Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

[Karl Aegis]

Most of the ECL comes from the Spirit Away ability. As a cosmic ability, it's worth 36 feats or 6 ECL. The rest of the abilities are worth the other 6 ECL, +50% for the equipment of 18 levels.

[noob]

I think at some point they forgot what spellcasting did or what any rule of dnd did or that you had to roll for dices used in attacks.

[Karl Aegis]

I think at some point they forgot what spellcasting did or what any rule of dnd did or that you had to roll for dices used in attacks.

Oh, there are abilities where you can always roll max. You only have to roll if you want to try to get a natural 20.

[noob]

Oh, there are abilities where you can always roll max. You only have to roll if you want to try to get a natural 20.

I was thinking about the damage dice.
when a monster deals 66d100 you throw 132 dice.

[Karl Aegis]

I was thinking about the damage dice.
when a monster deals 66d100 you throw 132 dice.

Yes, Perfect Weapon Specialization and Evenhanded Divine Abilities let you deal maximum damage with a weapon or unarmed strikes, respectively. Combined with the Epic Feat Weapon Mastery you can have Perfect Weapon Specialization apply to all bludgeoning (or piercing, slashing or missile), making Evenhanded pretty moot unless you were going for a Sticky Strike build or something.

[noob]

Yes, Perfect Weapon Specialization and Evenhanded Divine Abilities let you deal maximum damage with a weapon or unarmed strikes, respectively. Combined with the Epic Feat Weapon Mastery you can have Perfect Weapon Specialization apply to all bludgeoning (or piercing, slashing or missile), making Evenhanded pretty moot unless you were going for a Sticky Strike build or something.

does not fix that sur ability that makes you throw 66d100.
Also if you did not pick either option you are still stuck throwing tons of dice.
maybe there should be a rule like "above 40 dice(D100 being counted as 2 dice) you average the results instead of throwing the dice unless you have an ability which would change the value of the dice"

[Karl Aegis]

does not fix that sur ability that makes you throw 66d100.
Also if you did not pick either option you are still stuck throwing tons of dice.
maybe there should be a rule like "above 40 dice(D100 being counted as 2 dice) you average the results instead of throwing the dice unless you have an ability which would change the value of the dice"

Sounds like minis

[Aniikinis]

Flaga, CR Varies

(No picture, the sample creature is a glowing blonde giant dude.)

The Flaga is another template, a boring one at that. It adds +10 to the monster’s CR. So, this template might not even make the creature you apply it to epic. Nice.

The Flaga get maximum hp for each HD, their movement speed doubles, they get their WIS and CHA to AC, and some SLAs. The only one of the latter that’s worth noting at ALL, is Greater Planar Ally 1/week which can summon a Planetar.

The Flaga also gets scaling DR (evil and magic) a magical circle of projection against evil and two actually useful powers. The first is that the Flaga ignores the first attack or spell cast against them every round. The second is that if they’re about to die, they get gated back to the upper planes.

This template is really uninspired and is putting me to sleep. Next!

Template really sucks due to the designers not understanding how balance works and what players would be doing with certain abilities at such a level. Not to mention the fact that at those levels most of the abilities aren't even very useful.

I'm not super interested in the "good guy" epic monsters and stuff, I'm waiting to see what kind of epic demons and devils crop up. But I'd probably consider taking the Flaga template on a PC assuming I was trying to stay martial instead of breaking the world over my knee as a caster.

I'd like to point out that this book is titled "The Immortal's Handbook: Epic Bestiary Part 1". We don't get very much since it's ordered alphabetically and only goes to like G. Also the demons and devils aren't very inspired at all.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Kyriotates, CR 84

Spoiler: Picture

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Image link.

There are only 7 of the Kyriotates in all of existence and they apparently serve as key advisors to the “king of heaven”.

