Mythos Building: Gods, Creation Stories, Etc...

[MonkeySage]

I'm looking to actually create a coherent mythos with all the deities I've established for my own Pathfinder setting...

Where did these gods come from? How do they relate to each other? How did they create this world?

I've established that several of these deities not only go by different names in different pantheons, but many of them have several distinct aspects, each with their own portfolios, personalities, and alignments.

Case in Point: The Sun God of the Imperial Pantheon is neutral good. The chief Elven god, chaotic good, is an aspect of the Sun God.

In looking for inspiration, I've turned to a few different sources: Real World Mythology, obviously. Also Forgotten Realms and Elder Scrolls. I've also been meaning to read the Silmarillion once I get the chance...

One Idea I like, though: There is a "True" creation story to my setting, and most cultural creation myths will refer to it- altering the story, embellishing and mystifying it, but that no mortal culture has the full story.

Any advice going forward on how I can put it together?

[Max_Killjoy]

My first suggestion is, rough out the world you want as your end point, rough out the kind of creation you want as your starting point, and then simultaneously work forward from the start and backward from the present day, and see where they meet. You'll probably have to do multiple "drafts" of this process to get it where you like, and that's your "cosmological history" for the setting.

You'll also need a creation mythos and cosmology that leave room for those different interpretations and incarnations -- for the mortals to disagree and the true truth to be as uncertain as you need it to be.

[Xuc Xac]

You'll also need a creation mythos and cosmology that leave room for those different interpretations and incarnations -- for the mortals to disagree and the true truth to be as uncertain as you need it to be.

You'll also need to eliminate any divination spells that allow high level priests to get direct answers from the gods. It's hard to have things like "the human sun worshipers say this but the elven sun worshipers say that" when high level members of both faiths can just ask the sun god for clarification.

[brian 333]

You'll also need to eliminate any divination spells that allow high level priests to get direct answers from the gods. It's hard to have things like "the human sun worshipers say this but the elven sun worshipers say that" when high level members of both faiths can just ask the sun god for clarification.

How can a mere mortal comprehend the thoughts of a god? Multiple origin stories may simultaneously be true. If mortals see differences, that's a failing of being mortal, not a deception by a deity. As an example, when a three year old asks 'Where do babies come from,' you give a very different answer than you would give to the same question from a ten-year-old.

OP, is the question a 'How To' question or a 'Give Me Ideas' question?

How-To:

Begin with a creation mythos. What came first? Was all Chaos and Void until a creator deity came along? Was all a single unity of Law until a destruction deity came along? Here is an example plagiarized from multiple creation myths:

***

In the time before time there was Void, the Eternal Nothing. In the Void was all potential but none of it could be realized until The Raven coalesced in the act of creating time. In the moment of the creation of time, what had been a mindless potential realized its possibilities and as time came to be so too did The Raven, whose spirit was of outside of time, but whose physical form was bound within it. From that center all directions were to the edge of The Void, and The Raven knew that to journey beyond its boundaries would be to undo itself and all of the possibilities which Time enabled.

Looking about within the bounds of Time, Raven discovered the Seed Of Potential, and studied it for an eternity, until he realized it could be planted in the firmament of Time, where it would grow, and as it grew it would expand the realms of Time. And so it did. As its roots divided and its branches stretched forth, the Tree of Potential grew. From its branches all the things which grow of the Earth had their seed, and from its roots new shoots sprang forth to give ever newer, ever stranger seeds. Thus each world has at its core a shoot of the Tree of Potential.

Raven flew from branch to branch, admiring the Tree, but in the silence of Time it was alone. After another eternity of thought Raven determined to create others like itself. For ages it consumed the fruits of the Trees of Potential, absorbing its power of growth, until it finally nested and laid its eggs. The eggs, when hatched, were lesser versions of itself, but each was unique. Some had greater or lesser power, some had greater or lesser intellect, or passion, or heart. Each, according to its tastes and desires, began to consume the fruit of the Trees of Potential, and they in turn gave birth to even lesser beings.

Thus the joy of The Raven was completed. And when its children learned to make war upon one another Raven did not interfere, but watched. And it is said that Raven ate those of its children who were slain so that they might be reborn anew, in the fullness of time.

***

Now, from there I can begin to extrapolate the gods and their stories. But let's just extract a bit from Raven. Raven is the Keeper of the Dead as well as the Creator. His great promise is the return of the dead to life, in time. Thus his clergy set out the dead on platforms open to the sky and allow carrion crows to consume their flesh.

Raven hates undead, as they cannot be reborn until they die. Raven is an observer, and doesn't interfere. thus Raven's clerics tend to make good neutral arbitrators, messengers between rival powers, or judges. Raven's clerics are known for their ability to Raise Dead or for Resurrection, but they seldom employ these powers, instead acting as funeral director for the bereaved. A cleric of The Raven can substitute a Summon Carrion Crows for a Turn Undead spontaneously. D6 times (cleric level + Wis bonus) Carrion Crows appear to consume a corpse or to otherwise obey the summoner as if they were Commanded Undead. This control requires line of sight which, if interrupted, causes the control to fail. Corpses consumed by the summoned carrion rows are unsuitable for use as undead or for the Raise Dead spell.

[Xuc Xac]

How can a mere mortal comprehend the thoughts of a god? Multiple origin stories may simultaneously be true. If mortals see differences, that's a failing of being mortal, not a deception by a deity. As an example, when a three year old asks 'Where do babies come from,' you give a very different answer than you would give to the same question from a ten-year-old.

A mortal doesn't have to comprehend the thoughts of the god. The god is more than capable of understanding mortals and explaining things in terms they understand just like I can phrase the baby answer for a ten year old. And if two 10-year-olds both asked the same question, I wouldn't give them two different conflicting answers and then say "oooOOOOooo, I work in mysterious ways".

[brian 333]

A mortal doesn't have to comprehend the thoughts of the god. The god is more than capable of understanding mortals and explaining things in terms they understand just like I can phrase the baby answer for a ten year old. And if two 10-year-olds both asked the same question, I wouldn't give them two different conflicting answers and then say "oooOOOOooo, I work in mysterious ways".

What if all of the creation myth are true? We're dealing with deities with the power of simultaneous polylocation. Different aspects of the same deity can do their part in creation, and subsequently the answer to the question will be different depending on which aspect you ask.

[Max_Killjoy]

What if all of the creation myth are true? We're dealing with deities with the power of simultaneous polylocation. Different aspects of the same deity can do their part in creation, and subsequently the answer to the question will be different depending on which aspect you ask.

I find that very difficult, personally. It's one thing for them to be subjectively true from different perspectives, from limited or distant viewpoints... but for all of them to be literally objectively true even when they directly contradict each other, doesn't work for me.

Now, this is not to say that the OP can't or shouldn't go your route on it, they should do what works best for their setting and their preferences.

