Least impressive Main character that is supposed to have powers or be strong/skilled?

[GloatingSwine]

Spoiler: FFX

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Yuna causes the change, which she does because of Jyscal's sphere, Tidus is basically irrelevant.

Vaan at least has a stake in the quest, it's his home that's at risk.

I'm not going to pretend to care about spoilers for a game that's old enough to vote.

Tidus is necessary for the plot. It's only his connection to Jecht, the current body of Sin, that allows it to be defeated and the party to meet and defeat Yu Yevon.

Yuna causes the change*, but Tidus is the weapon the Fayth of Zanarkand aim at Sin.




* The FFX:Will audio drama where it gets undone can bugger off. I don't even really like FFX, it's just a mopier copy of Grandia, but at least the original product had a strong conclusion.

[Rynjin]

Tidus is the weapon the Fayth of Zanarkand aim at Sin.

You could almost say Tidus is a tool. Heyo!

[Kitten Champion]

I think RPGs are the antithesis of this idea, because the only core element of a RPG character is their skill. Take a game like Dragon Quest IX for instance - in which your silent protagonist is accompanied by a party of persona-less mercenary NPCs you generate - the only relevance to the game's story the party has is that they make it easier for your MC avatar to progress through battles with their additional power, but they do in fact do that.

You could be an entirely optional character like Yuffie and still be the ultimate slayer of evil gods and cosmic horrors beyond our ken.

If X character isn't as skilled as you'd expect it's usually an issue of game balance or buggy mechanics.

[Razade]

I think RPGs are the antithesis of this idea, because the only core element of a RPG character is their skill. Take a game like Dragon Quest IX for instance - in which your silent protagonist is accompanied by a party of persona-less mercenary NPCs you generate - the only relevance to the game's story the party has is that they make it easier for your MC avatar to progress through battles with their additional power, but they do in fact do that.

You could be an entirely optional character like Yuffie and still be the ultimate slayer of evil gods and cosmic horrors beyond our ken.

If X character isn't as skilled as you'd expect it's usually an issue of game balance or buggy mechanics.

It certainly depends on how you play it and how the story goes. Final Fantasy Tactics comes to mind as an RPG where the main character isn't anything exemplary and it's the sheer force of the people behind you that wins the day.

[Otomodachi]

I've only seen the show, but was Quentin ever supposed to be particularly impressive? IIRC early in season 1 they go out of their way to let Quentin, and the audience know that he's just a normal student, with a lot of enthusiasm and a bit of talent.

Eh, he's definitely a chosen one in the sense that Jane chose him and thinks he's very very important. Of course, Jane is fallible.

Spoiler

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Both the books and movies feel to me like a story mostly about a person coming to accept that they're just a person, not the main character in a story (well, other than literally but the character wouldn't know that), and to temper their expectations in a lot of ways. So yeah, personally I think Q counts as a chosen one, even if his status is then deconstructed 8 ways from next Tuesday.

[Tvtyrant]

I think Cyclops counts in his universe. Cyclops is frequently the weakest member of his own team, an in shape guy with what amounts to a rocketlauncher where his partners are high level supers. In the comics, show and movies he struggles penetrating sentinel armor while Wolverine, Colossus, and Storm kill multiple of them solo. He is essentially the X-Men's Captain America, but doesn't get the same "hyper competent" patina that Steve does.

[tyckspoon]

I think Cyclops counts in his universe. Cyclops is frequently the weakest member of his own team, an in shape guy with what amounts to a rocketlauncher where his partners are high level supers. In the comics, show and movies he struggles penetrating sentinel armor while Wolverine, Colossus, and Storm kill multiple of them solo. He is essentially the X-Men's Captain America, but doesn't get the same "hyper competent" patina that Steve does.

This has always kind of amused me, because at times it feels like 3/4 of the X-men villains are obsessed with the Summers bloodline and trying to create the perfect lifeform/most powerful mutant/whatever from it.. 'tho I suppose Cyclops may have just got the short end of the stick in that particular lottery. His brothers are a fair bit more impressive.

