What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[woweedd]

If he knew the wizard existed, and thought the wizard was still alive, why wasn't the wizard consulted about planning the battle?

And a second question: Shojo said that the wizard would be resurrected "tomorrow". Now we know that Shojo was killed the next day, but why would he have waited for the afternoon to resurrect the wizard? Why not resurrect him first thing in the morning, after the Cleric had refreshed his spells? And if he HAD resurrected him in the morning, it again brings up the question as to why Hinjo did not employ the wizard in defending the city.

I think the only logical explanation is that the wizard was in the employ of another noble, that he was resurrected the next morning and sent back to his employer (probably with some compensation for the lost level) and Hinjo was none the wiser. The term "in my personal staff" just meant "was working for me at the time"





Sure it was. After all, when she fought Hinjo she didn't lose her Paladin powers. It was only when she killed Shojo. So why should she lose them by fighting the Order? If she had killed one of them, then she certainly would have been stripped of her power, but we have explicit evidence in the comic that fighting someone over a cause that you believe to be Good but is instead Evil isn't enough to lose your Paladin powers. Therefore, it isn't much of a reach to believe that saying something that you believe to be true but is instead a lie isn't enough to lose you Paladin powers.

Well, any of them except Belkar would have caused her to Fall if killed. Killing Belkar is always morally-justified.

[Worldsong]

Well, any of them except Belkar would have caused her to Fall if killed. Killing Belkar is always morally-justified.

What if he's protecting Mr. Scruffy?

[woweedd]

What if he's protecting Mr. Scruffy?

Fair enough.

[factotum]

Well, any of them except Belkar would have caused her to Fall if killed. Killing Belkar is always morally-justified.

No, it isn't. Killing people because they ping as evil is entirely the wrong way to play a Paladin, and Miko was intended as a cliff's note version of how *not* to play one. If she'd killed Belkar in cold blood and with no good reason, she would have Fallen, no question, she just probably wouldn't have got the personal "You messed up!" light show from the 12 gods for it.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Well, any of them except Belkar would have caused her to Fall if killed. Killing Belkar is always morally-justified.

Has Belkar been confirmed evil? He has the lead sheet!

[hroþila]

If he knew the wizard existed, and thought the wizard was still alive, why wasn't the wizard consulted about planning the battle?

And a second question: Shojo said that the wizard would be resurrected "tomorrow". Now we know that Shojo was killed the next day, but why would he have waited for the afternoon to resurrect the wizard? Why not resurrect him first thing in the morning, after the Cleric had refreshed his spells? And if he HAD resurrected him in the morning, it again brings up the question as to why Hinjo did not employ the wizard in defending the city.

I think the only logical explanation is that the wizard was in the employ of another noble, that he was resurrected the next morning and sent back to his employer (probably with some compensation for the lost level) and Hinjo was none the wiser. The term "in my personal staff" just meant "was working for me at the time"

I think it's likely that the reason the high priest of the Twelve Gods used Resurrection instead of Raise Dead on Shojo (aside from it being clearer for non-players) is that he was instructed to prepare that spell for the dead wizard. The reason they didn't resurrect the wizard first thing in the morning is that there was no rush, and the high priest (presumably one of the few if not the only cleric who could resurrect the wizard) might probably have stuff to do of his own that Shojo considered more urgent or important. As for who the wizard worked for, I don't think it's necessary to posit such creative language. "Personal staff" is very clear. In my opinion, Hinjo simply didn't know about the teleporting wizard, and thus he wasn't raised the next day either. If he was Shojo's secret weapon, it also explains why Shojo wouldn't task him with ferrying paladins around in their missions.

[Fyraltari]

Has Belkar been confirmed evil? He has the lead sheet!

Haven’t we established that Belkar is Lawful Good with Neutral tendencies?

[Squire Doodad]

No, it isn't. Killing people because they ping as evil is entirely the wrong way to play a Paladin, and Miko was intended as a cliff's note version of how *not* to play one. If she'd killed Belkar in cold blood and with no good reason, she would have Fallen, no question, she just probably wouldn't have got the personal "You messed up!" light show from the 12 gods for it.

