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2019-07-11, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-07-11, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-11, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
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2019-07-11, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-11, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
Whenever I read stuff like "corruption" referred to language change, I want to strangle the speaker.
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2019-07-11, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-12, 04:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-12, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
In my mind, they both sound equally like a stretch. So far as our searches have born fruit, there doesn't seem to be a 'real explanation' better than "16th century translator's rendering of Aristotle's 'petitio principii,' which would more accurately have been 'assume the conclusion.'"
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2019-07-12, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
I know it's a mistranslation. That was just my thinking as to how they got to that particular mistranslation and how it stuck. In terms of English it is, as I said before, absolute nonsense.
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2019-07-12, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
"None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2019-07-12, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-07-13, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
Just because someone uses a bad argument does not mean their conclusion is wrong. Implying that it is is even its own sort of logical fallacy.
Logic is only part of one of the 3 pillars of rhetoric: logos. The other 2, pathos and ethos, do not depend at all on logical argument. Now, pointing out that someone is arguing illogically can undermine their connection with the audience (pathos) or their personal credibility (ethos), but it is not guaranteed to do so. Also, if you do so without actually showing better logical progression, you fall into the aforementioned fallacy that just because someone's logic is bad does not mean that their conclusion is wrong.
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2019-07-14, 02:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
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2019-07-14, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-14, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Bristol, UK
Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
It does mean that their conclusion isn't proved from their assumptions.
You can argue anything from anything, it's only the logical arguments that prove anything, and even those only prove stuff if the assumptions are true.
If you don't mind not proving what you are asserting, you can say any rubbish, but people who are interested in the truth will probably call you out on it.The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2019-07-14, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
If you assert that people are wrong simply because their logic is bad, you are engaging in just as much magical thinking as the people engaging in logical fallacies. Furthermore, the only people who are interested in "the truth" are philosophers. The proper result of a real debate is correct action. You will, if you pay any attention to politics, notice that pretty much everyone engages in lying about what is going on because they think the lies are close enough to the truth to pass muster and that the truth will support their chosen actions anyway. Simply calling out such people for engaging in logical fallacy will get you nowhere. If you want to derail their rhetoric, and thus change the way people react to their ideas, you need to also show where their logic should lead. After all, politicians lying is nothing new, but politicians using facts that, when logically followed, highlight option B as better than option A while clamoring for option A to be followed tend to do less well in their next election.
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2019-07-15, 04:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
That little word "should" is under appreciated. It does a lot of work in arguments, carries a tremendous deal of weight, but it is hardly ever acknowledged for what it is.
In logic, "should" suggests a test. "If my premises are correct, then Thing A should also be true, therefore if we check for the existence of A, we can infer something about the possibility that our premise is true."
But in rhetoric it means something quite different. It means "The world would be a better place if this were true." Which, of course, assumes that you and your audience share a common understanding of what makes the world "better". Therefore it's a word that only works on people who already see you as on their side. Others will hear it as haranguing, or worse, threatening."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2019-07-15, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Bristol, UK
Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
I don't think I said that in the post you quoted.
If someone's logic is bad, then whatever they were trying to prove, wasn't proved by what they said in the section of what they said that was illogical.
If you want to argue that what someone said was true despite them saying it in an illogical way, then you need to find a way to say it that makes logical sense, and that is based on true assumptions.The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2019-07-15, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
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2019-07-15, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
Most of Aristotle's works weren't available to the Latin West for a long time. They were translated to Latin in the XII-XIII century, in Venice and in Spain (famously by king Alfonso el Sabio = the Wise, who had the Arab versions translated into Latin). Both Prior Analytics and Sophistical Refutations (the two works where the petitio principii is discussed) were among them. After that, they were pretty much everywhere.
Oddly enough, the Arab world, which had put a lot of thought on Aristotle during the previous centuries, stopped studying his work around the same time these translations were made, while the West adopted Ibn Rushd's commentaries on Aristotle, who wouldn't really impact the Arab world until the XIX century.Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2019-07-16, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Unimportant 'Language Missuses' 2: Mother May II
I just remembered another common misuse that really bugs me.
In the settings of several mobile applications that I've used there's an option to choose whether to save files to "internal memory" or the "SD card", but this is not what the setting actually does. The "internal memory" setting saves the files to a portion of internal memory that I can't navigate to in other programs without root level access and the "SD card" setting saves the files to a portion of internal memory that I CAN navigate to in other programs without root level access, but neither option actually saves to the SD card"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
Omegaupdate Forum
WoTC Forums Archive + Indexing Projext
PostImage, a free and sensible alternative to Photobucket
Temple+ Modding Project for Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil
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