Building an evil town

[rlc]

So I've been really interested in the Vasharan from the Book of Vile Darkness lately, so I'm thinking of how their city/town/village would look.
Obviously, it would be in the middle of nowhere and there would be tons of slaves, but what might the population be? 50% slaves? More? Are women equal to men?
I know that there's a democratically elected council that governs them, but is it like an Athens style democracy? What kinds of laws are there?
Is this already detailed in an adventure somewhere?

[noob]

Maybe it would like a normal town but it is under the effect of a permanent animate city and also under the effect of awaken construct and with the evil alignment?

[falcon1]

Well, a lot of this depends on what sort of evil you are looking for. It could look very normal, but everyone is secretly a murdering madman. It could be a wretched place where petty bullies rule hovels filled with starving paupers who will kill you for the fun of it. It could be a prosperous place, with nightly festivals full of all manner of depravities and supported by slaves. Or it could be something completely different.

[rlc]

Well, a lot of this depends on what sort of evil you are looking for. It could look very normal, but everyone is secretly a murdering madman. It could be a wretched place where petty bullies rule hovels filled with starving paupers who will kill you for the fun of it. It could be a prosperous place, with nightly festivals full of all manner of depravities and supported by slaves. Or it could be something completely different.

Most likely something like this. Most sources tell of their beginning story, and there's some information on some of their magic items and their government. They don't trust that any one person would rule them correctly, and it works surprisingly well for them, even though everything I can find about them says that they don't care about avoiding taboos and are kind of evil. They apparently don't need much from the outside world, other than slaves.
So I'm thinking it could be kind of like a fantasy version of Sodom and Gomorrah, but dialing it up a bit and adding something similar to Mardi Gras might not be a bad idea.

[rlc]

A little more background information:
The Vasharan are a race of proto-humans who swore to kill the gods because reasons, and they either ran and hid on a plateau, or were brought there by a demon.
They don't worship gods, so there isn't likely to be any blood sacrifices, but ur-priests are a possibility and fit perfectly.
There's also the democracy that I mentioned earlier, but it's probably relatively hands off, but they have to do something. Maybe they're just a group of elected chiefs?

[Grim Portent]

Been a while since I read about them but as I recall the main goal of Vasharan society is to ultimately kill the gods, their main allies being demons and their mythical progenitors being the first human and a succubus.

I imagine a democracy of theirs would be ruled by those seen as the most capable of advancing the goals of deicide and the propagation of Vasharan society, presumably a mix of powerful profane champions and scholars who research the nature of the divine. Presumably they have to respect the rules and goals defined by their leaders but still act with disregard for one another's dignity, property and safety except where personally endangered.

I imagine there'd be a strong amount of oversight with government officials keeping an eye on all industries and activities deemed vital to the continuation of Vasharan society and the goal of god killing, but little oversight elsewhere, and little to no actual laws protecting individuals unless they're of too high a value to allow them to be harmed.

Powerful and important people would be more or less at liberty to do whatever they wanted to those less important than them, but equally the unimportant could do as they wished to one another. Given the natural impulses of Vasharan that's generally going to be unpleasant. I imagine they'd form lots of gangs for mutual protection from each other, but betrayal would be rife and paranoia a daily constant except when working on vital tasks like farming or building communal works.

EDIT: Looked up some of their official fluff to refresh myself a bit. It sounds almost like the writers wanted their cities to look like some kind of patriarchal democracy ruled by a council of elders or something and coated in blood. The main issue I see is that they only breed through rape, the idea of consensual sex apparently never occurs to them because it requires caring and compassion (which is phenomenally stupid even for the BoVD) and how that would work in a society that's supposed to be democratic is beyond me, especially since they aren't called out as having one gender more empowered than the other and such a system is massively one sided and would be horrifically unstable.

I could almost see them as a weird insane parody of something like ancient Athens, but I really think they need a lot of tweaking to make any kind of sense.

Other issues: No issue with blood and gore, so they're likely to leave it lying without cleaning it up, spreading disease. Tolerate rats, snakes and other things with no issue, which means more disease and random snake bites for the careless and the lack of an incest taboo so inbreeding will become an issue.

Also they apparently treat other races much as normal humans do, and are basically neutral as it concerns them, so that must mean most of their evil is perpetrated on each other... but how does that work if their society is meant to be orderly?