[Tvtyrant]

This has always kind of amused me, because at times it feels like 3/4 of the X-men villains are obsessed with the Summers bloodline and trying to create the perfect lifeform/most powerful mutant/whatever from it.. 'tho I suppose Cyclops may have just got the short end of the stick in that particular lottery. His brothers are a fair bit more impressive.

"His crappy genetics are perfect because they won't get in the way!" Mr. Sinister.

Maybe Cyclops' power doesn't suck, and it is actually him? He could be like Jean and have a Professor X block in his head so he doesn't Frieza the whole world.

[Giggling Ghast]

Avatar Korra and her friends, which is partly why I stopped watching after two seasons. I couldn’t deal with any more incompetence, along with numerous other issues.

"His crappy genetics are perfect because they won't get in the way!" Mr. Sinister.

Interestingly, Cyclops’ eye-beams are, for whatever reason, super-effective against Mister Sinister. They seem to short out his healing factor.

On a related note, Wolverine from X-Men: The Animated Series (the 90s cartoon) totally sucked ass. He was constantly getting his butt handed to him. At one point, he was even defeated by a guy named Hairbag, whose mutant power was basically really bad breath.

[No brains]

The assertion that Tidus never tries to learn about the world implies that all the listening I did to those monks and Maechen was non-canon. That would be the real tragedy of FFX.

One can be informed of a world and decide that it is bogus. Though that's harder when you don't have weapons and opportunity against that bogus.

[The Jack]

Cyclops more strikes me as a character that writers don't want to use because his power, in theory, is too good. I think he holds back so much, maybe because he doesn't want to hurt people and maybe because mutants get a bad rap as weapons but seriously...

The guy could carve up a city if he let it all out. He could destroy an evil base before people even tried to go inside, he can trash tanks and slide his lasers through armies. His power's linked to a universe and tends to be infinite.

If he wasn't such a softie, he'd be the most terrifying member on the team.

[GloatingSwine]

Avatar Korra and her friends, which is partly why I stopped watching after two seasons. I couldn’t deal with any more incompetence, along with numerous other issues.

Korra suffers from the structure of the show. Because each season has a single narrative with strict focus for a 12 episode season there isn't a flow of minor victories and losses throughout the season as there was in TLA which give the protagonists the ability to learn and develop and then use that development against the season villain.

So the structure of a season is that Korra loses for 10 episodes then suddenly doesn't at the end.

[tomandtish]

Avatar Korra and her friends, which is partly why I stopped watching after two seasons. I couldn’t deal with any more incompetence, along with numerous other issues.



Interestingly, Cyclops’ eye-beams are, for whatever reason, super-effective against Mister Sinister. They seem to short out his healing factor.

On a related note, Wolverine from X-Men: The Animated Series (the 90s cartoon) totally sucked ass. He was constantly getting his butt handed to him. At one point, he was even defeated by a guy named Hairbag, whose mutant power was basically really bad breath.

In fairness, most animated Wolverines suffer from being aimed primarily at kids, so a body count is not in the picture (note he will usually do just fine against Sentinals and other robots).

Also, I believe this applies.

[Kyberwulf]

Rey from Force awakens is the Prime example of this.

[archon_huskie]

This is a good example of how important perception is. Perception trumps reality a lot. It does not matter how well you perform at a job, the perception in an interview will trump actual data and history (even if in the same company). This always amazes me when it occurs. I often assume folks do their due diligence (especially if they are in charge of hiring).

Being able to sell yourself is often more important than actual data, or rewards. I was given a trip to the Bahamas, had never missed a raise, and my record is glowing, but I was passed up for a higher paying position when they gave heaps of brand new folks without years of recorded performance the positions. The guy doing the hiring did not like me giving him honest answers. He concluded that I was a negative person because I pointed out a list of glaring problems from the previous season, after he asked about my previous season. These problems were undeniable, ironclad, and I would have bet the house on my observations. People do not want to hear he truth. I really do not understand the point of wanting questions answered with sunshine and rainbows, but that is the way things are done.

Sounds like you have some strong feelings and a few bad personal experiences around this. If you need someone to talk about this, send me a PM.

[Rodin]

Rey from Force awakens is the Prime example of this.

Wait, I thought she was supposed to be a Mary Sue who effortlessly surpassed Luke and had Godlike powers handed to her. Now she's suddenly weak and unskilled?

