Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

[DLcygnet]

Shouldn't Oona and Greyview be listed for Team Evil? I keep hoping to see them and get rewarded with long-dead Tsukiko.
Here are some bugbear and worg templates. With as many dungeon crawls as they've done, they've probably been power-leveled to whatever plot-driven requirement they need to be - 13+ to be on par with the Order; 17+ to be on par with the rest of team Evil.

[Gift Jeraff]

Minor spoilers from Book 6 commentary regarding Durkon and Minrah's role within the party:

Spoiler

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It would be wrong to say she'll be a full-fledged member of the party, though; she's more like Durkon's cohort, to use a game term.

Similar to Leeky Windstaff and Pompey, should Durkon be listed as having the Leadership feat?

[Reboot]

Similar to Leeky Windstaff and Pompey, should Durkon be listed as having the Leadership feat?

That would carry implications for Minrah's level. If Durkon had the Leadership feat and Minrah was his cohort, then with Durkon's level at 13 (as the first post has it), her maximum total level would be 9+(Durkon's CHA modifier)≤11. If he has a CHA penalty of 1, that would mean she could be no more than L8.

[Schroeswald]

It seems to me that we shouldn't, it seems its more a comparison than a legitimate statement of rules.

[Quartz]

That would carry implications for Minrah's level. If Durkon had the Leadership feat and Minrah was his cohort, then with Durkon's level at 13 (as the first post has it), her maximum total level would be 9+(Durkon's CHA modifier)≤11. If he has a CHA penalty of 1, that would mean she could be no more than L8.

There are possible positive modifiers too. I think Durkon qualifies for all of the +4 total modifiers on that page.

+2 Great reknown - check - The Order of the Stick.
+1 Fairness and generosity - check - he raised her, after all.
+1 Special Power - divine mission - check

So Minrah could be as high as level 11 despite Durkon having a negative Cha mod.

[danielxcutter]

Unless Durkon is 15th-level now, I doubt he's grabbed Leadership. She's probably a DMPC or allied NPC.

[Peelee]

There are possible positive modifiers too. I think Durkon qualifies for all of the +4 total modifiers on that page.

+2 Great reknown - check - The Order of the Stick.

Literally everyone they've ever met : "the who?"

[Doug Lampert]

Literally everyone they've ever met : "the who?"

In any case, I did not get the impression that Rich meant she was a cohort, he just says she's closer to that than to being a member of the party. Giving Durkon leadership and declaring Minrah a cohort strikes me as actively against the statement given.

[Peelee]

In any case, I did not get the impression that Rich meant she was a cohort, he just says she's closer to that than to being a member of the party. Giving Durkon leadership and declaring Minrah a cohort strikes me as actively against the statement given.

Imean, yeah, that too, but I think I'm funny.

[Jasdoif]

Literally everyone they've ever met : "the who?"

Think they'll get fooled again?

[Peelee]

Think they'll get fooled again?

Depends on whether the new boss is same as the old boss, really.

[Reboot]

Depends on whether the new boss is same as the old boss, really.

They're just a substitute for some other guys.

[Jasdoif]

Depends on whether the new boss is same as the old boss, really.

Oh, so like they weren't fooled when Haley took over for Roy('s corpse), but were fooled when Roy took over for Haley after that?

[Peelee]

Oh, so like they weren't fooled when Haley took over for Roy('s corpse), but were fooled when Roy took over for Haley after that?

Nah, Roy was still an old boss. They were fooled when Durkon suddenly started saying "hey we should fix this vampire thing how about let's go here."

[dmc91356]

Elan could take up the squeeze box . . .

[D.One]

Literally everyone they've ever met : "the who?"

Nah, just a bunch of doctors... very strange, indeed.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Do we know how V is able to carry Durkon in 835? We know V has a Strength penalty, but according to my calculations Durkon plus his armor would weigh somewhere in the realm of 200 lbs, meaning V would need at least 16 Str to carry him according to the carrying capacity table. Even if we assume V is using Bull's Strength, that only gets us to a maximum of 13 Str.

Maybe V was encumbered? Ze spent a minute to take the two of them up 300 feet and another minute to go down. It's not like there was a huge time pressure at the moment.

The numbers till don't quite work out (2 X max str 9 carrying capacatiy is only 180 lbs) but it's close enough for fudging.