[MonkeySage]

Well, there is the "need to know" basis thing, as well as secrets unknown to the vast majority of deities in my setting- such as the true nature of Asmodeus and his actual role in creation.

There are five major players at the start, the only beings (aside from qlippoth) in existence: The Overgod, who created the concept of linear time so that things could happen; The Goddess of Light, The Stars, and Creation; and the Goddess of Destruction and the Void. The Goddess of Light created the Sun God and Asmodeus as her first two children, so that they could her put creation together.

At some point, a massive battle breaks out between the Goddesses, in which Asmodeus is either "killed" and reborn, or falls. It's possible that Asmodeus was either always evil, or started good. Most mortals actually believe he was a fallen angel, not a god, because that is what their gods told them.

All this before most of the other gods are even born.

[Max_Killjoy]

Well, there is the "need to know" basis thing, as well as secrets unknown to the vast majority of deities in my setting- such as the true nature of Asmodeus and his actual role in creation.

There are five major players at the start, the only beings (aside from qlippoth) in existence: The Overgod, who created the concept of linear time so that things could happen; The Goddess of Light, The Stars, and Creation; and the Goddess of Destruction and the Void. The Goddess of Light created the Sun God and Asmodeus as her first two children, so that they could her put creation together.

At some point, a massive battle breaks out between the Goddesses, in which Asmodeus is either "killed" and reborn, or falls. It's possible that Asmodeus was either always evil, or started good. Most mortals actually believe he was a fallen angel, not a god, because that is what their gods told them.

All this before most of the other gods are even born.

Can you give us the basic rundown the "real" cosmology and history of the deities, the lineage of the current deities, what Asmodeus' actual role in creation was, etc?

[MonkeySage]

A tall order! Well, I'll start with the easiest part: To be honest, I'm not entirely certain.

NFS (ng) - Goddess of Creation
ATS (ne) - Goddess of Destruction
ELN (ng) - God of the Sun
ILR (le, formerly lg)- Asmodeus

NFS and ATS were created by the Overgod by accident, when they created the concept of linear time.

NFS created ILR and his brother, ELN, first. NFS, ILR, and ELN began the act of creation against ATS's wishes to keep the world quiet. NFS and ATS came to blows but with the help of ILR and ELN, NFS won, leaving her sister to mope.

ATS decided this time around that directly attacking her sister wouldn't work, so she began whispering in ILR's ear, sowing the seeds of ambition in him.

At this time, there was the Void (Which would later become Limbo), the Astral Plane, and one other plane- I don't really have a name for it, but it was a good aligned "Outer" Plane at a time when there were no inner planes.

So, as all this started to take shape, ILR became increasingly frustrated with the direction his mother and brother were taking. From here, I'm uncertain exactly how things would play out...

Skipping ahead, ILR is currently ruler of Hell, as always, and there are now dozens of deities- to list a few, and where they came from:

ZHT (n) - God/Goddess of Magic: spawned from the blood of NFS.
STH (n) - God of Nature: Third son of NFS, Twin of HMA
HMA (ng) - Goddess of Life and Agriculture: First daughter of NFS, Twin of STH
TNS (lg) - God of Valor: Fourth son of NFS
XRT (ng) - Bahamut: Fifth son of NFS
ZAN (lg) - God of Craftsmanship: Sixth son of NFS
VDA (cg) - Goddess of Love: Child of ELN and HMA
EBR (n) - Former God of Death: Origin unknown
BNA (n) - Current Goddess of Death: Ascended Mortal
MDA (ce) - Norn of Bad Luck: Child of TNS
ORA (cg) - Norn of Good Luck: Child of TNS
ENA (cn) - Goddess of Shadows: Origin Unknown
LNA (ln) - Goddess of Retribution: Child of ELN
EST (ne) - Tiamat: Child of XRT
APS (n) - God of Time: Incarnation of the Overgod

And lots of others. I really hope that wasn't too much to take in XD

The most important deities are all children of NFS or ATS.

The current cosmology is made up of dozens of worlds, most corresponding to a particular deity. Faith is more important than alignment in determining where a soul ends up, since I based it off of Forgotten Realm's World Tree Cosmology, with a few of my own touches.

[Yanagi]

I think you've piled together too many recurring mythopoetic things in your cosmogony, to the point that there's no need for a story because the ur-story, the tropes, are so well defined. You've got a monotheistic act of creation leading to a dualist good-evil pair leading to the creation of a solar deity and Asmodeus acting as demiurges followed by the standard Fall. It's a turducken.

Here's how I would pare it down and sidestep the derivative parts of the cosmogony:

There's a demiurge (Overgod) that creates a world, but in the process cleaves itself into two parts that are trapped within the sphere of creation rather than external to it. Those two parts are initially without alignment but represent two aspects of creation: the desire to create fixed, perfect form (standing in for Creation, but with a portfolio of matter and order. associated with the cold, the dark, and the sterile vacuum because they preserve) and the desire to create dynamic but imperfect form (standing in for Destruction, but with a portfolio of energy and transformation; associated with warmth, light, and everything that aids ferment and rot because they transform and digest). Both desire to continue creation of the world but with different ends in mind.

This tension then extends through the rest of creation as they sometimes agree and work collaboratively and sometimes disagree and work separately. These cycles ripple through the entire creation process of the cosmos, and on occasions the tensions escalate to the point that they attempt to tear down parts of the other's work. As such, their alignments are not really fixed, as they used "good" and "evil" methods to achieve ends that are inscrutable to lesser beings. Even within mortal reckoning there are phases where one or the other is more antagonistic or vicious.

These cycles of conflict, cooperation, or competition result in the creation and propagation of beings matching the priorities of one demiurge, in the moment, to address a role from a specific perspective. While many aspects of creation seem to be set in stone--its seems like nothing ventured is ever removed from creation thereafter--novelties and prodigies...gods, disasters, monsters, magic, new permutations of sapient being...still appear, and mortals are left to wonder if the process of creation will ever stop, whether their experimentation and one-ups-man-ship will ever come to a close.

I propose this because I think the tension--Hegelian thesis, antithesis, synthesis--is more interesting than a hard dichotomy. Beings that just want to end everything are common in mythology but they're also flat: Apep fights the sun, the tzitzimime will eat the stars if Huitzilpochtli doesn't fight them each night...each is the ultimate threat to their cosmology, but they're basically a footnote in myths because total destruction has no complexity. The former is just a big snake jerk and the latter have no personality beyond "existential threat." They never win because they've only got the one win condition. Having the prime movers not have ends that perfectly match Good and Evil, but rather pursue Order versus Dynamism as (almost artistic) ideals creates a great explanation for the florid overgrowth of gods, monsters, sapients beings, and the kind of crazy events that launch adventuring parties.