[Willie the Duck]

Does powerful but ineffectual count? In Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indiana Jones can ride a submarine across oceans on the outside of the submarine, yet, rather famously, he doesn't actually change the outcome of the movie much at all (either with or without his intervention, Nazis would get their hands on the Ark and then destroy themselves with it).

Maybe Cyclops' power doesn't suck, and it is actually him? He could be like Jean and have a Professor X block in his head so he doesn't Frieza the whole world.

Cyclops more strikes me as a character that writers don't want to use because his power, in theory, is too good. I think he holds back so much, maybe because he doesn't want to hurt people and maybe because mutants get a bad rap as weapons but seriously...

The guy could carve up a city if he let it all out. He could destroy an evil base before people even tried to go inside, he can trash tanks and slide his lasers through armies. His power's linked to a universe and tends to be infinite.

If he wasn't such a softie, he'd be the most terrifying member on the team.

Cyclops (scroll down a bit) is regularly described as having one of the most powerful energy blasts of normal level (non "omega class") mutants. He's theoretically on the same level as his brother, and can level blocks. The supposed explanation for why that's rarely, if ever, seen is that he's psychologically incapable of letting loose because he's afraid of hurting innocents. That's of course violated up, down, and twelve ways from sunrise throughout the different media he's in.

Cyclops is an interesting case in that different writers (or sometimes the same writers) want him to be powerful/weak, hero/monster, put-upon-leader/jerk/jerk-who's-right/jerk-with-a-heart-of-gold/jerk-with-no-redeeming-qualities.

[Yora]

Wait, I thought she was supposed to be a Mary Sue who effortlessly surpassed Luke and had Godlike powers handed to her. Now she's suddenly weak and unskilled?

No, she has incredible surprising powers but doesn't actually do anything with it. That's even worse.

[archon_huskie]

Wait, I thought she was supposed to be a Mary Sue who effortlessly surpassed Luke and had Godlike powers handed to her. Now she's suddenly weak and unskilled?

It's weird. Luke struggles with light saber combat in ep4&5 because he's trained with a blaster all his life. Rey is shown to have melee skills when she meets Finn, but then people can't understand why she can use a light saber.

[Tvtyrant]

It's weird. Luke struggles with light saber combat in ep4&5 because he's trained with a blaster all his life. Rey is shown to have melee skills when she meets Finn, but then people can't understand why she can use a light saber.

She is a staff fighter who is suddenly good at fencing. The two are not transferable skills, staff fighting in fact wants you to grab the part that slices your hand off in sword fighting.

[HolyDraconus]

I think most Final Fantasy characters fit the bill, especially in FFIX. Steiner is just really there to protect the princess and doesn't really pressure the narrative as a pro or antagonist. Freya learns her boyfriend forgot her, has her people destroyed, builds a three-loss rivalry with the strongest knight on her continent, and doesn't really do much about any of those things. Quina exists. Salamander/ Amarant has one bit where they sort of learn the power of friendship, but nothing really comes of it.

I know that Zidane is the main character, but all of these people are characters I am given control over and yet I don't feel I do anything with them. It seems like these characters were in the game just to fill out party roles, rather than prop up the story that Zidane, Dagger, Vivi, and Eiko do mostly by themselves.

Zidane is what you get when you want to make Sephiroth the main character but good.

[archon_huskie]

lightsabers have the wrong grip to be used for fencing.

Well except for Count Dooku's

[Tvtyrant]

lightsabers have the wrong grip to be used for fencing.

Well except for Count Dooku's

This is in fact in favor of my point. If you think fencing is difficult with the wrong grip, imagine trying to staff fight with a sword hilt.

[Mordar]

Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker are both mentioned, and I think they very much fit the bill...but totally and completely intentionally. They are meant to be everyboy with a connection to something greater than themselves. At least at the beginning (and I think throughout for Harry).

I think Cyclops counts in his universe. Cyclops is frequently the weakest member of his own team, an in shape guy with what amounts to a rocketlauncher where his partners are high level supers. In the comics, show and movies he struggles penetrating sentinel armor while Wolverine, Colossus, and Storm kill multiple of them solo. He is essentially the X-Men's Captain America, but doesn't get the same "hyper competent" patina that Steve does.