[rlc]

Yeah, it's kind of confusing and everything on the surface seems to contradict each other, but that's probably why it's so interesting.
It would obviously be a lot of mature content that probably wouldn't even be that important to practical adventuring, other than to make you want to kill them all, but that doesn't mean that you can't still build the world.
Maybe all/most females are slaves, and there are massive orgies, on top of whatever other vices happen. Maybe the men play games of chance and the currency is women.
Maybe this thread needs an 18+ disclaimer added to it.

[White Blade]

Since Vasharan are elemental sociopaths, I feel like a genuine meritocracy seems like the most likely system. They have no affection for one another, so nepotism and inheritances are likely non-existent. Bribery, which would require money, might be possible, but it seems likely that the money wouldn’t flow down that much. And in a D&D setting, merit produces genuine power that it doesn’t in our world.

Of course, the meritocratic system provides the promise that you (yourself) might some day be one of the elite. And you would need to provide sufficiently pleasant baseline circumstances that other Vasharan didn’t slit your throat in the night.

The sexuality being based in rape seems weird, but I suppose you could just eliminate the concept of consent altogether. Sexuality is expressed through dominance by both genders. Obviously, the state would provide richly for the care and production of Vasharan children, since no individual Vasharan wants to tank the economic blow of social reproduction. Individual mothers would likely be compensated for bearing children. Then children would be raised Spartan barracks style, taught the ways of hating the gods and Vasharan superiority.

[rlc]

Since Vasharan are elemental sociopaths, I feel like a genuine meritocracy seems like the most likely system. They have no affection for one another, so nepotism and inheritances are likely non-existent. Bribery, which would require money, might be possible, but it seems likely that the money wouldn’t flow down that much. And in a D&D setting, merit produces genuine power that it doesn’t in our world.

Of course, the meritocratic system provides the promise that you (yourself) might some day be one of the elite. And you would need to provide sufficiently pleasant baseline circumstances that other Vasharan didn’t slit your throat in the night.

The sexuality being based in rape seems weird, but I suppose you could just eliminate the concept of consent altogether. Sexuality is expressed through dominance by both genders. Obviously, the state would provide richly for the care and production of Vasharan children, since no individual Vasharan wants to tank the economic blow of social reproduction. Individual mothers would likely be compensated for bearing children. Then children would be raised Spartan barracks style, taught the ways of hating the gods and Vasharan superiority.

Some interesting points. Honestly, the fluff seems to say that they're bad because they do bad things, but then also says that they just don't understand why these things are bad, and then also says that they aren't mean or anything, other than specifically x, y, and z. There's a lot of, "well...they're okay, but did you hear about this?!"
After doing a lot of thinking, I even added to my own description of them that part of the fear surrounding them is probably just a misunderstanding. Yeah, they do things differently than we do, but that's because they have a different frame of reference, kind of like how the Spaniards thought that the Aztecs were demon worshippers because of the blood sacrifices. Maybe the truth is that they're not really terrible people and don't even have no concept of taboos, but their culture is just so completely different that they don't have the same taboos. Maybe the Evil McEvilface vasharan are just the ones who are the best known outside of their little area.
But, more to your point, I actually kind of like the idea of them having a weird form of meritocratic communism. If they don't have any property, they don't need inheritances. If political leaders are more of a proxy than anything else, that could explain why they need so few laws.

[White Blade]

Some interesting points. Honestly, the fluff seems to say that they're bad because they do bad things, but then also says that they just don't understand why these things are bad, and then also says that they aren't mean or anything, other than specifically x, y, and z. There's a lot of, "well...they're okay, but did you hear about this?!"
....
But, more to your point, I actually kind of like the idea of them having a weird form of meritocratic communism. If they don't have any property, they don't need inheritances. If political leaders are more of a proxy than anything else, that could explain why they need so few laws.

The real problem for the Vasharan is that they aren’t able to operate in good faith with one another. They’re united by a genetic cause, the destruction of the gods, which is clearly a long-term project and compels them to form societies, but it is only towards this goal that they’re able to act in good faith. So most of what would be considered private property is probably owned by the state, yeah, though I hadn’t thought of that as a necessary implication. Status would then be based on how many people you were over and the reward of status would be the ability to exert power over others. When you died, your personal property would be auctioned or potlached away since you have no heirs. And you’re probably not susceptible to flattery from other Vasharan, because you know what sort of people they are. Punishment for what crimes do exist would be very severe.