Within this idea of "the world is defined by two competing creators who are still active" also explains why there would be many gods, some aspects of the same concept, and why there would be a full range of alignments, and why there could be multiple "family" pantheons. Divinity is just another technology applied to facilitate cooperation or competition, so new gods are created as replacements; old gods have aspects of their core function split off and spun into a self-contained program; portfolios get updated; et cetera.

In this concept, all gods (except elevated mortals) have a "geneaology" that traces back to one of the demiurges, or both of them. There are both generational divides--such as the distinction of the Titans from the Olympians--and divides and descent--such as how the Devas and Asuras branch from the same small set of families led by immortal sages--and (if desired) by region or species, like the Aesir and Vanir.

From the initial round of creation to the current day there have been multiple rounds of apotheosis, so there are "early gods" that preceded sapient life, "old gods" that have persisted through many cycles of conflict, "new gods." Older deities and pantheons sometimes produce (or create) divine offspring, so not every deity is a direct creation by the demiurges. Since you presented a solar deity as the first created, one possibility is that he acts symbolically as the consort of the two female-aspected demiurges, making him the all-father figure of most of the setting's deities, and the highest, most powerful "knowable" god with clerics and temples and such.

Phases of more aggressive competition also explain the existence of a healthy roster of Evil, or just insalubrious, deities, and/or the appearances of non-divine beings big enough and threatening enough to act as foils for gods, the equivalent of beings like Fenris, and the ascent of hero-demigods who battle such creatures.

(I can see boths phases of good/bad behavior by demiurges and the appearance of new gods being the kinds of events mortals record as the beginnings and ends of historical ages.)

_{(Stick a pin in Asmodeus. He gets his own section and I need some sleep.)}

[Max_Killjoy]

I propose this because I think the tension--Hegelian thesis, antithesis, synthesis--is more interesting than a hard dichotomy. Beings that just want to end everything are common in mythology but they're also flat: Apep fights the sun, the tzitzimime will eat the stars if Huitzilpochtli doesn't fight them each night...each is the ultimate threat to their cosmology, but they're basically a footnote in myths because total destruction has no complexity. The former is just a big snake jerk and the latter have no personality beyond "existential threat." They never win because they've only got the one win condition. Having the prime movers not have ends that perfectly match Good and Evil, but rather pursue Order versus Dynamism as (almost artistic) ideals creates a great explanation for the florid overgrowth of gods, monsters, sapients beings, and the kind of crazy events that launch adventuring parties.

Somewhat along those lines, I think it's better to NOT have "good" and "evil" deities when there are a lot of them -- that instead deities have drives, interests, and biases that both cause and are caused by what they're the deity "of". So the deity of freedom is opposed to slavery and oppressive laws... but also not a fan of marriage or binding contracts or much in the way of any laws. The deity of the fertility is a defender of families and giver of good harvests and protector during childbirth... but also expects every mortal to have as many children as they can support, and is angered by celibacy, contraceptives, etc.

[MonkeySage]

I've been considering simplifying it, since the story i provided above was more an attempt to reconcile different stories than create my own, lol.

Well some proposed changes I could make from the start:

NFS: cn-cg, not ng
ELN: Going back to my original plan, he may have started out cg, and shifted to ng later.
ATS: possibly ln-le?
ILR: Never fell (His fall story instead being a complete fabrication, along with just about everything else about him). Started out le, possibly a creation of ATS instead of NFS?

Here, law-chaos is more important than good-evil, at least at first.

The accidental creation of Limbo is a key event and a turning point in creation. It was a biproduct of NFS and ATS's skirmishes. NFS uses the materials of Limbo to create the inner planes, and ultimately the Mortal Plane.

While I can't shave the roster down, I would like to aim for a simpler story. I'm not opposed to the idea of a total overhaul of the story I've got so far!

[Max_Killjoy]

Sorry if I missed it -- what are all the three-letter-names about?

[MonkeySage]

Brevity, while some of the names are short, others are pretty annoying to spell out and I'm kinda lazy.

[Max_Killjoy]

Brevity, while some of the names are short, others are pretty annoying to spell out and I'm kinda lazy.

I'm going to have to go back and make a table of which one is which, just so I can keep track.

[MonkeySage]

I'm sorry, I hoped to keep the confusion down, didn't mean to confuse things more, lol.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm sorry, I hoped to keep the confusion down, didn't mean to confuse things more, lol.

Not your fault, my brain just doesn't memorize "random" codes for things, I have the same issue at work where the old material code system had 9 digits that all meant things, and the new material code system is just sequential 4-digit numbers assigned as whatever new product is added to the inventory.

[MonkeySage]

It doesn't help that I'm prone to changing my mind- which is actually part of why I wanted to settle on a simpler story. They've all changed names, and the creation story itself has changed- luckily it hasn't yet come into play in game!

[Yanagi]

Somewhat along those lines, I think it's better to NOT have "good" and "evil" deities when there are a lot of them -- that deities have drives, interests, and biases that both cause and are caused by what they're the deity "of". So the deity of freedom is opposed to slavery and oppressive laws... but also not a fan of marriage or binding contracts or much in the way of any laws. The deity of the fertility is a defender of families and giver of good harvests and protector during childbirth... but also expects every mortal to have as many children as they can support, and is angered by celibacy, contraceptives, etc.

Well...there's a reason I used the lower-cases version as opposed to the alignment terms to keep the concept vague, but since the OP used alignment, I operated under the assumption that it's a feature they want to use and just operated with that premise. Generally when I respond to stuff I like to provide options and point out how an idea I propose can be bent or altered to suit the needs of the person I'm responding to.

My position is that alignment is something to note, but that shouldn't be treated as defining characteristic, even when creating extraplanar beings. Primarily I make Planescape materials for fun, and I spend a lot of time playing with definitions of Good/Evil/Law/Chaos to make things more interesting and to create space for player exploration and conflict, but still thematically sound. After years of doing it, I think the best way to handle it is to acknowledge that it's a time-saver, and it fills a need because fantasy rpg deities have no authentic cultural back stage; and some players just want to interact with the notion on a mechanical level as a very rough guideline...

...and then I move on and create characters that have complex, shifting views anyway. Pure is poor.

(yes, some people really hate that and want alignment to be completely solid and immutable)

Alignment is a tool not a covenant is a case-specific extrapolation of Rule 0, in my opinion.

Well some proposed changes I could make from the start

First off, let me say that I always respond to posts out of positivity and enthusiasm for the project, so if I offer criticism or suggest something it's never from a harsh place. I like your ideas. I sat down to create a "my version" of two goddesses because your idea sparked something. After some sleep, I'm having fun thinking about how to assemble a big messy pantheon that sort of feels like the one in the stories I grew up with and the mythology books I read.

That said...

