Newer to D&D - Archer Build Idea Optimization Help?

[Arsunick]

Hi everyone!

I'll start by saying that this is my second time playing D&D in the past 15 years and the other time was a quick campaign my buddy did for a week on roll20. Let's assume I know very little! I just started a campaign where I want to play an archer. I have read so many guides and discussions on "How to build an archer 5e" that my mind is bleeding so I decided some "live" responses might be best.

The build idea is Fighter 2/Rogue 3 Archery style. Past 5 I definitely have not decided what to do. I read that starting at 3 I can sneak attack opener, Action surge with a reaction and gain a sneak attack on another members turn? I am currently using a Longbow with a Light Xbow in my inventory. My race is Eladrin so no feat from level 1 for human variant. Any and all help efficiently building this Archer for great DPR is my goal. I have no idea whether building this way hurts my overall DPR, I knw it will take longer to get ASI's and useful feats. In that regard there are so many opinions on Xbow Mastery and Sharpshooter that I have no idea which to choose. My overall goal is to keep up high DPR without being the one trick pony that I've read so many guides turn out to be.

Thank you all for your help!

Level 2 Stats (if this helps to know for any reason):
Str: 8
Dex: 17
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 13

[Man_Over_Game]

Hi, noobie! Welcome to the club!

There's a few things I want to clarify before we continue, because it sounds like there's some hesitation on your post regarding how Action Surge and Reactions work.

At the start of each of your turns, you get these things:

Action (Used to Attack, Cast a Spell, or do complicated skill stuff)
Bonus Action (Used for special abilities. You cannot use this unless an ability says you can)
Reaction (Used for Opportunity Attacks or some special maneuvers, usually done out of your turn)
Movement (Can move between virtually any action or event during your turn).

One thing you can do with your Action is the Ready command, which means you choose to conserve your Action or remaining Movement for your turn to use later in the round, activated by a trigger of your choosing. Example: "When an enemy approaches me, I'll attack him". When your Ready command triggers, you spend your Reaction to do the Readied effect.

Action Surge provides you a second Action.

Combined, you can use one Action to attack and Ready your second Action for the turn, choosing to use it later.

This is important for the Rogue, because Sneak Attack is restricted to activating once per turn, but it can activate on turns that are not yours (like an ally's), which would let you Sneak Attack twice in the same round.



There's one small thing: Why? In the end, Sneak Attack does 1d6 + (1d6 X (Rogue Level/2)) in damage. That's 3.5 + 1.75 damage per Rogue level. This entire build will deal an extra 13 damage in the first round and not do much else beyond that. You have a solid first round, but what will you do after?

-----------------

With stats like that, you could definitely afford to be a Ranger with Sharpshooter. You'd have access to spells like Hunter's Mark (+1d6 damage per hit against a target for the next hour), you'd be able to adapt to threats with spells like Hail of Arrows or Entangling Strike. Going straight 5 levels into a Martial character (Rangers, Fighters, Monks, Barbarians, Paladins) rewards you with a second attack each turn, nearly doubling your consistent DPR. Most people, when choosing a primarily martial fighting style, opt to go straight to level 5 in the class they want the Extra Attack in before considering multiclassing for this very reason.

The Battlemaster Fighter also has a lot of merit for what you're looking to do. Almost all of the Battlemaster Maneuvers can be done at ranged combat (around 70% of them, last I checked), which means you'll have a lot of options to set up your teammates for some strategic situations.

[CTurbo]

Hi everyone!

I'll start by saying that this is my second time playing D&D in the past 15 years and the other time was a quick campaign my buddy did for a week on roll20. Let's assume I know very little! I just started a campaign where I want to play an archer. I have read so many guides and discussions on "How to build an archer 5e" that my mind is bleeding so I decided some "live" responses might be best.