The Vasharan would need a LOT of slaves to survive as a society - Being a peasant in medieval tech probably wouldn’t be acceptable to a Vasharan. Although you could have them living in isolated anti-divine monasteries of arcane and Ur-priest magic, where the provision of food is provided by magic.

I suppose I’d probably say 90% slave, 5% freeman, 4% officer of some sort, and then a ruling council of some sort at about 1% in a standard D&D setting. Though the idea of the Vasharan as El Dorado underwritten by black magic is also sorta cool.

[rlc]

The Vasharan would need a LOT of slaves to survive as a society - Being a peasant in medieval tech probably wouldn’t be acceptable to a Vasharan. Although you could have them living in isolated anti-divine monasteries of arcane and Ur-priest magic, where the provision of food is provided by magic.

The monastery honestly hadn't occurred to me, and would explain a lot of things. I was thinking in terms of w% slaves, x% slavers, y% wizards, and z% ur-priests, but this would also make sense. Maybe all adult male Vasharans are wizards and Ur-priests, and the capturing slaves thing is a rite of passage.
If it's all magically supported with food and drink, then maybe the slaves are just killed or used for experiments if they're male, and used for reproduction and child rearing if they're female.
Most of the really crazy stuff would then just be explained by rumors and legends getting out of control.

ETA: for a 3rd level spell slot, you can feed 15 people, every day. Even ignoring casting it multiple times per spellcaster, that's 100 castings to feed 1500 people. That's not that hard, especially if you don't really have to worry about combat very often and you're pretty much a society of magic users.

[Flumphburger]

As I recall, the only thing the damned book ever established about them, aside from them living on a mesa and being nonspecifically evil, is that they eat worms.

Like, when it says they'll do anything if they see a benefit, the example given was "eating live worms." There was a magic item of theirs that had something to do with eating worms, or spitting worms out, or something like that. I believe also a worm related spell was supposed to have been invented by them, though I may be mixing that one up. Anyway, worms going in their mouths was mentioned way too much for it to just be a random example.

So, I say give them a rich culinary tradition that makes extensive use of mealworms and moth larvae, frying, breading, or sauteing them with a vast range of spices and condiments to create a hearty and flavorful feast from the cheapest and most environmentally sustainable of meats, the mouth-watering fumes often wafting down from their mesa home to the human and halfling villages of the countryside below.

But they won't let you have any. Because they're evil.

[White Blade]

The monastery honestly hadn't occurred to me, and would explain a lot of things. I was thinking in terms of w% slaves, x% slavers, y% wizards, and z% ur-priests, but this would also make sense. Maybe all adult male Vasharans are wizards and Ur-priests, and the capturing slaves thing is a rite of passage.
If it's all magically supported with food and drink, then maybe the slaves are just killed or used for experiments if they're male, and used for reproduction and child rearing if they're female.
Most of the really crazy stuff would then just be explained by rumors and legends getting out of control.

ETA: for a 3rd level spell slot, you can feed 15 people, every day. Even ignoring casting it multiple times per spellcaster, that's 100 castings to feed 1500 people. That's not that hard, especially if you don't really have to worry about combat very often and you're pretty much a society of magic users.

Unless the Vasharan always breed true, the one thing they absolutely cannot allow is to use female slaves as a reproductive stock. Any non-Vasharan sociopath would be incredibly acidic for the deicidal project and I’m not sure how you would draw a distinction from them. I’m still not sure why the Vasharan males would rise to prominence over their women - Vasharan women are just as capable of magic as men, and magic is the center of their society. The pleasure of dominance wouldn’t be exclusive to the men. And, of course, Vasharan women wouldn’t be motivated not to slit Vasharan males throats at will. Or to induce abortions if they’re impregnated and they don’t have a personal stake in the baby.

As to slaves, they wouldn’t be for necessary labor at the wicked monastery - They would be toys. Gladiatorial fights, torture subjects, and sacrifices to fiends. Household servants and bed slaves.