If you roll back to when the X-men were new, power levels across the board were much lower. The idea of reality-warpers hadn't struck yet, power was primarily measured by physical strength, very few supers has a "suite" of powers...and here's this kid that can level buildings by accidentally opening his eyes too far. He had to learn the most control to prevent the worst outcomes, and he became the leader of the team because of his vision (pun intended). Regarding the Sentinels...they first encounter Cyclops much earlier than the others, so they have the most time to adapt/be redesigned to resist the optic blasts. Storm needs help to take them down (for her lightning to bypass their primary armor), and Colossus doesn't last long against them using brute strength. He mostly throws a Canadian missile at them. Cyclops stacks up well against any of the blaster-types from his time and well beyond. Some of that era (60s/70s/80s) was also rocket-tag, but there wasn't much of a chance of anyone standing up to a full optic blast. So this perception of Cyclops as a chump, which is common, is the result of the more "modern" incarnations (cartoon and movies), along with the issue below.

Cyclops more strikes me as a character that writers don't want to use because his power, in theory, is too good. I think he holds back so much, maybe because he doesn't want to hurt people and maybe because mutants get a bad rap as weapons but seriously...

The guy could carve up a city if he let it all out. He could destroy an evil base before people even tried to go inside, he can trash tanks and slide his lasers through armies. His power's linked to a universe and tends to be infinite.

If he wasn't such a softie, he'd be the most terrifying member on the team.

There's part of this, to be sure...but I think from a fan perspective there is another issue. He was the good kid. He stayed home on Friday nights to do his homework, took his date to the ice cream shop and had her home by 7pm, and always tried to do the right thing for the right thing's sake. That was fine early on...but then came the new X-men...and then came the anti-hero era with the flagship bad-a$$ bully Wolverine. So I think there was a gravitational pull towards him as the favorite male X-man. He was cool and edgy and could do and say whatever he wanted (aside: must be tough to be brave when you are unbreakable and can heal any wound in seconds. No, I'm not jealous, you are. Shutup!) and that generated *a lot* of fans among the readers. A whole host of other "new age" heroes like Gambit, Cable and others, came along and further marginalized Cyclops. In order for these characters to shine, older characters got shelved. A full power blast from Cyclops vaporizes anybody he hits (except, of course, Wolverine), and it travels at near-light speed and takes only looking at the person to aim. He would be the best rocket-tagger ever. He just can't be because he's a hero from the old days.

And then came the cartoons, aptly subtitled "Wolverine and a bunch of other people". And then came the movies and Cyclops got a unnoteworthy role with a competent actor...and Wolverine got the starring gig with the hottest actor around. So yeah, nowadays it looks like Cyclops was a chump. Doesn't mean he was.

Does powerful but ineffectual count? In Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indiana Jones can ride a submarine across oceans on the outside of the submarine, yet, rather famously, he doesn't actually change the outcome of the movie much at all (either with or without his intervention, Nazis would get their hands on the Ark and then destroy themselves with it).

I keep seeing this, but I don't believe it. There's the question of Marion...if the bad guys got the real amulet (which they do without Indy around) they find the ark and have the benefit of the extra information (no touch, no look...I know, deleted scenes don't count). Even if they don't get the extra info from the amulet they still have possession of the ark after Belloq and Toht and the rest get melted. Plenty more nazis out there, plenty more opportunities for them to research and, oh, I don't know, see the picture in the book Indy has in the beginning that shows blindfolded guys carrying the ark on poles. And then the world takes a different turn. So, Indy being in the picture allows for the ark to be secured in the warehouse hopefully never to be seen again, rather than a potential weapon for the enemy.

It's hard for me to think of many main characters that are "least impressive" that weren't intended to be so (see Harry Potter, et al, above). I guess I'd say Bella from Twilight certainly qualifies, but that's almost too easy, right?

- M

[Giggling Ghast]

It's actually irrelevant whether or not the Nazis could have used the Ark. Without Indiana's involvement, we wouldn't have an adventure, and the point of the movie is to tell the story of that adventure.