The mechanical necessities of D&D cosmology run counter to the qualities that make for an evocative myth because in rpgs there are many worlds and they have a standardized set of features so that the standardized magic and the standardized gods and the standardized critters fit in with minimal re-skinning. I love Planescape and have all kinds of crazy inventions about relationships between the Inner Planes and Material and such and forth, but that language exists to literally create a Ikea generic all-myth that's supposed to substitute for specific, contradictory creation myths. "Belief is reality" and "it's all true" are ways of punting on important theological questions that arise from having a clown car's worth of redundant pantheons occupying a shared cosmos.

The result is what I think of as the oatmeal problem: too many giant abstract, infinite or near-infinite things results in a bland, same-y feeling. Myths from real-life have a sense of place and part of their power is the usage of human-scale imagery that convey the feeling of what the abstractions are. The primal Chaos of Khemetic myths is the water margin of the Nile Delta...reeds, muck, frogs, snakes...and inception of Order is the first mound of dry land, or the first lotus blossom to open. Salt water in myths is frequently the pre-life medium in which creation floats, and fish are alien and possibly immortal things. The fantastic locations of myths--Olympus, Meru, Tian Yu--often start from an actual location that feels unworldly--beautiful, or terrifying, or lethal. The best way to write a mythos is to completely ignore the general terminology of planes and alignment and instead try and create an evocative initial image.

Extemporanenous story time:

There's a collection of simian races living on the same continent. In their stories, the endless salt water ocean is the primal Chaos and creation is the act of their creator--who is a trickster, kind and clever but lazy and comfort-seeking--swindling and arranging trades with other primal beings because swimming endlessly in the dark is neither fun nor entertaining. Creation is achieved by a series of accidents and tricks as the creator tries to find a way to be comfortable: he invents light grinding his teeth in boredom until they spark; and arrives at the idea of inventing sky by trading light to deep creatures for the breath (gas) in their lungs, then kneading that breath until he can stretch it from horizon to horizon. He enjoys floating for awhile, then decides he wants to not be wet and be able to just lie down, so he persuades a beast with a broad back to rest on the surface of the water...but when he invents fire so that he can be dry and enjoy light, he sets the beast's back ablaze and has to throw the fire into the sky, creating the sun (and scarring the back of the beast so badly that it becomes a hard shell).

He attempts to create land by heaping together the dung of all the creature in the sea, but it dissolves and accidentally creates the ocean floor. He tries again with dung...drying it in the sun and creating a raft...then lights a fire to celebrate only to discover that dung is flammable. He flings this mass into the sky as well, where it breaks into bits and burns down to ash and coal, creating the moons. He finally succeeds in creating land by stealing pieces of the great things in deep--bones skin, scales, organs--and binding them together with his own body and blood.

He steals so much from the other beasts that they fall apart and become mortal animals and monsters, inventing finite life and death. Finally comfortable and tired from the effort, he invents sleep, falls asleep on his patch of dry land, and dies. In his absence the things he created come to life and develop their own motives and desires...and stories about those beings explain stuff like weather, clouds, night and day, eclipses, stars, etc.

A few aeons later the trickster creators recovers from death, steals enough bits to make himself a body, and accidentally create the sapient species that worships him in the process. Then there's a second phase of scams and hustles to create a safe and hospitable environments for his creations...because they're super nice and all, but he's not going to spend eternity playing nursemade, sheesh....

Incorporated into that story are elements that match how Material Planes function in D&D cosmology...primal chaos matter differentiated into four kinds of material that is turn as recombined to create critical elements of the world, the hint of a larger cosmic system in which there are god-sized beasties the creator interacts with, creations of central elements of the world-order (that are smaller gods) that take up the task of further developing the world, an explanation of the creator's absence from day-to-day life, seeds of deity-scale conflict that ripple through mortal life.

Because there's no "right" mythology or god-form or order of creation, process and good order don't matter, and the detail work chosen at random becomes the jumping off point for the narrative to develop further. Two hours in a series of choices that operate on dream logic...a batrachian god-frog that creates the world while trying to slack off, becoming a god-monkey and progenitor in the process...I'm percolating. I can make a pantheon from the random things I put in those stories...the turtle, the sun, the moons made of burnt dung, the annoyed creatures missing chunks of themselves. The internal rhyme of the elements is more important than the box-ticking of portofolios and planes.

Applied to your story as you told it initially, with Destruction and Creation directly opposed, making my own imagery choices very fast:

The space before creation is a solid, smooth cube of lead to which the overgod applies the chisel of his power. Time is the crack that spreads through the nothing, dividing infinite, eternal sameness into possibility.

When the sphere splits it is into two ragged irregular pieces equal in size (and thus power) but different in form--Creation and Destruction--and a cloud of powder and fragments--the undifferentiated matter of the possible.

Creation, true to her nature, sees how possibility is fractal, that from the fragments of the possible can come not specific just discrete things but a self-sustaining flowering of ever-more detailed creation...if only given an initial push. Destruction, having no nature beyond her eponym, comes into being and immediately attacks her opposite. The very notion of form and body comes into existence as Destruction attempts to tear apart Creation, remove the qualities that will lead to further change and complexity. This isn't a glorious combat or an honorable duel, it's a up-close struggle of biting, gouging, tearing, enveloping. Death does not exist, the goal is dismemberment and absorption. It's a twin trying to digest the other twin in the womb.

But the attack has the opposite effect of intending...the "blood" of Creation reacts with that those fragments of possibility, and it's like inoculating a petri dish: suddenly there's more possibility, more change...there's Limbo, and Limbo fills up the space around and between the goddesses. There's no longer a nothingness for Destruction to return to, and her intentions create new possibilities as she thrashes about. She births Fire and Negative Energy trying to remove Limbo's ability to take shape and grow, and from their birth comes ash and cinders, the first solid matter.

But the contest in inherently unequal; creation incorporates destruction, and the goddess of the latter inherently contributes to the former as she creates new aspects of destruction. Creation has won, not by fighting as an equal and opposite, but by understanding how to envelope and incorporate her opponent. From Fire she separates out Light, Air, and Positive Energy. From the stillness of Negative Energy she creates Water. By setting this things into a cube-shaped matrix of oppositions and complements she forms the Inner Planes--a self-sustaining reactor of creation, fueled by destruction--echoing both the contest between herself and her sister and the undifferentiated cosmic lead from which they stemmed.

The Inner Planes is literally a box that protects reality from Destruction, and over and over Destruction's attempt to break the box, shut down the cycle in which destruction feeds creation (because nothing is lost, only remade) creates problems for the beings operating within the constructed reality.

Creation actively curates her reality with an eye towards more complexity and self-propagating creativity. Her family is gods that preserve and make things, starting with a benevolent solar deity that provides the energy to fuel a material-place world (son or consort?). From him emanates a normal array of nature gods and craft gods yadda yadda.