They have DR and Regeneration 30 which can be bypassed by evil and epic attacks. The Kyriotates can command up to 900 HD of creatures (like a Rod of Epic Rulership), they have a breath weapon, they can turn any evil creature like it’s undead, they have an aura that everyone must save VS or be stunned (repeat every round), and they cast as a level 33 Cleric. They get some SLAs, but the only noteworthy one is Miracle once per day.

The Kyriotates get a collection of artifacts, and I have to say that’s starting to get old. They have a crown that blocks the first three spells cast at the wearer and a robe that keeps them from “being physically injured” unless they have committed a “sin” or hostile action that day. Have fun arguing with your DM about that one.

Honestly, all the angels are starting to blur together at this point. This is another case of “if it’s played like an optimized spellcaster, it’s a nightmare” sort of monster.

[noob]

Kyriotates, CR 84

Spoiler: Picture

Show

Image link.

There are only 7 of the Kyriotates in all of existence and they apparently serve as key advisors to the “king of heaven”.

They have DR and Regeneration 30 which can be bypassed by evil and epic attacks. The Kyriotates can command up to 900 HD of creatures (like a Rod of Epic Rulership), they have a breath weapon, they can turn any evil creature like it’s undead, they have an aura that everyone must save VS or be stunned (repeat every round), and they cast as a level 33 Cleric. They get some SLAs, but the only noteworthy one is Miracle once per day.

The Kyriotates get a collection of artifacts, and I have to say that’s starting to get old. They have a crown that blocks the first three spells cast at the wearer and a robe that keeps them from “being physically injured” unless they have committed a “sin” or hostile action that day. Have fun arguing with your DM about that one.

Honestly, all the angels are starting to blur together at this point. This is another case of “if it’s played like an optimized spellcaster, it’s a nightmare” sort of monster.

does it have epic spellcasting?

[ColorBlindNinja]

does it have epic spellcasting?

Yeah, along with 6 epic spell slots.

Epic Dispel is the only it has that I think that's worth casting, though.

[Lleban]

Not much of a competition but lion dude was the most memorable of the bunch.

[JMS]

Not much of a competition but lion dude was the most memorable of the bunch.

I think it was a competition, but one that had no outstanding players. Less World Series/Superbowl/World Cup/Olympics/Ect. and more bored kindergarteners who think they are amazing.

(Still taking notes for a game I decided to run, but of the "what not to do" variety)

[ColorBlindNinja]

Malakim, CR 56

Spoiler: Pic

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Image link.

Malakim are assassin angels and manage to be even more boring than the Kyrioates. They have the same style of damage reduction and Regeneration as the rest of the angels (DR 20 and regen 30) that’s bypassed by epic and evil.

Malakim get Rogue abilities and have a 50% miss chance. Other than that, they have a bunch of useless SLAs save for Miracle. And they always hit touch AC. Because that makes up for not having any level appropriate abilities, right?

I think these might be the weakest monsters yet. The Malakim aren’t going to stand up to level 50+ party, they’ll just die horribly. They can summon an Elohim, but those suck too.

I’m getting really sick of these uninspired angels, I can’t wait to be done with them. If it wasn’t obvious before, it’s really apparent now that the author didn’t have a clue what he was doing.

[Lleban]

The weirdest bit is how little they can use miracle.

[Elricaltovilla]

Angelic Assassin is an idea that I don't think has ever really been done well. At epic levels it just seems ridiculous to bother with.

Also, since it always hits touch AC, doesn't that mean it can't use power attack?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Also, since it always hits touch AC, doesn't that mean it can't use power attack?

Why wouldn't it be able to use Power Attack? Shouldn't hitting touch AC making it easier to use PA?

[Elricaltovilla]

Why wouldn't it be able to use Power Attack? Shouldn't hitting touch AC making it easier to use PA?

Power attack can't be used in combination with Touch Attacks. At least that was my understanding.

The difference is whether its normal attacks hit touch AC (while still being normal attacks) or if its making touch attacks in place of normal attack rolls. I ran into this issue while working on Path of War: Expanded.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Power attack can't be used in combination with Touch Attacks. At least that was my understanding.

