Why did Greg kill Zz'dtri rather than turning him into a vampire?

[Lacuna Caster]

No, I actually left out a 'not' there. My mistake.

Wait, what am I saying? No, I was giving a reason why Durkula would kill Z. (e.g, regardless of strategic value, he was in a rush and acted impulsively.)

It seems like he only trusts other cleric vampires made by Hel, though, since he only vamps other clerics.

Are you sure? Was there anybody at the Godsmoot that he specifically refrained from vampirising over not being a cleric?

[Dion]

It seems like he only trusts other cleric vampires made by Hel, though, since he only vamps other clerics.

But then why didn’t he vampirize Elan!?!

I believe Hel and Banjo could have worked out a deal that involved Banjo’s unique quiddity.

Plot hole! Plot hole!

[Fyraltari]

With the element of surprise, he could probably kill the entire Order in their sleep, and teleportation gives him extra time to raise a vampire horde without any chance of interference by Roy & Co. Heck, if he really needed the airship, in principle he could just vampirise the entire crew of the Mechane.

And then he would have no way of getting inside firmament discreetly. I don't think the dwarves would have missed a big honking airship trying to land on their doorway.

[Jasdoif]

With the element of surprise, he could probably kill the entire Order in their sleep, and teleportation gives him extra time to raise a vampire horde without any chance of interference by Roy & Co. Heck, if he really needed the airship, in principle he could just vampirise the entire crew of the Mechane.

It's true. HPoH could have been an amateur planner, assumed he knows absolutely everything that could possibly happen ever, decided that his plan that was already working could in no way be harmed by destroying the legion of circumstances that made it work; and risk screwing everything up for no real benefit.

[Peelee]

Wait, what am I saying? No, I was giving a reason why Durkula would kill Z. (e.g, regardless of strategic value, he was in a rush and acted impulsively.)


Are you sure? Was there anybody at the Godsmoot that he specifically refrained from vampirising over not being a cleric?

Roy and Belkar.

[Lacuna Caster]

And then he would have no way of getting inside firmament discreetly. I don't think the dwarves would have missed a big honking airship trying to land on their doorway.

But he's legitimately the High Priest of Hel, and it's not like the Godsmoot is turning away all the evil clerics, regardless of what they might have done outside the moot. He doesn't need to sneak in, he just needs to get there.

It's true. HPoH could have been an amateur planner, assumed he knows absolutely everything that could possibly happen ever, decided that his plan that was already working could in no way be harmed by destroying the legion of circumstances that made it work; and risk screwing everything up for no real benefit.

I dunno. Having 5 other veteran adventurers and an airship directly under your thrall seems like a non-trivial benefit, particularly if they might try fighting you during or after the Godsmoot.

Roy and Belkar.

I don't recall he got the chance to finish with Roy, and in any case, this only raises the question of 'why not'?

[Peelee]

I don't recall he got the chance to finish with Roy, and in any case

He had plenty of time before the Hel reveal, as did his minions. Surprise is a huge advantage.

this only raises the question of 'why not'?

..... seriously?

It seems like he only trusts other cleric vampires made by Hel, though, since he only vamps other clerics.

[Dion]

And then he would have no way of getting inside firmament discreetly. I don't think the dwarves would have missed a big honking airship trying to land on their doorway.

To be fair, TOotS pretty did basically fly a big honkin airship up to the side door. I don’t think the dwarves would have stopped him.

[Fyraltari]

But he's legitimately the High Priest of Hel, and it's not like the Godsmoot is turning away all the evil clerics, regardless of what they might have done outside the moot. He doesn't need to sneak in, he just needs to get there.

Yes? I'm not talking about that. Firmament is the city the Council of clan Elders is meeting in. It's inside a mountain. Thay aren't many ways to get inside those.

EDIT:

To be fair, TOotS pretty did basically fly a big honkin airship up to the side door. I don’t think the dwarves would have stopped him.

The side door he doesn't know exist and can only be opened with a stone he doesn't possess would definitely stop him.

