but what next? He's to evil to not get eternal torment, but any eternal tormentor has to be wary of someday getting stabbed, sliced up, urinated on, made into a litterbox, etc...especially since the Rule of Funny is routinely in play on this webcomic, and most people are genre-savvy enough to recognize that. As such, I believe that Belkar's ultimate fate is to be a hit-man for the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission.

Uhh...yeah. So there. What do you think?

[hroþila]

Undone by the Snarl is a distinct possibility.

[LadyEowyn]

Undone by the Snarl is a distinct possibility.

I’d agree with that as the most likely possibility.

He’s had a whole life of gleefully killing people for amusement, he’s not going to make any of the Neutral afterlives just from a couple weeks of not doing anything especially evil.

[locksmith of lo]

He’s had a whole life of gleefully killing people for amusement, he’s not going to make any of the Neutral afterlives just from a couple weeks of not doing anything especially evil.

there is no possibility of redemption? he is on the road to redeeming himself so maybe his final act will be measured in mega-unicorns (tm) that will erase all of the kilo-nazi past damage.

[Peelee]

He's to evil to not get eternal torment, but any eternal tormentor has to be wary of someday getting stabbed, sliced up, urinated on, made into a litterbox, etc...

Even assuming we see his afterlife, you're assuming a remarkably low-level afterlife here.

[Synesthesy]

Belkar won't die at all, in Oracle's face
I think that, from Belkar's point of view, the neutral afterlife would be very boring. He could end in some sort of evil plane, but instead of being punished for eternity and/or become a demon, he'll become a supernatural fiend hunter.

[Fyraltari]

Even assuming we see his afterlife, you're assuming a remarkably low-level afterlife here.

Exactly, Belkar isn't king of the world now, why would he be in the Afterlife. Bear in mind if he is still CE when he dies and his soul is not unmade then he is headed to the same place as Xykon.

[Kish]

This thread is disappointing. I was expecting "is he actually changing enough not to go to the Abyss?" not, "is he too much of a badass for demons to dare to touch him?" which--as other people have pointed out--is just goofy. If he goes to the Abyss, he'll be broken down into a mindless mane like everyone else there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

he is headed to the same place as Xykon.

Nah. I picture Belkar more of CCE ("For the lulz") than a full CE. Yes, I am aware that Xykon does a lot of Evil because he's bored, but his general motivation is power for power's sake. If I'm reading the chart correctly, I'd imagine Xykon would end up in the Abyss, while Belkar is more the Pandemonium type. So, if Belkar is to have a companion as he is slowly driven mad into merging with the plane, it'd be Hilgya.

Grey Wolf

[Rrmcklin]

there is no possibility of redemption? he is on the road to redeeming himself so maybe his final act will be measured in mega-unicorns (tm) that will erase all of the kilo-nazi past damage.

The smiley makes me think this is a joke, but in case some of it isn't, redemption isn't that easy.

To the OP, do you honestly think that if Belkar went to the Abysss, he'd end up running the place because Genre Savvy/Rule of Funny? I honestly don't know what to say to that.

[Sloanzilla]

Since Belkar is a main character whose redemption attempt is being compared somewhat to Miko's failed redemption arc, then, yes, I feel like there will be some ultimate payout to the reader indicating at least some level of success.

We don't really have anything to indicate whether or not the selection process in the lower planes is based on net evilness or if what direction you are headed in is somehow equally as important or even more so. While this doesn't seem like a world in which deathbed confessions are that significant, Thor's discussion on how faith works does seem to imply that what you are doing/thinking/saying in your final moments has some added weight.

Storywise, it does seem like "where you are at the end" should have a bit more weight than an objective weighing of every portion of your adult life. Consider a paladin who spends 30 years as a good guy and the final 10 years of his or her life as a blackguard. Wouldn't that person be more Abyss-bound than someone who spent 30 years as a bandit and the final 10 years attempting to atone for past evils?

[Synesthesy]

Since Belkar is a main character whose redemption attempt is being compared somewhat to Miko's failed redemption arc, then, yes, I feel like there will be some ultimate payout to the reader indicating at least some level of success.

We don't really have anything to indicate whether or not the selection process in the lower planes is based on net evilness or if what direction you are headed in is somehow equally as important or even more so. While this doesn't seem like a world in which deathbed confessions are that significant, Thor's discussion on how faith works does seem to imply that what you are doing/thinking/saying in your final moments has some added weight.