Destruction doesn't really plot; she smashes. Like, literally. Imagine a deity slamming around the reality they made like it was the fax machine in Office Space. Her attempts to destroy things, though, ultimately make her an unintentional collaborator in the shaped of creation. What she breaks persists and becomes a thing unto itself. She splits gods in two and the two bits persist independently. She pierces the ground and the volcano that forms create a new island. Her want incarnates as prodigies that are destructive for their own ends rather than the return to nothingness. Proud but stupid mortals use worship and magic to try and draw down her power on selected targets.

[MonkeySage]

That's pretty awesome! I should have more to contribute after classes, but for now: so, the first attempt at creating the mortal plane was a noble but flawed effort. In order to create something more stable, Avalon and Shadow were separated from the Mortal Plane (this may have been one of ILR's better ideas, though he doubtless had an ulterior motive...), and became conduits for the positive and negative energy planes respectively.

At some point later, the first race of elves arrived on the mortal plane, worshipping an aspect of the sun god ELN. These winged elves are the descendants of fey and gods.

According to dwarven myth, the first dwarves were hewn from stone by the craftsman ZAN.

Halflings claim HMA as their celestial mother, who taught them a love for the simple life, for kindness and generosity. Though normally gentle and passive, HMA is like a bear defending her cubs when they're threatened.

XRT fathered the very first linnorms even before the mortal plane was differentiated. They were given the gifts of intelligence and divine power, becoming true dragons.

TNS uplifted humanity, instilling his values of courage and ambition in them.

ILR... I think I'm sticking with the idea that ATS "created" him, possibly by tearing him from ELN.

[PhoenixPhyre]

So my "true" mythos/creation story goes something like this (told from a scholar's perspective in-universe):

All scholars know the story of the origin of our sphere and its planar adjuncts. What lies beyond? Again, the answer is known to all, even children. The Dark Beyond, home of creatures alien to our reality, whose very presence warps and twists existence. But then, what of the One? It who created our sphere? It must have come from the Dark Beyond. How did It start? What else is there?

The Gods refuse to speak of this topic. Experiments in reaching to the Beyond to ask its denizens questions ended badly. Who else might know? In desperation, consumed by this question, I turned to Leviathan. With my mightiest spells I transformed myself into Leviathan and listened to my own song. While most of the knowledge faded once I was returned to mortal shape, I will write what I remember.

Leviathan's Song
I remember the singing. We sang to ourself, for we are one but we are many. The deeps are not silent--they are filled with the slow, stately song of memory and of being. It echoes and is re-sung, layers of melody overlapping with itself, forming new song. This is the oldest song we sang:

Mother Dark lay dreaming;
Dreaming the endless dream.
Does She still dream?
In time without time?

Into the dream came a thought:
I am; I am ALONE.
What is it to be?
What is loneliness?

If there is self,
There is other.
And so other came to be.
Children of the dreaming Dark.

Creators and Destroyers,
Darkness and Light.
Each making and unmaking with a thought.

ONE created nine, a world to shape:

Air to move,
Fire to burn,
Earth to stand still,
And Water to remember.

Life to create,
Death to bring peace,
Good to look outward,
Evil to take care of self.

Watching for the coming of the Nameless, bearing change.

The last four stanzas obviously reference the creation of our world, Quartus. I believe that the rest refer to the Dark Beyond. That space between universes must be a realm where thought shapes reality--somehow, that eternal silence of oneness was broken. If the One came forth, so must have others, each creating and destroying as they saw fit. Is this then what the stars are? pinpricks through the Barrier at the Edge of the crystal sphere, showing other creations?

The Nine and One have other names and none of them are still active (having sacrificed themselves/been unmade at the resolution of the Dawn War when the Nameless rebelled and the planes were created).The remains of the One became the Great Mechanism that regulates everything and distributes the energy of creation around the Crystal Sphere. The "gods" are a much more recent thing, and are all ascended mortals, each given a particular set of responsibilities by the Great Mechanism in exchange for eternal youth (but not true immortality--gods can die) and power. We're currently on the 2nd or 3rd set of gods.

[Max_Killjoy]

So my "true" mythos/creation story goes something like this (told from a scholar's perspective in-universe):



The Nine and One have other names and none of them are still active (having sacrificed themselves/been unmade at the resolution of the Dawn War when the Nameless rebelled and the planes were created).The remains of the One became the Great Mechanism that regulates everything and distributes the energy of creation around the Crystal Sphere. The "gods" are a much more recent thing, and are all ascended mortals, each given a particular set of responsibilities by the Great Mechanism in exchange for eternal youth (but not true immortality--gods can die) and power. We're currently on the 2nd or 3rd set of gods.

It's interesting how our settings have these elements and concepts in common, and then go off in such different directions.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It's interesting how our settings have these elements and concepts in common, and then go off in such different directions.

Heh. Just like how amoeba and elephants are made of the same building blocks, but end up very different.

Belated Edit: I should make it clear that I intend no comparison of our respective world-building efforts to amoeba or elephants, in any direction. Sometimes things are clear in my head but when put into words...not so much.

It's why I'm not particularly perturbed by "formulaic" fiction, as long as it's implemented well. There just aren't that many building blocks out there that actually hang together.

[Yanagi]

That's pretty awesome! I should have more to contribute after classes, but for now: so, the first attempt at creating the mortal plane was a noble but flawed effort. In order to create something more stable, Avalon and Shadow were separated from the Mortal Plane (this may have been one of ILR's better ideas, though he doubtless had an ulterior motive...), and became conduits for the positive and negative energy planes respectively.

At some point later, the first race of elves arrived on the mortal plane, worshipping an aspect of the sun god ELN. These winged elves are the descendants of fey and gods.

According to dwarven myth, the first dwarves were hewn from stone by the craftsman ZAN.

Halflings claim HMA as their celestial mother, who taught them a love for the simple life, for kindness and generosity. Though normally gentle and passive, HMA is like a bear defending her cubs when they're threatened.

XRT fathered the very first linnorms even before the mortal plane was differentiated. They were given the gifts of intelligence and divine power, becoming true dragons.

TNS uplifted humanity, instilling his values of courage and ambition in them.

ILR... I think I'm sticking with the idea that ATS "created" him, possibly by tearing him from ELN.

I'll get back to you on the pantheon as a whole.

Returning to the subject of ILR/Asmodeus. Okay, given the alignment you assigned him (LE), the ambivalence about whether he's the established Asmodeus of Planescape, and the general Satan-y vibe...he's The Antagonist, the figure that is deeply engaged with the world system but doens't have compassionate or altruistic goals. Where Destruction exists external to the world-system and just wants everything gone, this figure wants to total control over the world-system for...what have you.

