I want to talk too

[Kaptin Keen]

a problem at your table

Is that what you think this is about?

Well, if so, no. No it is not. The sad truth about that is that at 48, we rarely meet in person to play anymore. Too scattered. Some stopped playing. So it's a couple of weekend sessions a year, and that's that - and there's absolutely no problems except we get to meet so rarely.

No, I'm here entirely and only on principle. Any statement I make is to be taken as general, I have zero personal involvement. Well except I'm personally involved on the principle. Consideration goes both ways, always - and don't assume that just because one guy feels bad about something, the other guy is doing it on purpose. Or, necessarily, has much of a choice in the matter.

The term 'victimless crime' is reasonably well known. But there is such a thing as an 'offenderless crime' also, and until this very moment, I'm not sure anyone but me ever used that term.

[johnbragg]

Without speaking specifically about the OP, this is important: He feels some people are ignoring him. But if you ask those other people - do they feel they are ignoring the OP? And I don't mean the OP, specifically, but I don't see how else to make the sentence clear. So what I mean is, anyone in the same situation as the OP.

There may be a victim, but I'm fairly sure there's no offender - at least not willfully so. And that's a very important distinction, because in the one case, you have a bully, and in the other, you have some guy just acting as is natural for him. In one case it's malicious, and in the other, it's happenstance.

But it's not "just happenstance." It's an entirely predictable result of a situation. If you're aware of the situation, and you don't do anything about it (like taking turns, like checking to see if other people are in the conversation or not, etc) then you're not being malicious, but you are being inconsiderate.

If you're morbidly obese, and you sit in a friend's chair and the chair breaks, you're not acting maliciously. But you're still responsible for the damage to the chair.

Consideration goes both ways, always -

That's great, but what consideration do we loud people need? (I was raised by a half-deaf mother, so I have a volume control problem. My hearing is fine, so I only share roughly at most half of your problem.)

What consideration do we need?

and don't assume that just because one guy feels bad about something, the other guy is doing it on purpose. Or, necessarily, has much of a choice in the matter.

The term 'victimless crime' is reasonably well known. But there is such a thing as an 'offenderless crime' also, and until this very moment, I'm not sure anyone but me ever used that term.

That's because it's not a valid concept.

What you may be reaching for is the concept "negligence"--someone else comes to harm that you could and should have prevented. You don't mean to talk over Mary Mousyvoice. I believe you. What are you doing to make sure you AREN'T talking over Mary Mousyvoice?

In US law there are crimes of mens rea, which means criminal intent. There is a category of negligence, which can be either a lesser criminal charge or civil liability, where there was no criminal intent, but your actions had the reasonably foreseeable result of the bad thing happening--you did not take due care. And there is "not guilty/ act of god", where the bad thing was not a reasonably foreseeable result--you acted as a responsible and reasonable person, but things happen.

..
..
I've thought a bit about "what consideration do we loud people need", and I think I've framed that badly in your case. The real question is "what consideration do the hearing impaired need?" And I think the answer to that is some form of signaling system that the quiet person is trying to talk. Normal-range-hearing people get that signal by hearing the voice.

So I think we come to the same result.

[Kaptin Keen]

But it's not "just happenstance."

Yes it is.

What consideration do we need?

What do you even mean? The same as everyone else.

That's because it's not a valid concept.

Yes, it is.

See, you're not willing to try and understand. And then I'm not willing to have a conversation.

I'm out. Have a nice discussion, thanks for your input, enjoy the weekend - bye =)

[Rhedyn]

I know it took our group awhile to convince the new girl that talking when other people are talking in an RPG isn't rude but expected and she should say what she wants to say rather than being "respectful".

Someone is always talking in a fun RPG session. If you refuse to "interrupt people" then you basically won't participate unless the session is bad.

Everyone knows the Loudmouth shouldn't shout people down. Few realize that the quiet shy person needs to actually talk and not immediately back down.

[Willie the Duck]

There is a danger of misunderstanding on the internet. None of this is personal to me. I have no victim complex. I have absolutely nothing against the OP, I sympathize, and I'm by no means arguing that he's wrong and I'm right and quiet people need to be trod underfoot by the loud voice master race. None of that. And if I somehow gave that impression, that's on me, and wasn't intended.

Thank you. Yes, I do believe that things came down in deviation from how you intended. I don't think it came out as, '[s/]he's wrong and I'm right and quiet people need to be trod underfoot by the loud voice master race,' so much as it seemed like [stereotype]you might have been sitting in a basement, wearing a fedora, and typing out tweets with the hashtag #notallloudpeople,[/stereotype] if that reference makes sense.

I'm arguing two points (if memory serves) and nothing else: Consideration needs to be both ways, and it's important to see both sides of the issue.

And that's legitimate, although the very act of framing it as sides (which we are all now doing) is treating the situation as an emotional football, so to speak, rather than an attempt to resolve a gamer's IRL problem.