The build idea is Fighter 2/Rogue 3 Archery style. Past 5 I definitely have not decided what to do. I read that starting at 3 I can sneak attack opener, Action surge with a reaction and gain a sneak attack on another members turn? I am currently using a Longbow with a Light Xbow in my inventory. My race is Eladrin so no feat from level 1 for human variant. Any and all help efficiently building this Archer for great DPR is my goal. I have no idea whether building this way hurts my overall DPR, I knw it will take longer to get ASI's and useful feats. In that regard there are so many opinions on Xbow Mastery and Sharpshooter that I have no idea which to choose. My overall goal is to keep up high DPR without being the one trick pony that I've read so many guides turn out to be.

Thank you all for your help!

Level 2 Stats (if this helps to know for any reason):
Str: 8
Dex: 17
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 13

Welcome!


Which Rogue subclass did you take?

I would consider two different directions with your build.

Option 1. Take 5 or 6 levels of Fighter and the rest in Rogue. 5 levels of Fighter gets you your second attack which is huge. The 6th level of Fighter is not as important but it does get you a bonus ASI/feat which could be big. As far as the order to do this? Well it's s toss up. I would either take 2 more levels of Rogue next to get the ASI/feat at Rogue 4, and then Cunning Action at Rogue 5, then take Fighter to 5 or 6, and finally going back to Rogue from then on out. Or go ahead and take the next 3 or 4 levels of Fighter now, and then finish Rogue. Either way is GOOD and bother offer different strengths and weaknesses.

Option 2. Take 5 levels of Ranger NOW, then finish Rogue. This option would not take anymore Fighter levels. You'd get your second attack from Ranger. Taking Ranger 5 would get you a second Fighting Style, which you could take Defense or a melee Fighting style if you wanted to be more well rounded, or maybe your DM will let you take Close Quarters Shooter which would make your Archery even better. Either Hunter or Gloom Stalker Ranger would be very strong for you as an Archer. If I knew which Rogue subclass you chose I could get more specific here, but either option is great.

Either way, I'd take more Rogue levels than anything else. I wouldn't take more than 5 levels of Ranger or 6 levels of Fighter, and if I took Ranger at all, I wouldn't take anymore Fighter levels.

As far as stat boosts vs feats? Personally I would bump Dex the next chance you get. Sharpshooter would be the first feat I took, then I'd probably go ahead and max Dex after that. After that, well it really depends on which Rogue subclass you choose and/or which Fighter/Ranger subclass you choose.

Mobile, Alert, and Lucky are all very strong for this type of character. Personally I do not like Crossbow Expert.

[Arsunick]

Hey guys sorry maybe I didnt clarify that I am currently level 2 Fighter already. Do you recommend taking it to 5 before taking levels of rogue then? Sticking with Longbow? pickup ASI at 4 or a feat? Im just kinda lost on what to do when I level up next at 3. Stick with fighter to 5 or dip into rogue now?

[CTurbo]

Do you want Ranger levels at all? If no, I'd go Battle Master Fighter 6, then Rogue from there. Bump Dex at 4 and take Sharpshooter at 6. I'd go Scout Rogue.

If you do want Ranger levels, I'd take the next 5 levels in Ranger now and not take anymore Fighter levels. Gloom Stalker has an awesome first round and gives improved darkvision. Hunter is more consistent across combat with both Horde Breaker and Colossus Slayer being great for Archers.

If you like the Fighter 2, Gloom Stalker 5 idea, consider Assassin Rogue for ultra great first rounds. I still prefer Scout Rogue but Arcane Trickster could be fun too.

Yes I would stick with Longbow. Definitely take Sharpshooter after bumping Dex and Definitely max Dex after that. Then Alert would be next choice if Assassin, and Mobile will be next choice if Scout.

[Arsunick]

From the guides that I had gone through it seemed like ranger was less useful than the Fighter BM/ Rogue Assassin combo? Though only dip into rogue for the 3 for assassin? I dont know much about scout as I dont think ive read a guide that recommends it? The most attacks per round for good constant DPR is my goal. We have a Healer, Tank, and utility Spell caster in the group so I want to be able to be relied upon for constant reliable damage if that makes sense!