Your imagery and reference choices suggest these traits:

- he's a being formed early in the process of creation, with a hand a great deal of the making the world, not a being that "corrupts" existing creations.
- because of the pantheon's genealogical order, his rivalry is with the solar deity...brother-brother or father-son
- because he's LE and an Asmodeus expy, an emphasis on control rather than total destruction
- because you describe a "Fall" scenario...a being that stands apart from the rest of the pantheon, rather than being outlier that is nonetheless part of the pantheon?
- driven by pride and jealousy
- a deceiver and a manipulator

Choices:
_{(Sorry, I explain what I'm doing because it clarifies my thought process, and also because I want anyone reading to have the option of stealing the parts if they find them entertaining)}

One, I've already been doing a thing where there's dualism, but the dualism is asymmetrical. I think it would be cool to replicate that idea over and over through the layers of mythology. Basically, the cosmos is a series of tafl games rather than a chess match. So the solar deity and the antagonist deity start as brothers in the order of creation, but are neither equal or opposite in power and portfolio.

Two, I think it's cooler if this being actually makes stuff and assembles the world while being evil rather than yet another "...and then they fell, and could only corrupt creation" story. The idea of creation beginning with deceit...that there was hidden trick...is fun. I associate LE alignment with abuse of power and authority and the invention of structures that facilitate abuse of power and authority...it is a constructive kind of evil, similar to Ialbadoath, the Gnostic Demiurge. I especially like this idea because I can envision the asymmetrical relationship: the solar deity bursting with power and enthusiasm and good will, and the antagonist as the ideas man who creates the schematics but also is working an angle.

Three, I like the idea that this antagonist is some other kind of celestial body, just because I think it's fun and I like the idea of a sobriquet like "The Failed Sun" being out there. I like the idea of binary star solar deities and that are different sizes and types. It replicates the idea of asymmetric duality, and provides a "story" for why there'd be a god with an evil motive at the outset--envy because it's the dimmer star, pride because its the bigger brighter star. There could be a mythic moment where the antagonist god is stripped of their solar nature that serves as a just-so story (a true one) for why there used to be a second sun but it disappeared at some moment in the past.

Three and a Half, in turn the "current" form of the antagonist god could be something like a gas giant with a rogue orbit, or a distant second moon that heralds bad stuff (see talk of Nibiru). Like, imagine Earth's Moon, but with a giant bullseye-shaped impact crater--so big it looks like the moon should just crack apart--that looks like a bloodshot eyeball always glaring at the world. Except it travels in vast ellipse and there are years where it just creeps closer and closer, staring at the world, until the climax of its orbital cycles where it eclipses both the sun and the moon. And, being a supernatural moon, it somehow avoids collision with celestial objects even when it should collide, and it's effects as it approaches the world are more about bad omens and more frequent supernatural disasters than gravitational pull...but they also say the moon is hollow and the crater the gateway to the Hells....

Four, the antagonist needs a motive, and I've decided with the existing traits (selflish, controlling, secretive) and suggested alignment (LE or NE) that this motive is narcissism and a need for control: a cosmic abusive parent. The antagonist god feels he knows better than anyone else; resents all criticizes or attempts at collaboration; he views creation...including deities and lesser beings with free will...as beneficiaries of his singular greatness who "deserve it" if they're harmed by his creations or if they question his motives. He sits on the cusp of LE/NE because he loves order as a means, not as an end unto itself, and will not be told when to stop. In creating a world for living beings he secretly builds in things that will cause problems and suffering, while lying to his fellow creator gods about his motives and playing the heroic patriarch who deserves praise and can never be contradicted. This feels to me like a motive that would do for Asmodeus, were he to get onto the ground floor of making and world and the people that occupy it...or a unique setting-specific god.

Four and a half, Eventually he gets outed but continues to play the part of a stern parent who "knows best." At each stage of creation--of the local planar system; of the Material world-system; of sapient, souled beings--he's added elements that make things worse, or simply for his amusement, but presents them as "necessary"...because life should be a challenge, separate the wheat from the chaff, "I had to do this bad thing because you made me"...there's always a reason his selfishness is actually "justice" or "the right thing." Depending on how you want to play it, he can be completely cast out--either alone or taking along evil- and law- leaning gods who sympathize or are his family--or linger as an uncomfortable presence in the main pantheon. The second option is dark...the antagonist god has successfully implanted so many problems in his creation that the rest of the pantheon can't completely discard him. Sometimes they have to play his game...give him deference...to get him to solve a problem (that, like, 80% of the time he created).

If it's just Asmodeus, it's like this:

version 1: if the goddess of Destruction is "intelligent" (as opposed to my story where she's pure fury, no nuance) then you can have a story like: the goddess of Creation begins to make the world by creating a solar deity, and the goddess of Destruction plays like she genuinely wants to participate "contributes" her own solar deity...except she hasn't created a god, but concealed Asmodeus and literally smuggled him into the cosmos. Devil-worshippers invariably worms its way into mortal worlds, but generally devils aren't present in the inception phase...so the Prince of Hell exploits a unique opportunity to lace this world-system with his ideas and things that reflect his want.

version 2: if the goddess of Destruction is just embodied fury and doesn't plan, then Asmodeus slips into the young, sunless creation because Destruction literally knocks a hole in the cosmos. He doesn't conceal that he is from outside the world-system, but still assumes the role of a solar-deity and participates in creation. I kind of like this version because I like the idea of Asmodeus playing the mentor to the "young" solar deity, and the conflict starts when the pantheon begins to understand that their patriarch figure has been deceiving them all along.

I don't like about it being Asmodeus Himself: that's a character with pre-existing imagery, motives, and alliances, and his inclusion from-the-start is going to pull the setting into the orbit of that pre-existing material. I'd prefer to construct something that hits the same themes but is allowed to have its own twists and drives without immediately being hooked in the high intrigue of the Planes, and where I can invent more of the imagery and the "stories" that define the character. Specifically, I like the idea of a failed solar deity and the image of an antagonist who does not "fall" but mostly succeeds in their malfeasance.

The story I don't have yet is how the antagonist comes into being if it's not Asmodeus. I've got ideas, but I need to do errands and eat.

[Max_Killjoy]

Heh. Just like how amoeba and elephants are made of the same building blocks, but end up very different.

Belated Edit: I should make it clear that I intend no comparison of our respective world-building efforts to amoeba or elephants, in any direction. Sometimes things are clear in my head but when put into words...not so much.

It's why I'm not particularly perturbed by "formulaic" fiction, as long as it's implemented well. There just aren't that many building blocks out there that actually hang together.

I didn't take it that way, but I appreciate the belated clarification.