Storywise, it does seem like "where you are at the end" should have a bit more weight than an objective weighing of every portion of your adult life. Consider a paladin who spends 30 years as a good guy and the final 10 years of his or her life as a blackguard. Wouldn't that person be more Abyss-bound than someone who spent 30 years as a bandit and the final 10 years attempting to atone for past evils?

For what we know, your afterlife can only be decided by your aligment in the time of your death. In this case, the blackguard of your example would go to an evil afterlife, while the bandit will go to a neutral or even good one.
This can be more true in ootsverse then other world, as aligments are metaphysical concept where you can't lie. Only if the bandit is honest with himself, he is really neutral or good. If he's faking for fear of a supernatural punishment, he isn't really good. This can be misured every time with the right spell(s).

Or intead afterlifes may be decided by what you did, and in this case, while the blackguard of your example seems directed to the lower planes, the bandit may or may not have done enough to escape his fate and go to a neutral plane.


The conversation between Roy and the Deva, IMHO, seems to go well with some kind of compromise of this way, so we can't be sure. The Deva question Roy's aligment at the time of death, but she also questioned what Roy did in his life to see if he was really lawful and good.
But for me, the true answer is the second, both by Deva's word and by V's story.

[zimmerwald1915]

Since Belkar is a main character whose redemption attempt is being compared somewhat to Miko's failed redemption arc, then, yes, I feel like there will be some ultimate payout to the reader indicating at least some level of success.

Why? There are at least three identifiable redemption arcs being juggled right now: Belkar's, Vaarsuvius's, and Redcloak's. Who says Belkar's is the one most likely to get a "good" ending?

[tomaO2]

Why? There are at least three identifiable redemption arcs being juggled right now: Belkar's, Vaarsuvius's, and Redcloak's. Who says Belkar's is the one most likely to get a "good" ending?

I would say he's the most likely because that's his character arc. Lets all keep in mind that every single member of the OOTS has undergone profound changes to themselves except Beklar. Even him being nice now isn't all that special, because the backer story showed us that he can try and do the right thing. He screwed up and went back to his old ways, but he did make a serious attempt at doing good there.

Roy has dealt with the issues of his father, his brother's death, and has fully embraced his ownership of the Greenhilt sword.
Durkon has dealt with his demons, and been accepted back into dwarven society.
Haley has moved on from only looking out for herself, saved her dad, and admitted to being in love with Elan.
Elan had finally accepted that his family is completely screwed up, and become a competent party member.
Varselous has finally gotten beyond her obsession with arcane power, although it was at an absurdly high cost.

Then Bekler, what has changed about him? Anything? The only thing he's got is this "redemption" arc he's currently on.

I don't know how long he'll live after he's become neutral, but he WILL become neutral before he dies. It would be nonsensical for him to be the only member of the OOTS that doesn't undergo character growth. The Giant is simply not going to do that. The next book should be having a strong focus on his character. Everyone else has gotten a big spotlight except him.

[Peelee]

I don't know how long he'll live after he's become neutral, but he WILL become neutral before he dies. It would be nonsensical for him to be the only member of the OOTS that doesn't undergo character growth.

He's had character growth. He's still having it now. Character growth doesn't necessitate becoming non-evil, though.

[tomaO2]

I didn't say he would become neutral because of character growth.

I said he would become neutral because this is his character ARC.

That's different. Every single member of the OOTS has had a major character arc except him, and there is no reason to think he will not get one as well. It would, in fact, be really disappointing if he didn't. Redcloak is better developed than Beklar, for crying out loud. Why does everyone else get their time to shine while Beklar languishes?

If Rich doesn't do anything with him, I think it's like saying that he just doesn't know what to do, so let's just kill him off. I think he's a better writer than that, as has been shown by the way he has grown so many other characters from their one note initial personalities.

This whole thing is too well telegraphed, and there is nothing else that is showing up as a possible catalyst for change on Beklar. I'm positive that this is going to be his thing.

[Peelee]

I didn't say he would become neutral because of character growth.

I said he would become neutral because this is his character ARC.

Unless his character arc was to go from a one-dimensional character to a three-dimensional character.

[RatElemental]

The deva did say something to Roy that may be pertinent to Belkar's fate: Trying matters.

If this whole apologizing for past misdeeds thing grows into genuine remorse and then into genuine attempts to be a better person, we have it from the mouth of a being made out of lawful goodness that that counts in the whole afterlife thing.