I think the 12 Gods have a "sufficiently goaded into killing an unarmed assailant" clause (for instance, if Miko killed Belkar right when he expected her to in Azure City), but if it was "Miko pops up in the middle of the night with a katana" then killing anyone like that will generally cause le Fall.

[Kish]

I think Haley is quite right to be as conservative as she is when she says that she's only certain of one act that will cause a paladin to fall in OotS, "killing their defenseless liege lord."

Though I concede that Rich seems to feel a level of disapproval for the idea of killing Belkar, the known sadistic serial killer, in his sleep that he does not for killing random goblins in their sleep, and he ultimately makes the rules here.

[martianmister]

Ironically, according to to Roy, ping as evil is enough reason to be treated as guilty.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html

[hamishspence]

The irony is, had it actually been cast, it would have revealed "Nale" is not evil - and thus, triggered suspicions about the whole identity switcheroo, much earlier.

[martianmister]

The irony is, had it actually been cast, it would have revealed "Nale" is not evil - and thus, triggered suspicions about the whole identity switcheroo, much earlier.

Not the irony I had in my mind.

[Kelenius]

Ironically, according to to Roy, ping as evil is enough reason to be treated as guilty.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html

Did you miss the part where the linear guild has tried to kill them before and that they literally just walked in on them what appeared to be a summoning ritual involving several dead bodies? He's not using it as a reason to be treated as guilty, he's suggesting to use it to confirm their guilt.

[CriticalFailure]

What would've happened had Azure City rebuffed the invasion? I don't think Shojo being in control would've saved them, but it they would've had a better chance at least. Shojo being in control might've slowed things down enough that Redcloak didn't make it to the throne room, leading to Xykon being destroyed by the ghost martyrs earlier since he didn't know what he was doing. I guess if Miko hadn't come in at that point she probably would've died fighting Xykon with the rest and become a ghost martyr as well.

How exactly do the ghost martyrs even work? If Xykon were to be destroyed and start regenerating, do they disappear again because there's no longer an active threat? Could they leave the throne room? Unless they had a way to leave, the hobgoblin army probably still takes the city and then Xykon and Redcloak have a bunch of time on their hands sitting down and thinking about how to defeat them.
Also, Hinjo, the Order, and others would probably be a lot less willing to retreat with the Gate still vulnerable to being taken.

[martianmister]

Did you miss the part where the linear guild has tried to kill them before and that they literally just walked in on them what appeared to be a summoning ritual involving several dead bodies? He's not using it as a reason to be treated as guilty, he's suggesting to use it to confirm their guilt.

None of those matters, though? Point is, detected as evil is enough reason to prove their guilt, according to Roy.

[HorizonWalker]

None of those matters, though? Point is, detected as evil is enough reason to prove their guilt, according to Roy.

No, Roy's saying that Detect Evil registering evil, alongside all this circumstantial evidence, is enough to prove someone's guilt.

[martianmister]

No, Roy's saying that Detect Evil registering evil, alongside all this circumstantial evidence, is enough to prove someone's guilt.

Just like Miko, hence ironic.

[Kelenius]

None of those matters, though? Point is, detected as evil is enough reason to prove their guilt, according to Roy.

No, Roy's saying that Detect Evil registering evil, alongside all this circumstantial evidence, is enough to prove someone's guilt.

Just like Miko, hence ironic.

Not quite. Miko says that "they were evil, so I killed them". As for Roy, he actually says "a few divinations", implying that DE was only his first suggestion.

[woweedd]

I think Haley is quite right to be as conservative as she is when she says that she's only certain of one act that will cause a paladin to fall in OotS, "killing their defenseless liege lord."

Though I concede that Rich seems to feel a level of disapproval for the idea of killing Belkar, the known sadistic serial killer, in his sleep that he does not for killing random goblins in their sleep, and he ultimately makes the rules here.