[CTurbo]

I like a lot of Rogue levels for more Sneak Damage and Rogue gets great features at almost every level.

Yes having a lot of attacks is a great way to go. Fighter 11, Rogue 9 makes a very strong archer with 3 attacks per round.

Rangers do make great archers. Their damage is boosted by spells and Hunter and Gloom Stalker do have some great subclass features.

I don't think I would only take 3 Rogue levels. 5 levels is the least amount of Rogue I think I would take, and really 7 levels gets you Evasion which is awesome.

[Shadhael]

My most recent character is also of the archery variety. We are actually right where you are, level 5 with level 6 upon us very soon (start of next seasion actually). I'm just going to outline where I want to take my character and the thinking behind it. If anything resonates with you, great!

So I'm playing an air genasi, because I want some of the flavour of elemental affinity for launching projectiles through the air and being able to make the incredible shots. I put my first 5 levels into fighter, taking the archery fighting style and the battle master subclass. The FS is pretty self-explanatory. I went with the BM subclass because being able to control the battlefield is a valuable tool to have. I picked up precision strike (turn a borderline shot into a hit), parry (reduce damage taken if a melee closes on me), and trip (ups my damage and allows my melee party members an opportunity to attack with advantage if my target fails a STR saving throw). Picked up sharpshooter as a feat at level 4 because I was blessed with a good DEX stat so hitting enemies at level 5 still isn't too hard. Level 5 grants you extra attack to be able to attack twice on an action. Plus having access to Action Surge to finish off a wounded foe can be pretty clutch.

I'm now going to dip at least two levels into Rogue. Expertise and sneak attack for R1 is a great addition, and at R2 being able to disengage (if needed) or Hide (more sneak attack) as a bonus action greatly improves my action economy. For my level 8 I'm not sure yet whether to take a F6 and nab the Alert feat, or go R3 and get the Assassin subclass. Regardless, level 9 sees me as a F6/R3 with Assassinate and an Initiatve modifier of DEX MOD +5 (in my case a total of +9)

After that, I'm putting the rest of my levels into Fighter: Indomitable, Second Wind, Improved Action Surge, more maneuvers, and a third attack are all great. My party lacks a true tank (we're not all glass cannons, but we don't have raging Barbarian either), so having the extra little HP and recovery and chance to grab the Tough/Resiliant feats also come into play.

One of the things to consider though, is that you have a utility caster, who has hold person ready to go (I'm assuming, that's a staple for utility casters). If you reliably have a target held and are getting advantage (re: higher crit chance) thanks to your caster, putting more levels into Rogue and really spoiling someone's day with SA crit is an option too.

Anyway, that's what I'm doing with my character. I hope that this makes sense and that you have fun with yours!

[MThurston]

3rd level Fighter Arcane Archer
4th level Fighter Crossbow Expert, Heavy Crossbow does the best damage and let's you fire while standing 5 feet from a target.
5th Level Fighter Second attack.

Now it's a tough choice to make.

You can go rogue to get your sneak attack but at 6th level you get another feat and you will want Sharpshooter. You should have taking Archery as your fighting style. Sharpshooter makes an attack at -5 to get a +10 damage.

7th level would give give another Arcane shot. Also your arrows act like they are magic and if you miss on a attack roll, you can reroll a hit on a new target within 60 feet of the first.

8th level going fighter would give you another feat.

It's very hard not to want to continue fighter.