The Dwarves presumably have defenses at the regular entry points of their subterranean realm. Granted I don't know they can stop a vampire but I don't know they can't either and the teleport orb is still a much better way to get there on time and stealthily.

[Lacuna Caster]

He had plenty of time before the Hel reveal, as did his minions. Surprise is a huge advantage.

..... seriously?

It may have occurred to you, Peelee, that I don't find this explanation sufficiently convincing. Pointing out 'he could easily have vampirised the crew with the element of surprise' is kind of a part of my argument.

Yes? I'm not talking about that. Firmament is the city the Council of clan Elders is meeting in. It's inside a mountain. Thay aren't many ways to get inside those.

Yes, but I'm talking about some hypothetical scenario where Durkula seized V's teleport orb or just took over the airship by killing/vampirising the crew and/or OOTS.

[Jasdoif]

I dunno. Having 5 other veteran adventurers and an airship directly under your thrall seems like a non-trivial benefit, particularly if they might try fighting you during or after the Godsmoot.

And getting destroyed before you ever look at your destination, because you didn't know not to underestimate the high level veteran adventurers, is the kind of thing that amateurs do. The classic greed pattern of betting everything after you already have exactly what you came for, and losing it all.

Hermod reneging on his agreement with Hel (something HPoH had no way of knowing or influencing) is the only reason the world wasn't ended right then and there, in which case the adventurers and airship are superfluous; and taking the teleport orb after didn't even pose a problem since Vaarsuvius wasn't there.

[Peelee]

It may have occurred to you, Peelee, that I don't find this explanation sufficiently convincing.

It also occurred to me to not try circular reasoning. If I introduce a hypothesis for why a character did X, then asking "but why?" is... I don't even know how to describe a question that ridiculous.

Take an example:

Why did Bob kill Steve?
"Maybe Bob wanted to silence Steve."
OK, but if there was stuff Steve knew that Bob didn't want to come out, then why did Bob kill Steve?

You're not poking any holes in the hypothesis, you're just walking in a circle as quickly as possible.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, but I'm talking about some hypothetical scenario where Durkula seized V's teleport orb or just took over the airship by killing/vampirising the crew and/or OOTS.

Okay let's rewind thing a bit here:

Durkon* along with Roy just learned from Veldrina and Wrecan that V got their hand on a teleport orb which could get Durkon* everywwhere should he steal it.
Meanwhile Roy just secured a way for him to get to the Moot on time.

Durkon* knows he needs a way to get to Firmament if, like he hopes, the vote is still tied when Dvalin votes.

Now he has three options:

The first is the one seen in the comic: keep playing the perfect teammate and go to the moot with the order and once there steal the orb if he finds a Cleric to vamp to stand in his stead in case of a tie so that he can go to Firmament and rig that vote. That plan is guaranteed to bring him to the moot (and thus fullfill his part of plan A) and while there is a chance the theft is discovered, his treachery is going to revealed anyway.

The second one is to steal the orb and teleport right away. Then he will be safely at the Moot but he will have no way to reach Firmament if plan B is needed.

The third one is to try to take over the Mechane (can he even keep enough thralls under his control to steer the ship?), now this will be tricky since only three people onboard (Roy, Haley and Elan) trust him while one (Belkar) is actively out to prove his disloyalty, and the other don't trust him but aren't convince of foul play either (the crew particularly is unconfortable with having a vampire onboard). Shoud he manage to take over the ship he could ue it to reach the moot and if he can vamp a Cleric there, he is in a position to carry plan B. But should he fail and both plan A and B fail.

The first option is the better one, in my opinion.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Heck, if he really needed the airship, in principle he could just vampirise the entire crew of the Mechane.

Vampires cannot crew the Mechane - there is no shade. They were in a hurry and couldn't travel only at night.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Vampires cannot crew the Mechane - there is no shade. They were in a hurry and couldn't travel only at night.

Grey Wolf

How do charges in a staff work exactly? Do you have to know the spell to recharge a spell that's already in the staff? Does it recharge on its own after a day?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How do charges in a staff work exactly? Do you have to know the spell to recharge a spell that's already in the staff? Does it recharge on its own after a day?