As a Lawful type, I will admit that is something I agree with Rich on. The goblin thing also weirds me out, but I consider everything pre-castle-explosion to be semi-canonical at best. That said, I would have no objections to challenging Belkar to an honorable duel. Fully awake, and given a chance to fight back. Of course, against Roy, he'd lose anyway, but them's the breaks. That way, he's dead, but killed by a way that is fully within the confines of being both Lawful and Good. Also, i'll note that the Deva feels uneasy with killing Belkar in his sleep, which is to be expected from an embodiment of Law and Good. I don't doubt that an embodiment of Chaotic Good would have responded "Frankly, my main concern is ensuring he doesn't get to slit any more throats: Get that done, and not in a way you're doing it, because that is not working". See Exhibit A: Crystal, twice.

[Keltest]

The difference between the goblins and Belkar is that the goblins were legitimate enemy combatants who had been incapacitated, whereas Belkar is nominally an ally who has thus far been treated as such. Roy isn't obligated to give the goblins a fair fight just because he's Lawful Good, theyre a hostile army and Roy needs to protect the lives and well being of his party members as best he can.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The difference between the goblins and Belkar is that the goblins were legitimate enemy combatants who had been incapacitated, whereas Belkar is nominally an ally who has thus far been treated as such. Roy isn't obligated to give the goblins a fair fight just because he's Lawful Good, theyre a hostile army and Roy needs to protect the lives and well being of his party members as best he can.

There is also a grey area in the business of "they were asleep". Sure, they were asleep in this case because of the joke about V being boring, but had V used a sleep spell instead, would that still be immoral? Why? It's a save-or-die spell. No different except in the fluff to, say, disintegration, and only slightly different from fireball. Had V blasted all the goblins to tDO's lap with their usual gusto, no-one would be accusing Roy of anything. I really don't see how this is worse than if they'd all been blinded and sneaked-attack to death.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

There is also a grey area in the business of "they were asleep". Sure, they were asleep in this case because of the joke about V being boring, but had V used a sleep spell instead, would that still be immoral? Why? It's a save-or-die spell. No different except in the fluff to, say, disintegration, and only slightly different from fireball. Had V blasted all the goblins to tDO's lap with their usual gusto, no-one would be accusing Roy of anything. I really don't see how this is worse than if they'd all been blinded and sneaked-attack to death.

Grey Wolf

I'd say it has to do with the fact that they were rendered incapable of harming the Order of the Stick, making further harm redundant.

[Keltest]

I'd say it has to do with the fact that they were rendered incapable of harming the Order of the Stick, making further harm redundant.

Do people just think sleep effects are permanent or something?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'd say it has to do with the fact that they were rendered incapable of harming the Order of the Stick, making further harm redundant.

Not permanently. So the issue here is one of efficiency? If V had blasted them to pieces, it's moral because Roy doesn't have to finish them off?

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Not permanently. So the issue here is one of efficiency? If V had blasted them to pieces, it's moral because Roy doesn't have to finish them off?

Grey Wolf

No, defending oneself against an opponent is moral until that opponent is no longer a danger, not furter.
When the goblins fell asleep they were no longer a danger so killing them was unnecessary harm (which is why I meant by redundant harm) therefore wrong. If Vaarsuvius had blasted them while they were awake that wouldn't be bad (well as bad, I don,'t want to go into the morality of violence and killing themselves here) because they'd be denfending themselves against lethal opponents.

I don,'t see what the "permanently" has to do with anything.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No, defending oneself against an opponent is moral until that opponent is no longer a danger, not furter.

And as long as they were alive, they were a danger, since they were aware that the Order was in the building.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

And as long as they were alive, they were a danger, since they were aware that the Order was in the building.

Grey Wolf

That ship had already sailed.

[woweedd]

And as long as they were alive, they were a danger, since they were aware that the Order was in the building.

Grey Wolf

So long as Belkar is alive, he is a danger, if not to Miko, then to random barbarians, fleeing goblins, and gnome spice merchants.

[Keltest]

That ship had already sailed.

I believe he means they will continue to try and track down the Order and pick a fight with them, or group up with more goblins and then wait for the Order to come to them.

[Fyraltari]

I believe he means they will continue to try and track down the Order and pick a fight with them, or group up with more goblins and then wait for the Order to come to them.

Why would they do that? How would they do that? It's not like any of them, except that Cleric that came later, had class levels or that it's particularly easy to track someone inside a building especially since the Order immediately went downstairs.