[Azgeroth]

for the love of all that is good, do NOT take arcane archer..

as the majority say, stick fighter to 5.

personally, i would then take 2 levels of rogue(total level 7)

then 1 more fighter (for fighter 6/ rogue 2) for the on schedule level 8 ASI.

then take the 3rd rogue.

why you ask?? simple. Sharp Shooter is a better DPR boost, than 1d6, on 1 attack.

a word on assassin, its whole shtick requires surprise, if you dont get surprise, it doesn't do anything, and honestly its going to be seriously hard to get surprise consistently..

alternatively, you could take thief (Fast Hands, and Long Jumps use acrobatics! yay!) AT gives you invisi-mage hand, and a couple of spells, (illusion and enchantment specifically, talk to your DM about the limits of those spells before you go reading about them YMMV) or even scout, for free expertise in survival + nature, and a reaction disengage move 15ft when attacked.

i think those 3 give the best options, though the others are also good, there really isnt a 'bad' rogue sub class, its all down to taste.

[MThurston]

There is nothing wrong with arcane archer.

It doesn't sit well with optimizers (PG).

Let me tell you how surprise works.

Your assassin waits 5 days for the perfect shot.

You assassin attacks and initiative is rolled.

You roll a 1 and your target rolls a 20.

Your target is not surprised and knows where you are.

[Crgaston]

Battlemaster is excellent. If you're worried about being a one trick pony, BM provides the most options. Plenty of good guides for that.

From your 2/3 split, I'd probably go Fighter to 6, Rogue to 5 for Uncanny Dodge, then decide if you want to be more rogueish or more fightery.

A lot of people will suggest stopping Fighter at 5 or 6 and then going Rouge for the SA, but if you're going to be relying on Sharpshooter, that 3rd attack will eventually give you more than the extra SA dice. Rogue will progress a little more smoothly, though.

Samurai is also a good archetype for an archer build, as Advantage is usually harder to get for ranged characters, and Samurai lets you grant it to yourself 3x/day (until L10, when its 1x/encounter). Use it when you Action Surge.

Samurai also gets you Wis save proficiency at level 7, which saves you a Feat. You want proficiency in Wis saves. It also gets you +Wis on your Persuasion and an extra skill.

With your 17 Dex, you're a good candidate for Elven Accuracy to increase your reliability and crit chance, so there's some synergy there.

You could also use an ASI to put +1s in Dex/Cha and take Swashbuckler for your Rogue archetype. This would give you +2 to Initiative and also gives you half the Mobile feat, which would also give you the most when it comes time to melee.

[Arsunick]

Ok so it looks like it is definitely a better idea to run fighter up to 5 before picking up rogue. After digging into more information on Arcane Archer, Battle Master, and Samurai (which all look like a lot of fun) I think I will stick with BM and pickup SS at 4. I really like where you guys have taken this build!

Now with that I am down to figuring out how I want to build rogue. Should I build him so that I can use bonus actions to hide? Will this interfere with a Fighter Archer? Im not sure if they get any bonus action skills or not, but to my knowledge they dont so I think this will synchronize really well? Also Precision attack can help to land those attacks will the -5 that SS gives. It feels like it all fits really well.

Any more detailed advice on the Rogue portion is always Super welcome. I'm pretty sure I understand the stealth function. If my target cannot see me then I have advantage on my attack roll? So the more often that I can attack from long range(out of sight)/stealth the better chance I have to hit. Sneak Attack only applies once for me, but i can set a reaction attack (like with action surge) to attack on anothers turn to proc sneak attack. Assassin seems strong IFF I can actually make the cunning action hide bonus action every round.

Rogue does seem to have some really interesting other subclasses though. My issue is I havent found a guide that takes an OBJECTIVE look at all rogue subclasses and gives a straight opinion on exactly how it functions and how you make it work for you. Every guide makes it seem like each one is better than another and thats hard to dig through. Again thanks for the help guys, I am having more fun building and playing this Archer than I ever did as a caster.

PS> One thing i should definitely mention is that I am going to be acting as the groups "rogue" with lockpicking thieves tools etc in the future (though if my dwarf cleric companion keeps rolling 20s on dex checks i may just give up!) so the rogue archetype is super important not just for bonus sneak attack damage. Our DM is running what he plans on being a 50% combat 50% RP compaign that he wrote himself. So having some skills outside of pure DPR is essential I imagine. Our Sorc is our face. You guys are awesome, thanks for the help.