The only issue here is that this implies that V prepared Overland Flight 4 times that day, is this too implausible? Does it contradict other uses of V's 5th level spells that day? By my reckoning, V gets 6 5th's at level 15, but one has to be an Evocation spell.

V can also use higher level spell slots for the task. Given that they expected to be 5Xd100 miles away it's completely reasonable to devote alot of maic towards getting back to the group.

Shouldn't Oona and Greyview be listed for Team Evil? I keep hoping to see them and get rewarded with long-dead Tsukiko. .

I think the issue is that we don't have any stats nailed down for them.

[Schroeswald]

I think the issue is that we don't have any stats nailed down for them.

We have a teeny tiny bit that there is no debate on (I knew I saved a bunch of random minimal stats for a reason):
Oona
Bugbear Female
Str ~ 14 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Con ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Cha ~ 8 (no evidence, racial
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting (the prerequisites aren’t included cause she might be a non-casting Ranger)
Abilities: Bugbear racial abilities
Items: Morningstar, dagger, mask, sack of monster parts
Though if you think there is enough evidence for her being a Beast Heart Adept (the only class known that could give her monster companions of a worg and ythrak, the debate is over whether or not there is enough evidence for Lancer and Greyview being her companions), we have a bit more:
Oona
Bugbear Female Unknown 6+ (to get prerequisite skills for Beast Heart Adept)/Beast Heart Adept 9+ (to have Ythrak companion)
Str ~ 14 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Con ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Cha ~ 8 (no evidence, racial
Feats: Animal Affinity (prerequisite for Beast Heart Adept), Two-Weapon Fighting
Skills: Handle Animal 8+, Knowledge: Arcana 4+, Knowledge: Dungeoneering 4+ (all prerequisites for Beast Heart Adept)
Abilities: Bugbear racial abilities, Beast Heart Adept class abilities, monstrous companions: Lancer and Greyview
Items: Morningstar, dagger, mask, sack of monster parts

[Peelee]

~
(no evidence)

Those two are the big sticklers, though, because everyone else has either an exact number, or a ceiling or floor, and everything has evidence backing it.

[Schroeswald]

Those two are the big sticklers, though, because everyone else has either an exact number, or a ceiling or floor, and everything has evidence backing it.

What? The only time I have no evidence is for the Abity Scores where being a bugbear modifies the score, something that other entries also have and I matched the format they have, Redcloak has it for his Str and Dex, all the dwarves have it for con, Leaky for Strength+Con, Tarquin’s non-Strength+Charisma scores, Xykon has age and lichdom for Int+Wis, really most non-humans and people at least middle aged have a few scores based on the race IIRC.

[Jasdoif]

Though if you think there is enough evidence for her being a Beast Heart Adept (the only class known that could give her monster companions of a worg and ythrak, the debate is over whether or not there is enough evidence for Lancer and Greyview being her companions)

I've yet to see any "debate" on why Lancer should be a monstrous companion. On Greyview, I find it unconvincing but understandable; On Lancer, it appears to be solely because "Beast Heart Adept 9+" looks better than "Beast Heart Adept 1+".

[Peelee]

What? The only time I have no evidence is for the Abity Scores where being a bugbear modifies the score, something that other entries also have and I matched the format they have, Redcloak has it for his Str and Dex, all the dwarves have it for con, Leaky for Strength+Con, Tarquin’s non-Strength+Charisma scores, Xykon has age and lichdom for Int+Wis, really most non-humans and people at least middle aged have a few scores based on the race IIRC.

Yeah, I phrased that badly. Let me rephrase:

No listed character has all their ability scores as just guesses with racial modifiers. That just seems like a pretty big jump to me.

[Schroeswald]

Yeah, I phrased that badly. Let me rephrase:

No listed character has all their ability scores as just guesses with racial modifiers. That just seems like a pretty big jump to me.

Though I’m less baffled by this one, this isn’t true either, we have 3 kobolds, Serini, Kraagor, Shojo and Ian all listed without any floors, exact numbers or ceilings in their ability modifiers, just estimates based on age and race.

Also, I do support including Oona (and the stat blocks for Right-Eye and Jirix I drew up but am too lazy to currently repost) in the Team Evil section as she fits under the same reason we have 4 kobolds, Shojo, Jacinda, a good chunk of the rest of the Linear Guild and OOTScribble, she’s a named member of a group that we have sections for.