Depends on the staff. Most cannot be recharged, and those that can involve rather arcane rituals - like leaving it under a full moon and the like - and are extremely rare. More likely, Malack just made a new one when the current one is running out, and Greg wouldn't have the time or knowledge to do that himself (you need to know the spells to craft the staff, IIRC).

There is also a hard limit to number of charges - 50, I think? It's been theorised that the staff was probably close to empty by the end.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

And getting destroyed before you ever look at your destination, because you didn't know not to underestimate the high level veteran adventurers, is the kind of thing that amateurs do.

Yeah, they're high-level veterans, but Durkula is a ~level-15 tier-1 full caster with the added benefit of tanking ability, which means that really only Roy has a respectable chance of beating him, assuming they even wake up first. And if he just takes over the ship he doesn't have to take on the risk and complication of trying to manipulate Roy into heading for the moot without actually saying that's what he wants- he can just order !Bandana to set course. It's not a foolproof plan, sure, but neither were the alternatives.

Why did Bob kill Steve?
"Maybe Bob wanted to silence Steve."
OK, but if there was stuff Steve knew that Bob didn't want to come out, then why did Bob kill Steve?

No, this is "Bob had good reason to kill Steve, so how come he didn't?" vs. "The fact he didn't indicates he must not have had good reason." You're not presenting any actual independent evidence that Greg would lack control over non-clerics.

[Lacuna Caster]

Okay let's rewind thing a bit here:

Durkon* along with Roy just learned from Veldrina and Wrecan that V got their hand on a teleport orb which could get Durkon* everywhere should he steal it.

From the point where he finds out V has the orb, yeah, that's a plausible line of argument. But he could have taken over the ship at more-or-less any time.

Vampires cannot crew the Mechane - there is no shade. They were in a hurry and couldn't travel only at night.

...Ah. That actually makes sense.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, they're high-level veterans, but Durkula is a ~level-15 tier-1 full caster with the added benefit of tanking ability, which means that really only Roy has a respectable chance of beating him, assuming they even wake up first. And if he just takes over the ship he doesn't have to take on the risk and complication of trying to manipulate Roy into heading for the moot without actually saying that's what he wants- he can just order !Bandana to set course. It's not a foolproof plan, sure, but neither were the alternatives.

But he had no reason to try it as long as the Mechane was headed in the right direction. If in Tinkertown he could not have found a single Cleric willing to spill to Roy that a pilgrimage of powerful Clerics had been there recently and then he couldn't come up with any convincing lie to get there, then would have been the right time to risk it. Why not keep his options open as long as possible?

[Goblin_Priest]

So why did he not vamp Belkar instead of throwing him out the window? :P

[Fyraltari]

So why did he not vamp Belkar instead of throwing him out the window? :P

He got really frustrated that it failed twice so he wanted to try again? All that panel 19 is missing is a thought ballon "And stay down!"

[Rrmcklin]

No, this is "Bob had good reason to kill Steve, so how come he didn't?" vs. "The fact he didn't indicates he must not have had good reason." You're not presenting any actual independent evidence that Greg would lack control over non-clerics.

I imagine he would if he kept them as thralls, but he didn't seem to be doing that. And imagine vampire clerics are much more likely to be loyal to Hel and her cause than non-clerical vampires.

[Peelee]

No, this is "Bob had good reason to kill Steve, so how come he didn't?" vs. "The fact he didn't indicates he must not have had good reason." You're not presenting any actual independent evidence that Greg would lack control over non-clerics.

Because clerics made by Hel are significantly more likely to choose to do Hel's bidding, as she will readily grant them powers, as opposed to literally any other class where they have no reason to enter into Hel's service.

Ive never said he would lack control over non-clerics. Hell, I don't think he even exerts control over the clerics he made;from all indications, none of the vamps are under thralldom and all seem to be acting entirely independently, albeit in willing service to Hel. From this, I can guess that the original vampire was not a fan of having to exert constant control over non-clerical vampires, which would fit in with what we see.

Please don't respond with *but why?"

[Fyraltari]

Because clerics made by Hel are significantly more likely to choose to do Hel's bidding, as she will readily grant them powers, as opposed to literally any other class where they have no reason to enter into Hel's service.