[Man_Over_Game]

I can confirm that Battlemaster 5 and Rogue 15 is a really solid, fun sharpshooter with a lot of versatility. You can even do melee combat in a pinch, since Dexterity covers your AC and melee combat needs. For Rogue archetypes, I'd recommend the Inquisitive. Not only does it mesh well with the rogue in charge of disarming traps, it also allows you to sneak attack at long range since its Sneak Attack benefit has no range requirement. It's practically designed for snipers.

For a more combat approach, I recommend the Scout. It's designed to skirmish the enemy fluidly in combat, and combined with Crossbow Expert, you'll be extremely hard to pin down as you snipe their back line. The Scout is strictly a combat focus, though, and will rely on teammates (preferably melee ones) to set up Sneak Attacks.

[djreynolds]

Battlemaster is your base at least 7 to 8 levels.

War cleric even for 2 levels id worth it, do not dump wisdom. A 16 (after resilient wisdom) is 3 BA with a longbow a day. Grab bless or divine favor (as good as hunter's mark).

Rogue, up to you, 5 levels is nice for uncanny dodge.

There you go.

I personally would begin as fighter, con saves are big IMO, and you have nothing to concentrate on... hence bless. And I like wood elf.

Fighter/ rogue/ war cleric/ fighter/ fighter/fighter/ fighter/ rogue/ etc...

[Shadhael]

Any more detailed advice on the Rogue portion is always Super welcome. I'm pretty sure I understand the stealth function. If my target cannot see me then I have advantage on my attack roll? So the more often that I can attack from long range(out of sight)/stealth the better chance I have to hit. Sneak Attack only applies once for me, but i can set a reaction attack (like with action surge) to attack on anothers turn to proc sneak attack. Assassin seems strong IFF I can actually make the cunning action hide bonus action every round.

Rogue does seem to have some really interesting other subclasses though. My issue is I havent found a guide that takes an OBJECTIVE look at all rogue subclasses and gives a straight opinion on exactly how it functions and how you make it work for you. Every guide makes it seem like each one is better than another and thats hard to dig through. Again thanks for the help guys, I am having more fun building and playing this Archer than I ever did as a caster.

PS> One thing i should definitely mention is that I am going to be acting as the groups "rogue" with lockpicking thieves tools etc in the future (though if my dwarf cleric companion keeps rolling 20s on dex checks i may just give up!) so the rogue archetype is super important not just for bonus sneak attack damage. Our DM is running what he plans on being a 50% combat 50% RP compaign that he wrote himself. So having some skills outside of pure DPR is essential I imagine. Our Sorc is our face. You guys are awesome, thanks for the help.

Glad to see you're having fun with it!

I would generally advise that you don't use Action Surge to ready a single attack that procs Sneak Attack on someone else's turn. Obviously this isn't a blanket rule, it is D&D after all. As a Rogue you can 100% use your Bonus Action to Hide every round. Assassinate though only applies on the very first round of combat though, and even then they have to be surprised by you or even your whole party depending on how your DM decides surprised works. And once you're into the second round, everyone should have taken a turn so the level 3 feature won't apply. I'm actually going to switch my character's Rogue sub-class to Scout instead of Assassin, I totally overlooked it, and it makes so much more sense for my character.