Choices:
_{(Sorry, I explain what I'm doing because it clarifies my thought process, and also because I want anyone reading to have the option of stealing the parts if they find them entertaining)}

This is a great exchange (you and OP) to read in detail.


~~~~

As an aside, if either of you get a chance, take a look at this, and let me know what you think.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...1#post23773211

[Max_Killjoy]

I'll get back to you on the pantheon as a whole.

Returning to the subject of ILR/Asmodeus. Okay, given the alignment you assigned him (LE), the ambivalence about whether he's the established Asmodeus of Planescape, and the general Satan-y vibe...he's The Antagonist, the figure that is deeply engaged with the world system but doens't have compassionate or altruistic goals. Where Destruction exists external to the world-system and just wants everything gone, this figure wants to total control over the world-system for...what have you.

Your imagery and reference choices suggest these traits:

- he's a being formed early in the process of creation, with a hand a great deal of the making the world, not a being that "corrupts" existing creations.
- because of the pantheon's genealogical order, his rivalry is with the solar deity...brother-brother or father-son
- because he's LE and an Asmodeus expy, an emphasis on control rather than total destruction
- because you describe a "Fall" scenario...a being that stands apart from the rest of the pantheon, rather than being outlier that is nonetheless part of the pantheon?
- driven by pride and jealousy
- a deceiver and a manipulator

Choices:
_{(Sorry, I explain what I'm doing because it clarifies my thought process, and also because I want anyone reading to have the option of stealing the parts if they find them entertaining)}

One, I've already been doing a thing where there's dualism, but the dualism is asymmetrical. I think it would be cool to replicate that idea over and over through the layers of mythology. Basically, the cosmos is a series of tafl games rather than a chess match. So the solar deity and the antagonist deity start as brothers in the order of creation, but are neither equal or opposite in power and portfolio.

Two, I think it's cooler if this being actually makes stuff and assembles the world while being evil rather than yet another "...and then they fell, and could only corrupt creation" story. The idea of creation beginning with deceit...that there was hidden trick...is fun. I associate LE alignment with abuse of power and authority and the invention of structures that facilitate abuse of power and authority...it is a constructive kind of evil, similar to Ialbadoath, the Gnostic Demiurge. I especially like this idea because I can envision the asymmetrical relationship: the solar deity bursting with power and enthusiasm and good will, and the antagonist as the ideas man who creates the schematics but also is working an angle.

Three, I like the idea that this antagonist is some other kind of celestial body, just because I think it's fun and I like the idea of a sobriquet like "The Failed Sun" being out there. I like the idea of binary star solar deities and that are different sizes and types. It replicates the idea of asymmetric duality, and provides a "story" for why there'd be a god with an evil motive at the outset--envy because it's the dimmer star, pride because its the bigger brighter star. There could be a mythic moment where the antagonist god is stripped of their solar nature that serves as a just-so story (a true one) for why there used to be a second sun but it disappeared at some moment in the past.

Three and a Half, in turn the "current" form of the antagonist god could be something like a gas giant with a rogue orbit, or a distant second moon that heralds bad stuff (see talk of Nibiru). Like, imagine Earth's Moon, but with a giant bullseye-shaped impact crater--so big it looks like the moon should just crack apart--that looks like a bloodshot eyeball always glaring at the world. Except it travels in vast ellipse and there are years where it just creeps closer and closer, staring at the world, until the climax of its orbital cycles where it eclipses both the sun and the moon. And, being a supernatural moon, it somehow avoids collision with celestial objects even when it should collide, and it's effects as it approaches the world are more about bad omens and more frequent supernatural disasters than gravitational pull...but they also say the moon is hollow and the crater the gateway to the Hells....

Four, the antagonist needs a motive, and I've decided with the existing traits (selflish, controlling, secretive) and suggested alignment (LE or NE) that this motive is narcissism and a need for control: a cosmic abusive parent. The antagonist god feels he knows better than anyone else; resents all criticizes or attempts at collaboration; he views creation...including deities and lesser beings with free will...as beneficiaries of his singular greatness who "deserve it" if they're harmed by his creations or if they question his motives. He sits on the cusp of LE/NE because he loves order as a means, not as an end unto itself, and will not be told when to stop. In creating a world for living beings he secretly builds in things that will cause problems and suffering, while lying to his fellow creator gods about his motives and playing the heroic patriarch who deserves praise and can never be contradicted. This feels to me like a motive that would do for Asmodeus, were he to get onto the ground floor of making and world and the people that occupy it...or a unique setting-specific god.

Four and a half, Eventually he gets outed but continues to play the part of a stern parent who "knows best." At each stage of creation--of the local planar system; of the Material world-system; of sapient, souled beings--he's added elements that make things worse, or simply for his amusement, but presents them as "necessary"...because life should be a challenge, separate the wheat from the chaff, "I had to do this bad thing because you made me"...there's always a reason his selfishness is actually "justice" or "the right thing." Depending on how you want to play it, he can be completely cast out--either alone or taking along evil- and law- leaning gods who sympathize or are his family--or linger as an uncomfortable presence in the main pantheon. The second option is dark...the antagonist god has successfully implanted so many problems in his creation that the rest of the pantheon can't completely discard him. Sometimes they have to play his game...give him deference...to get him to solve a problem (that, like, 80% of the time he created).

If it's just Asmodeus, it's like this:



I don't like about it being Asmodeus Himself: that's a character with pre-existing imagery, motives, and alliances, and his inclusion from-the-start is going to pull the setting into the orbit of that pre-existing material. I'd prefer to construct something that hits the same themes but is allowed to have its own twists and drives without immediately being hooked in the high intrigue of the Planes, and where I can invent more of the imagery and the "stories" that define the character. Specifically, I like the idea of a failed solar deity and the image of an antagonist who does not "fall" but mostly succeeds in their malfeasance.

The story I don't have yet is how the antagonist comes into being if it's not Asmodeus. I've got ideas, but I need to do errands and eat.

While taking some inspiration from the Asmodeus that's developed for D&D is fine... I agree that unless one really wants that particular entity with all implications, it's better to at the very least file off the name.


For the planet, there is the example that Pluto and Neptune won't ever collide despite their orbits crossing, because they're in orbital resonance. So a small enough planet in a "good enough for fantasy" resonance could be on an orbit that takes it between say a Venus-like distance and a Mars-like distance, without ever hitting the world of the game's setting. Not sure if it makes for quite as ominous a visual, but there would be times when it would be more than a "point" in the sky.


I also like the idea of this Adversary figure being too entangled in creation to just kick out, so it's effectively those tense family dinners. Maybe "Adversary" is the only one who can keep "Destruction" in check at certain key points in the cosmic cycle?

[MonkeySage]