[Peelee]

Though I’m less baffled by this one, this isn’t true either, we have 3 kobolds, Serini, Kraagor, Shojo and Ian all listed without any floors, exact numbers or ceilings in their ability modifiers, just estimates based on age and race.

Well dang, looks like I should have checked instead of relying on my memory there.

(and the stat blocks for Right-Eye and Jirix I drew up but am too lazy to currently repost)

I will always accept that excuse, given how often I use it myself.

[Riftwolf]

Bugbear Female Unknown 6+ (to get prerequisite skills for Beast Heart Adept)/Beast Heart Adept 9+ (to have Ythrak companion)

Wouldn't it be Racial HD 3/Unknown 3+/Beast Heart Adept 9+? I'm not seeing any reason why her RHD couldn't learn some of the skills required.

[DLcygnet]

I think the issue is that we don't have any stats nailed down for them.

There are plenty of characters in the list where we have no info on them and they're still listed (MitD, half the Vector Legion, etc). Is the thread owner on extended leave of absence?

[Ephemera]

There are plenty of characters in the list where we have no info on them and they're still listed (MitD, half the Vector Legion, etc). Is the thread owner on extended leave of absence?

I’m not sure I see what the urgency is here to get the nearly blank entries up. I’m not even sure that Oona is necessarily a full-fledged member of team evil, and I would also say that the thread has informally moved from a stance of “we include exactly the characters that fit some description” to “we lean towards including characters that we have some real stats for, regardless of their exact team status.”

Furthermore, it’s mandated by forum rules that the curator is supposed to be expressing consensus, but making judgement calls. And it’s holiday time.

All of which adds up to: I’m sure he’ll get to it as it seems appropriate and in the meantime, you have some mostly blank stat blocks posted here if you really need them.

Personally I think there’s enough evidence to classify Oona as a beast heart adept, we’ve assigned Belkar an animal companion on no firmer evidence and it’s the least convoluted explanation. Plus I always like assumptions that let us generate stats, but that’s just my personal bias.

[D.One]

I'm usually in favor of including more characters, if for nothing else, for the oportunity to geek out over them while we wait for more information on the main and secondary characters.

I’m not sure I see what the urgency is here to get the nearly blank entries up. I’m not even sure that Oona is necessarily a full-fledged member of team evil, and I would also say that the thread has informally moved from a stance of “we include exactly the characters that fit some description” to “we lean towards including characters that we have some real stats for, regardless of their exact team status.”

Furthermore, it’s mandated by forum rules that the curator is supposed to be expressing consensus, but making judgement calls. And it’s holiday time.

All of which adds up to: I’m sure he’ll get to it as it seems appropriate and in the meantime, you have some mostly blank stat blocks posted here if you really need them.

Personally I think there’s enough evidence to classify Oona as a beast heart adept, we’ve assigned Belkar an animal companion on no firmer evidence and it’s the least convoluted explanation. Plus I always like assumptions that let us generate stats, but that’s just my personal bias.

I think we can try to build Oona and her beasts, among others, but I agree we are in no hurry for that, because we have very little to work with, and won't have much more until the return next year (unless there's any intel in the last book).

I also think we should avoid ability scores solely displayed as "no evidence, racial", mostly because no evidence at all. If we should display ability scores for which we have no evidence beyond race, it would be better, I think, to display an upper limit, a lower limit, or a range beetween lower and upper limits. Example: A high elf's (below middle age) dexterity should read Dex 5+ (no evidence, racial).

I know we did the (no evidence, racial) plenty in the past, and there are lots of characters with that in one or another ability score. We can eventually clean that up, but that would require some analysis on each character, so I'm suggesting ( "Suggestion") that we start with the new additions and include them already clean.

[knag]

I also think we shoul[d] avoid ability scores solely displayed as "no evidence, racial", mostly because no evidence at all.

I concur. I don't like the racial average abilities. There's no reason why any character wouldn't have scores different from the racial average. I generally don't use them on the wiki.

[DLcygnet]

Though if you think there is enough evidence for her being a Beast Heart Adept (the only class known that could give her monster companions of a worg and ythrak...

Don't forget the Remorhaz from the 2016 calendar! Does anything shown in Calendars count as cannon? I thought she was another ranger like Belkar when I saw her using a cat toy to play with this giant ice centipede.