There may be a victim, but I'm fairly sure there's no offender - at least not willfully so. And that's a very important distinction, because in the one case, you have a bully, and in the other, you have some guy just acting as is natural for him. In one case it's malicious, and in the other, it's happenstance.

You're right. There is likely not a willful offender. That, in general, is what happens when someone feels that others are being inconsiderate to them -- they are feeling that others aren't considering their situation. The entire issue is revolving around the unintentionally problematic actions of people who, by any reasonable assumption, are not trying to be harmful to each other. You don't join a gaming group to be deliberately disruptive to your fellow gamers (well, most people don't, and we have special names and horror stories related to those that do). The nonexistence of a willful offender is a true statement, but only a major point of discussion if we are obsessing on assigning blame, which I don't think anyone else thought was the goal here.

Actually the OP is about a quiet person who had no problem partaking in discussions in her table based group via rising hands but having problems when gaming over voice chat specifically because all optical signals are missing.

I am confused by your response. You say, 'actually,' but none of that contradicts what I said ('What has happened is that a thread was started about a quiet person (the OP) not being able to edge their way into the discussion of their gaming group'). What specifically are you contending?

So, no, the problem is not and never was about loud people being inconsiderate. It was about people not noticing when a quiet person wants something to say when audio is the only channel used.

I... did not use the word considerate once in reference to loud people at all in the post you are quoting (in the part you quoted or otherwise). I quoted the word in my quote of OP's response to Kaptin Keen, and then suggested that things would have gone different if Kaptin Keen had been more considerate in their response to perceived slights by the OP, but I never mentioned inconsiderateness in discussion of the general OP-presented situation (I certainly have now, as it has become part of the discussion). So from my perspective you are saying 'no' to my what I've said, but then completely refuted a position I did not take. This is all very odd, from my perspective.

[Kaptin Keen]

Thank you. Yes, I do believe that things came down in deviation from how you intended. I don't think it came out as, '[s/]he's wrong and I'm right and quiet people need to be trod underfoot by the loud voice master race,' so much as it seemed like [stereotype]you might have been sitting in a basement, wearing a fedora, and typing out tweets with the hashtag #notallloudpeople,[/stereotype] if that reference makes sense.

And that's legitimate, although the very act of framing it as sides (which we are all now doing) is treating the situation as an emotional football, so to speak, rather than an attempt to resolve a gamer's IRL problem.

You're right. There is likely not a willful offender. That, in general, is what happens when someone feels that others are being inconsiderate to them -- they are feeling that others aren't considering their situation. The entire issue is revolving around the unintentionally problematic actions of people who, by any reasonable assumption, are not trying to be harmful to each other. You don't join a gaming group to be deliberately disruptive to your fellow gamers (well, most people don't, and we have special names and horror stories related to those that do). The nonexistence of a willful offender is a true statement, but only a major point of discussion if we are obsessing on assigning blame, which I don't think anyone else thought was the goal here.

Sometimes it's difficult to express precisely what it is you want, when you're speaking a second language (even if you speak it well), and the subject matter is complicated. You sum up very succinctly what I'm trying to say, and I want to thank you for that. It's rare in an internet discussion - and rarer the more agitated - for anyone to be looking for the intended meaning, rather than for something to be upset about.

Thank you! And have a nice weekend. I shall now disengage myself from this thread =)

Maybe one last comment: Heated discussions are heated discussions. If I caused anyone any offense, my apologies. I aim not to, generally speaking.

[Mordaedil]

As far as I can tell, only one person has taken offense this entire thread.

Just because everyone agrees on something, doesn't mean it is an echo chamber.

[Zaharra]

I guess I should have clarified that I'm not particularly shy, I'm rather ebullient and convivial, but my voice doesn't carry and I do tend to stop talking when interrupted

Not entirely certain why the thread turned into an arguement about if it's rude to be loud, but there were some useful comments in there :) I do play with my mic at maximum volume and my DM has everyone else's volume turned down and mine turned up. There's another woman in my group but she has a contralto voice that carries well, so it's really just a me thing

Still haven't found a solution in my group yet, but we had a player drop and it's a little more manageable with three other players instead of four

[johnbragg]

I guess I should have clarified that I'm not particularly shy, I'm rather ebullient and convivial, but my voice doesn't carry and I do tend to stop talking when interrupted

Not entirely certain why the thread turned into an arguement about if it's rude to be loud, but there were some useful comments in there :) I do play with my mic at maximum volume and my DM has everyone else's volume turned down and mine turned up. There's another woman in my group but she has a contralto voice that carries well, so it's really just a me thing

Still haven't found a solution in my group yet, but we had a player drop and it's a little more manageable with three other players instead of four

It sounds like your DM is working with you. So I think the answer is to have the DM enforce turn-taking. Which is also more manageable the fewer players there are.

[MagneticKitty]

Discord tip: have them click on your name in voice chat and pull the volume up to max. You can also adjust your Mic sensitivity in of settings and discord settings.