Likewise, Rick Deckard's involvement in Blade Runner is unnecessary — the rogue replicants are doomed no matter what. But if he didn't take the assignment, then we'd have no story exploring this bleak, dystopian future and no ruminations on the exploitation of other sentient beings, even ones made for that purpose.

I can name lots of other examples where the protagonists ultimately come away empty-handed or having technically achieved nothing, but were nonetheless excellent stories.

[Lethologica]

She is a staff fighter who is suddenly good at fencing. The two are not transferable skills, staff fighting in fact wants you to grab the part that slices your hand off in sword fighting.

She's a staff fighter who's suddenly bad at fencing, mostly. Kylo toys with her despite two nasty injuries and a lot of distracting emotional trauma. Even in the one Force-aided moment of victory she saw, it's not like she did anything particularly skillful with the blade.

[Willie the Duck]

they still have possession of the ark after Belloq and Toht and the rest get melted. Plenty more nazis out there, plenty more opportunities for them to research and, oh, I don't know, see the picture in the book Indy has in the beginning that shows blindfolded guys carrying the ark on poles. And then the world takes a different turn. So, Indy being in the picture allows for the ark to be secured in the warehouse hopefully never to be seen again, rather than a potential weapon for the enemy.

That is definitely the weakest link in the criticism. I think it hinges on exactly how the Ark got back to the states after the face-melting. I'm not really convinced the Nazis would have done anything different up to that point (but that too would/might be predicated on which of the things that came into Indy's possession instead came into theirs). But someone does definitely need to figure out a way to get it out of Nazi territory afterwards.

While we're on the subject of obviously strong but questionably applied, how about Ender from Ender's Game? Clearly the best strategic mind of his universe... but was he even needed? I mean, the book clearly made it seem like humanity was on a loosing streak until he came along, but how/why? They had the Doctor Device, which honestly, I don't understand why that didn't win them all their battles regardless.

A slightly more obscure reference (at least on a site like this, where sci-fi/fantasy has strong representation), anyone remember Jarod from the Pretender? There was a character who could 'become' anyone -- brilliant surgeon, racecar driver, etc. That part he did perfectly, but his actual character arc was of an impersonator and vigilante criminal profiler (kind of a non-lethal Dexter who took on different roles to catch said criminals). It never made sense how Jarod's unfamiliarity with nuances of normal human life (he was raised in a super secret facility, bla bla bla exposition) didn't hamstring those two activities.

It's actually irrelevant whether or not the Nazis could have used the Ark. Without Indiana's involvement, we wouldn't have an adventure, and the point of the movie is to tell the story of an adventure.

Likewise, Rick Deckard's involvement in Blade Runner is unnecessary — the rogue replicants are doomed no matter what. But the point of the movie is the journey, not what was accomplished.

We're not criticizing the existence of these stories, we are critiquing the 'impressiveness' (yes, very broad term) of the protagonist in the story.

[Giggling Ghast]

I would argue that Indiana is actually pretty damned impressive, considering how much trouble he gives the Nazis and how he manages to survive the actual Wrath of God.

But the point was made that Indiana "accomplished nothing" by participating in Raiders of the Lost Ark and I have to challenge it, as I have every time I've seen this critique surface.

Yes, technically, Indiana could have stayed home and the end result would be roughly the same, but then we'd have a two-hour film about Professor Jones grading assignments and giving lectures and not growing in an any significant way.

[Willie the Duck]

Yes, technically, Indiana could have stayed home and the end result would be roughly the same, but then we'd have a two-hour film about Professor Jones grading assignments and giving lectures and not growing in an any significant way.

As I just stated two post above, we are not criticizing the existence of these stories, merely analyzing how overall effective individual are within them. I'm very glad you enjoy the film. As do I. However, you are applying a framework of judgment orthogonal to the question at hand. The contestant may have a wonderful singing voice, but this is the Great British Bake Off, not American Idol.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Wait, I thought she was supposed to be a Mary Sue who effortlessly surpassed Luke and had Godlike powers handed to her. Now she's suddenly weak and unskilled?

Schroedinger's Sue: simultaneously underpowered and overpowered, depending on how you feel like criticizing the story at this time!