This isn't just some deathbed conversion begging for forgiveness thing we're talking about, Belkar has been telegraphing a change in outlook for a long while now. He's either starting to become the mask, or he's somehow so good at acting like he's turning over a new leaf he managed to fool the audience too.

[Peelee]

The deva did say something to Roy that may be pertinent to Belkar's fate: Trying matters.

If this whole apologizing for past misdeeds thing grows into genuine remorse and then into genuine attempts to be a better person, we have it from the mouth of a being made out of lawful goodness that that counts in the whole afterlife thing.

As far as Celestia goes. I doubt the Abyss would be so picky.

[Prinygod]

The deva did say something to Roy that may be pertinent to Belkar's fate: Trying matters.

If this whole apologizing for past misdeeds thing grows into genuine remorse and then into genuine attempts to be a better person, we have it from the mouth of a being made out of lawful goodness that that counts in the whole afterlife thing.

This isn't just some deathbed conversion begging for forgiveness thing we're talking about, Belkar has been telegraphing a change in outlook for a long while now. He's either starting to become the mask, or he's somehow so good at acting like he's turning over a new leaf he managed to fool the audience too.

The Deva also indicated that had Roy failed to save Elan, after initially abandoning him, he would be tossed into nuetral after life. So while trying matters, the results also matter.

[Fyraltari]

The Deva also indicated that had Roy failed to save Elan, after initially abandoning him, he would be tossed into nuetral after life. So while trying matters, the results also matter.

No, that's backwards:

Deva: I'll tell you, if you hadn't gone back, then wether he lived or died, I would be chucking your file into the True Neutral bin, right now.

[Jack Of Rivia]

Prediction.


A Slaad and a Demon will fight for possession over belkar soul. In the end he will be asked to choose, and he ll choose the Abyss.... because he is a sexy shoeless God Of War.

[Prinygod]

No, that's backwards:

Deva: I'll tell you, if you hadn't gone back, then wether he lived or died, I would be chucking your file into the True Neutral bin, right now.

Hmm I must have miss read what was said, or I had speculated at the time what would happened if Elan wasn't save and misremembered.

[woweedd]

Im predicting that either he gets unmade by The Snarl...Or, he doesn't, but dies, sacrificing his life to defeat it, in an act of courage and self-sacrifice that would have been unthinkable coming form him at the start of the comic. Last we hear from him, is a scream, coming from the general direction of Limbo, loud enough to permeate dimensions, "Wait, seriously? I've been Chaotic Evil my entire life!"

[Prinygod]

Hmm I must have miss read what was said, or I had speculated at the time what would happened if Elan wasn't save and misremembered.

Although I was wrong about this, thanks for the correction, I am not yet convinced that results don't matter. As evidence as the aforementioned belkar chart, Roy never states that he is trying to reform belkar. In the comics he only prevents belkar from doing evil infront of him. It was the deva itself whom put results before effort thanks to the chart. if Roy was unintentionally bringing belkar on a "murder tour", i suspect the conversation would be different

[NerdyKris]

I would place money on Rich not definitively stating he's been redeemed or not. Either unmade by the Snarl, or we don't see any of the afterlife with Belkar. Same as how we don't know where Miko ended up. Or Therkla. Some things should be left to the reader's interpretation.

[Prinygod]

I would place money on Rich not definitively stating he's been redeemed or not. Either unmade by the Snarl, or we don't see any of the afterlife with Belkar. Same as how we don't know where Miko ended up. Or Therkla. Some things should be left to the reader's interpretation.

He is a main character though, we saw Roy and Durkon in the after life. I think a lot of people would be rightfully mad if he kills off Belkar and doesn't tell us where all this character devolpment lands him in the end.

[RatElemental]

I would place money on Rich not definitively stating he's been redeemed or not. Either unmade by the Snarl, or we don't see any of the afterlife with Belkar. Same as how we don't know where Miko ended up. Or Therkla. Some things should be left to the reader's interpretation.

Pretty sure the giant actually confirmed Therkla's alignment at some point after her death. She'd be somewhere in the outlands since she was true neutral.

[Peelee]

He is a main character though, we saw Roy and Durkon in the after life. I think a lot of people would be rightfully mad if he kills off Belkar and doesn't tell us where all this character devolpment lands him in the end.

To be fair, their afterlives had important consequences. Belkar's may well not.

[Fyraltari]

And there was little doubt where they'd go, wasn't there?