[rlc]

Unless the Vasharan always breed true, the one thing they absolutely cannot allow is to use female slaves as a reproductive stock. Any non-Vasharan sociopath would be incredibly acidic for the deicidal project and I’m not sure how you would draw a distinction from them. I’m still not sure why the Vasharan males would rise to prominence over their women - Vasharan women are just as capable of magic as men, and magic is the center of their society. The pleasure of dominance wouldn’t be exclusive to the men. And, of course, Vasharan women wouldn’t be motivated not to slit Vasharan males throats at will. Or to induce abortions if they’re impregnated and they don’t have a personal stake in the baby.

As to slaves, they wouldn’t be for necessary labor at the wicked monastery - They would be toys. Gladiatorial fights, torture subjects, and sacrifices to fiends. Household servants and bed slaves.

That's pretty much just me trying to wrap my head around the part about only being born from rape. Vasharan are really just a subrace of humans, so they wouldn't breed true, but they also probably wouldn't need to be.
If none of them any concept of consent, then I don't really know if you can consider it rape, kind of like animals. It's really just that so many things seem to contradict each other.
Maybe Vasharan-human half breeds could be mule-like? I don't know, it might just be easier to have people just conditioned to accept the Vasharan way of life, like Stockholm syndrome.

[White Blade]

That's pretty much just me trying to wrap my head around the part about only being born from rape. Vasharan are really just a subrace of humans, so they wouldn't breed true, but they also probably wouldn't need to be.
If none of them any concept of consent, then I don't really know if you can consider it rape, kind of like animals. It's really just that so many things seem to contradict each other.
Maybe Vasharan-human half breeds could be mule-like? I don't know, it might just be easier to have people just conditioned to accept the Vasharan way of life, like Stockholm syndrome.

Well, two separate arguments here. I would say, first of all, that it is perfectly possible to imagine that the Vasharans simply don't enjoy sex - Full stop. The sex act may, for Vasharans, be completely devoid of pleasure. If that's the case, then it would be unlikely for them to engage in mutual sex gratification. Vasharans would have sex to humiliate or discomfort their victim, which would be pleasant for them (because they enjoy watching others suffer) but not for their victim. Vasharans would not tolerate this sort of behavior from each other, ordinarily, but remember that the pathological hatred of the gods is the only thing holding this society together at all. So what would be Vasharan law is that superiors (as in your bosses, not other members of the ruling classes) could use sex as a disciplinary tool. Vasharan law is enshrined such as to encourage child birth, pregnancy would be encouraged and rewarded with some material reward (magic items? promotions?), at least enough to offset the inconvenience and danger of childbearing. And since a Vasharan child is automatically useful to the deicidal project, mothers would be able to suppress their instinct to destroy the children out of hand. And, of course, magic would be used to accelerate pregnancy and alleviate dangers as much as possible.

All of that would be very much non-consensual and very much rape, but you would have it be part of the great wheel of the Vasharan society. Of course, the Vasharan wouldn't go around saying, "Why yes, I raped a subordinate today" but that's just because the concept of engaging in sex without intending to harm and humiliate the subordinate member would simply not exist for Vasharans. If you described consensual sex to them, they would give that a separate word, for that weird thing that the aliens do where they voluntary submit to sexual humiliation out of that madness they call affection.

Totally separately from that, a Vasharan-raised-human lacks one of two things (probably, on balance, both): Sociopathy or deicidal hatred. Non-sociopaths are just a much better, more adaptive form of organization for rational animals - Eusocial dominance has been proven over and over again in the natural world. So a cabal of non-sociopaths could form, because they would form affection for one another, and then they would engage in nepotism (which the Vasharan system is entirely predicated on not-existing) and favoritism, promoting themselves through the ranks. Soon enough, they'd be killing off the Vasharans and that would be it for the Vasharans.

If a sociopath ISN'T interested in the deicidal project, by contrast, there are no doubt many evil gods interested in offering them a leg up to plant a knife six inches deep into these deicidal maniacs' hearts. Even without that, again, the whole society is predicated on the deicidal project. Why would a sociopath act in good faith towards the deicidal project? They can LIE about things related to the project and not just in keeping the populace optimistic about success (in spite of the immense concrete obstacles), which would undermine the good faith necessary for this society to work. If you can't be sure if a Vasharan was really interested in the project, why tolerate them at all?