While he plays much the same role that Asmodeus plays, I have given him a different name in setting- everyone calls him Ilrune (hence his abbreviation ILR :) ). I'm considering how he might get his celestial motif here, since ILR is not a God of Fire- infact, he's a being of ice. Perhaps a bright comet, one associated with such evil omens? Astrology is actually a pretty big deal for this setting, and I've been working on all kinds of stuff just for that. I even had my players pick a birth date from the calendar I made for the game, and assigned each of them a zodiac!


Well, going with the ice theme, his layer of Hell is completely frozen over, with rocks blasted apart by freezing winds, lakes frozen solid, jagged towers of ice, and the entire layer is completely dark. It makes the cold of other layers look welcoming by comparison.

I have been wondering about his status as a proper deity, rather than a powerful but not truly divine being. I think by removing his status as a true deity, and making him an archdevil, like his name-sake, I could reemphasize his cunning as the real danger, rather than his power. And as you say, make him an ideas man.

You've pinned him down pretty well!

[Max_Killjoy]

While he plays much the same role that Asmodeus plays, I have given him a different name in setting- everyone calls him Ilrune (hence his abbreviation ILR :) ). I'm considering how he might get his celestial motif here, since ILR is not a God of Fire- infact, he's a being of ice. Perhaps a bright comet, one associated with such evil omens? Astrology is actually a pretty big deal for this setting, and I've been working on all kinds of stuff just for that. I even had my players pick a birth date from the calendar I made for the game, and assigned each of them a zodiac!


Well, going with the ice theme, his layer of Hell is completely frozen over, with rocks blasted apart by freezing winds, lakes frozen solid, jagged towers of ice, and the entire layer is completely dark. It makes the cold of other layers look welcoming by comparison.

I have been wondering about his status as a proper deity, rather than a powerful but not truly divine being. I think by removing his status as a true deity, and making him an archdevil, like his name-sake, I could reemphasize his cunning as the real danger, rather than his power. And as you say, make him an ideas man.

You've pinned him down pretty well!

I know it's not typical of D&D's stated and implied cosmology, but you don't have to have a hard and fast binary on "deity, not deity".

Well, to be fair, D&D has long had Llolth, who pretty much covers that line with web, forces it to submit, assassinates it, and then pretends it was never there.

So, not!Asmodeus can be both, and neither. The deity I linked in my post above, for other reasons, blurs the line herself.

Can he be worshipped? Does he gain from it at all? Can he "bless" Clerics with his power?

[Yanagi]

For the planet, there is the example that Pluto and Neptune won't ever collide despite their orbits crossing, because they're in orbital resonance. So a small enough planet in a "good enough for fantasy" resonance could be on an orbit that takes it between say a Venus-like distance and a Mars-like distance, without ever hitting the world of the game's setting. Not sure if it makes for quite as ominous a visual, but there would be times when it would be more than a "point" in the sky.

Even though I'm using science-y language, I'm not at all trying to describe a "realistic" system of celestial bodies or gravity. I'm trying to capture a feel of something terrible that visits the world, regularly, that is a physical object in the sky but is also a supernatural visitation and maybe also a hole in reality. The "path" of the moon/gas planet is literally meant to not make sense in terms of orbital dynamics or gravity; it is inherently supernatural. The idea of a moon that's an accusing eye that approaches the world slowly, over years--it's "glare" always facing toward the world--is meant to be ominous.

If I'd gone with gas planet rather than a moon, it would have a Eye-shaped hurricane like Jupiter...except the hurricane moves like a pupil tracking an object.

(Damn. I like that "gas planet" better than moon now)

The other imagery-trail I'm following is: societies with solar deities especially dread eclipses, so having The Thing What Causes The Big Eclipse being the Antagonist has resonance with every story where something tries to eat the sun. This manifestation of the Antagonist does not cause an eclipse because it's obeying laws of motion, but because he's a mean bastard that's decided to do something scary and punitive on a regular schedule.

I also like the idea of this Adversary figure being too entangled in creation to just kick out, so it's effectively those tense family dinners. Maybe "Adversary" is the only one who can keep "Destruction" in check at certain key points in the cosmic cycle?

What I was thinking was this: on one hand, he's a problem-solver when Destruction's random smashing kicks something loose in cosmos. But on the other, sometimes it turns out he created the problem precisely so it builds to a point that the other gods have to placate him so he'll help fix it.

...and he's been pulling this since the first second of creation. Create a problem, get hired to create the solution. Make someone sick so you can prove you love them by nursing them back to health. Late in the game, the rest of the pantheon knows he does this, and that there's old "problems" he setting into motion that will pop up in the future, but they still have to ask for help....

I'm considering how he might get his celestial motif here, since ILR is not a God of Fire- infact, he's a being of ice. Perhaps a bright comet, one associated with such evil omens?

So I just mentioned "gas giant" and I have this compromise position (you can ignore me, it's your setting): what it means to be "failed sun" is that his physical embodiment is a frozen mass of hydrogen and other gases (the sort of stuff start ignite with fusion). Imagine a green-and-grey Neptune, except there's a swirling red hurricane (like Jupiter's red spot) whipping around in the atmosphere.

It travels the same ellipse, causes the same eclipse, creepily acts like an eyeball...and is also so supernaturally cold that (1) nothing changes in the planet's makeup even as it approaches the Sun, (2) its proximity every X years causes a kind of completely-unnatural winter where it's not just unusually cold, but...magic freezes into solid matter, and words spoken aloud condense and settle on surfaces like frost.

Well, going with the ice theme, his layer of Hell is completely frozen over, with rocks blasted apart by freezing winds, lakes frozen solid, jagged towers of ice, and the entire layer is completely dark. It makes the cold of other layers look welcoming by comparison.

See, this is why "frozen gas giant" needs to be on the table.

No visibility. Constant ice storm. Gas-solidifying cold. It there even a true core? There's a few impossible sky islands, and few brutalist structures sealed so tight that the ice can't penetrate, the few nightmarish occupants trying to chain together larger chunks so that the few perches aren't whipped about and lost....

I have been wondering about his status as a proper deity, rather than a powerful but not truly divine being. I think by removing his status as a true deity, and making him an archdevil, like his name-sake, I could reemphasize his cunning as the real danger, rather than his power. And as you say, make him an ideas man.

Doing Planescape stuff I've just given up on trying to do relative measurement of power between deities and things that function like deities, but in general an archdevil is a devil that controls a whole layer...which means being stronger than a many gods, especially when on home territory. A manipulative, cynical creator god is a comparative rarity, as is a "maker" deity that sabotages what he makes, but that's the standard playbook for devils and 'loths. Also, prideful manipulative devil with a extra-cold layer is Mephistopheles controlling Cania.

One argument for keeping him some kind of deity is that as an Adversary Deity he can have worshipers and followers that both do his bidding and come up with their own schemes, making his machinations relevant to player characters at any level. Also, he's a good progenitor for LE/LN/NE deities and beings in the settings. In turn his authoritarian-parent ethos is going to translate down to mortals in ways that aren't immediately negative...and since his specific thing is manipulating people to receive praise, his entire religion (or religions...because he's a grifty god and sectarian drama just makes him feel special) involves gaslighting worshipers to just keep giving more and expect less. In turn, his cold frozen afterlife is all about promising rewards if the petitioners just "do better"....