Ive never said he would lack control over non-clerics. Hell, I don't think he even exerts control over the clerics he made;from all indications, none of the vamps are under thralldom and all seem to be acting entirely independently, albeit in willing service to Hel. From this, I can guess that the original vampire was not a fan of having to exert constant control over non-clerical vampires, which would fit in with what we see.

Please don't respond with *but why?"

I think the non-casters were thralls because they're never shown taking any iniative, one uses a very childish turn of phrase "she burned us with the bad light!" and well, because as free-will vampires they wouldn't really have a stake (heh) in this.

[Peelee]

I think the non-casters were thralls because they're never shown taking any iniative, one uses a very childish turn of phrase "she burned us with the bad light!" and well, because as free-will vampires they wouldn't really have a stake (heh) in this.

Oh, right, there were some non-casters. I do note they're dwarves, though. Given the Dwarven issue with Hel, I wonder if they also willingly pledged themselves to her cause to be taken with the clerics and saved for the next world, or if they're still thralls. The childishness does indicate the latter.

[Fyraltari]

Oh, right, there were some non-casters. I do note they're dwarves, though. Given the Dwarven issue with Hel, I wonder if they also willingly pledged themselves to her cause to be taken with the clerics and saved for the next world, or if they're still thralls. The childishness does indicate the latter.

If they are afraid of the world ending, being dwarves doesn't enter the equation, vampires are not subject to the Bet. Then again being dwarves, there's a non-trivial chace that they're all lawful and would follow orders of their bloodfather out of compliance. But I like the thrall explanation better.

[Kish]

If a vampire kills a humanoid with 5 hit dice or more by blood draining, the result is that creature with the vampire template added.

If a vampire kills a humanoid with 4 hit dice or less by blood draining, or kills any humanoid by energy draining, the result is a vampire spawn--29 hit points, Str 16, Dex 14, Con Ø, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14, no spellcasting. Whether that humanoid was Laurin or one of the dirt farmers beforehand doesn't make any difference to the vampire spawn's stats.

Just to clarify that it's far from clear that the "non-casters" were not clerics before being converted; if they happened to be level 1-4 clerics, when they were converted into wouldn't have class levels anyway.

[Fyraltari]

If a vampire kills a humanoid with 5 hit dice or more by blood draining, the result is that creature with the vampire template added.

If a vampire kills a humanoid with 4 hit dice or less by blood draining, or kills any humanoid by energy draining, the result is a vampire spawn--29 hit points, Str 16, Dex 14, Con Ø, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14, no spellcasting. Whether that humanoid was Laurin or one of the dirt farmers beforehand doesn't make any difference to the vampire spawn's stats.

Just to clarify that it's far from clear that the "non-casters" were not clerics before being converted; if they happened to be level 1-4 clerics, when they were converted into wouldn't have class levels anyway.

With the exceptions of those wearing Clerical robes, none of the vampires are wearing a holy symbol when they are pretending to be dead and several are wearing civilian/laypeople clothing. I don't think they were low-level Clerics.

[Xyril]

But then wouldn't it have been more cruel to actually go and drink his blood to make a vampire out of Z?

Not really. It's a bit of a recurring trope to punish people by giving them what they want in a way that they didn't expect. If he makes a vampire out of him, it means that nothing Nale said or did could have changed the outcome--plus, given that Nale seemed to think that Durkula was still "Durkon" enough to treat him as Durkon while trying to recruit him, maybe Nale actually does think that if Z was freed from the thrall, it would be the same being, or at the very least, someone close enough to being his friend.

By killing him instead, Durkula was just doing what Nale said--in a strange, twisted sort of way, it becomes partly Nale's fault. If Nale hadn't said what he did, then maybe there would have been a different outcome that was potentially not as bad.

[Peelee]

With the exceptions of those wearing Clerical robes, none of the vampires are wearing a holy symbol when they are pretending to be dead and several are wearing civilian/laypeople clothing. I don't think they were low-level Clerics.

Yeah, I was also basing that on their clothes.