Since you say the campaign is 50/50 combat/RP, putting more levels into Rogue make a lot of sense. Uncanny Dodge (R5) and Evasion (R7) work really well in combat, don't need to tank the hits as a Fighter if they can't hit you properly. Reliable Talent (R11), and I can't stress this enough, two additional expertise skills at R6 are phenomenal for skill checks. Having (for example) Stealth, Perception, Investigation, and Thieves Tools all using double your proficiency bonus (at F5/R6 that's a prof of +4) means very little will see or get by you. And if at any point you're levelling up you feel that you need a feat or ASI, you can always dip into F6. It would cost you Slippery Mind at R15, assuming you get that far, but that can be made up by taking the Resilient (Wisdom) feat granting you the same proficiency with the saving throw, but also bump your WIS stat by 1. That's also a long way off, and as much as it can be nice to have a plan mapped out, don't be afraid to detour and play the character how you want to in the present, and not how you mapped it out months ago.

As for your Rogue sub-class options, I'm with Man_Over_Game that Inquisitive or Scout would serve you well depending on how skilled vs. martial/mobile you want to be.

Happy playing!

[Crgaston]

I can confirm that Battlemaster 5 and Rogue 15 is a really solid, fun sharpshooter with a lot of versatility. You can even do melee combat in a pinch, since Dexterity covers your AC and melee combat needs. For Rogue archetypes, I'd recommend the Inquisitive. Not only does it mesh well with the rogue in charge of disarming traps, it also allows you to sneak attack at long range since its Sneak Attack benefit has no range requirement. It's practically designed for snipers.

For a more combat approach, I recommend the Scout. It's designed to skirmish the enemy fluidly in combat, and combined with Crossbow Expert, you'll be extremely hard to pin down as you snipe their back line. The Scout is strictly a combat focus, though, and will rely on teammates (preferably melee ones) to set up Sneak Attacks.

Inquisitive is excellent on an archer, as pointed out by M_o_G and others above, precisely because you can get SA damage reliably at range, especially if you put one of your Expertises in Insight.

Alternately, Mastermind lets you toss out Advantage to your friends on targets within 30' of you at the expense of you bonus action. No other roll required. And it always feels good giving your buddies Advantage,

Scout I would take more for the extra Expertise in Survival and Nature and the 9th/13th level abilities rather than the Skirmisher feature. Once you hit Rogue 5, Skirmisher is less likely to be useful.

For example:
Enemy ends its movement (Skirmisher procs at the end of an enemy's TURN, not move) next to you and attacks. if it hits, you're probably going to want to spend your Reaction on Uncanny Dodge to reduce the damage, given that you can still Cunning Action Disengage on your turn, rather than take full damage and use your reaction for Skirmisher. While it is true that you would then have your Bonus Action to Hide, etc., let's look at Swashbuckler instead...

Enemy ends its movement next to you. If it hits, you're probably going to want to spend your Reaction on Uncanny Dodge to reduce the damage, given that you can still Cunning Action Disengage on your turn.

But wait... you can instead just draw a dagger and stab them so Rakish Audacity kicks in and they don't get an OA when you move anyway, so you will still have your Bonus Action to use Cunning Action to Hide so you can get Advantage on your 2nd attack. Plus you get +Cha to initiative.

Really it comes down to what you want for fluff. Pretty much all the Rogue in-combat options are strong if you play to their strengths.

For your out-of combat abilities...

Scout will let you be a pseudo-Ranger.

Inquisitive makes you Sherlock Holmes.

Mastermind is a fantastic spy, and (drifting back to in-combat) lets you operate as something of a squad leader by deciding which enemy it'd be best for others to attack and giving your party incentive (Advantage) to do so.

Swashbuckler is the best at switching between ranged and melee, Arcane Trickster has spells and all the associated shenanigans, and Thief gives you a climb speed so you can shimmy up a tree or wall and rain death from above. Furthermore, a Thief with the Healer feat and plenty of healer's kits is in the running for having the best in-combat healing in the game.

This thread makes me want to do a Fighter/Rogue guide comparing all the archetype combinations. So much goodness.

[Arsunick]

Wow guys this is great information. I love the examples you gave especially in the specific rogue archetypes and how they can be used. Ive got a few more sessions before I have to decide on it and I have to say you all have definitely helped me find a good way to round out my character in combat and out of it.