I've never heard anything about that. Can you quote the relevant portion of the rules for me?

The difference is whether its normal attacks hit touch AC (while still being normal attacks) or if its making touch attacks in place of normal attack rolls.

I believe it's the former.

[Blackhawk748]

The angels are really giving me Exalted vibes. Like, if you wanna do something that insanely over the top, don't put it in DnD, put it in Exalted, where its at least semi designed for that.

On the other hand, I'm laughing at the massive over (or under) kill

[ColorBlindNinja]

The angels are really giving me Exalted vibes. Like, if you wanna do something that insanely over the top, don't put it in DnD, put it in Exalted, where its at least semi designed for that.

I think that's the entire point of this book, though.

On the other hand, I'm laughing at the massive over (or under) kill

Wait until we get to the quadruple digit CR monsters.

[Elricaltovilla]

I've never heard anything about that. Can you quote the relevant portion of the rules for me?

I guess it's a Pathfinder only thing. So I was wrong.

[Blackhawk748]

I think that's the entire point of this book, though.

I know, and Im always suprised when game designers don't seem to understand the limits of their systems. DnD breaks beyond any real realm of functioning post 20. You're better off recreating your characters in Exalted and playing with that.

Wait until we get to the quadruple digit CR monsters.

The what now?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I guess it's a Pathfinder only thing. So I was wrong.

Ah, I see.

I know, and Im always suprised when game designers don't seem to understand the limits of their systems. DnD breaks beyond any real realm of functioning post 20. You're better off recreating your characters in Exalted and playing with that.

A common sentiment from what I've seen.

The what now?

The highest CR monster in this book is CR 9,721. Sadly, I'm not joking.

[Blackhawk748]

The highest CR monster in this book is CR 9,721. Sadly, I'm not joking.

Wha.... what possible reason is there to have a thing with a CR that high? Something that powerful shouldnt have stats!

[Elricaltovilla]

I always wanted to try out Exalted. It's an amazing setting, but Solars don't really interest me, Lunars being forcibly bonded to Solars goes against my sensibilities in the worst possible way, and I can't wrap my head around the combat system for 3E at all. So I'm stuck waiting for the more interesting Exalts to come out.

Also, I don't have anyone else to play with.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wha.... what possible reason is there to have a thing with a CR that high? Something that powerful shouldnt have stats!

Again, that's another reason this book exists in the first place, to give stats to exceedingly powerful entities.

My main concern here is a bit different. I don't believe that any being is too powerful to be given stats.

No, no, what I'm bothered by is the apparent notion that anyone would play a level 1000+ game.

Seriously, how many people are going to do that? When would these monsters ever get used?

[Blackhawk748]

Again, that's another reason this book exists in the first place, to give stats to exceedingly powerful entities.

My main concern here is a bit different. I don't believe that any being is too powerful to be given stats.

No, no, what I'm bothered by is the apparent notion that anyone would play a level 1000+ game.

Seriously, how many people are going to do that? When would these monsters ever get used?

Thats basically what I mean. If you will never engage the thing in any sane game, why does it need stats? Kinda why I don't like Cthullu having stats, you arent supposed to fight the thing.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If you will never engage the thing in any sane game, why does it need stats? Kinda why I don't like Cthullu having stats, you arent supposed to fight the thing.

Stats aren't just for fighting, though.

What if you need to bluff Cthulhu, for example?

It's nice to have stats to answer questions like that.

[unseenmage]

...

No, no, what I'm bothered by is the apparent notion that anyone would play a level 1000+ game.

...

Are there even enough game elements to flesh out 1,000 PC class levels?

In that theoretical game are there even any other monsters that could compete?

Even one creature with the maximum number of different templates is doubtful to get that high.

Evolved Undead could theoretically get a CR that big but its doubtful it'd be able to compete.