The Dark One or Redcloak?

[Goblin_Priest]

Of note:

[QUOTE=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commune.htm]Divination
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF, XP
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

You contact your deity—or agents thereof —and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no. (A cleric of no particular deity contacts a philosophically allied deity.) You are allowed one such question per caster level. The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. “Unclear” is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient. In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity’s interests, a short phrase (five words or less) may be given as an answer instead.

The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes. If you lag, discuss the answers, or go off to do anything else, the spell ends.
Material Component

Holy (or unholy) water and incense.
XP Cost

100 XP.[quote]

Commune costs XP, and grants barely anything.

When you look at the cross section between "gods that communicate" and "gods that have had clerics appear on the comic", what we see is that communication is not all that rare. You mentioned Hel-Durkon and Thor-Other Durkon. There's also Thrym instructing his clerics to ambush the Mechane, all the high priests getting the info on the Godsmoot, Odin's high priest getting the prophecy about Durkon, Hilgya being told by Loki where to find Durkon, and (outside the realm of clerics) Sangwaan getting visions from Rooster. And perhaps others I'm forgetting.

As for the question of why the Dark One would need Jirix as a messenger, one possible answer has been theorized: because communication must be initiated by the cleric, and Redcloak is afraid of being told he's doing something wrong. The Dark One may disapprove of things Redcloak is doing while still thinking it's not so bad that he should take away his spells when his goal is within sight.

Durkon's communication with Thor has been very limited. He needed to outright die before they had a good conversation. We have no idea how Loki communicated with Hilgya, same with the others. And there are all far older and more powerful gods than TDO.

There's a reason why even high level cleric magic offers little communication with gods: it's story breaking. "Oh, hol' up guys, lemme just give a quick call to my GOD and ask him what to do". Sure, that powerful gods may have powerful messengers is one thing, but direct communication for all clerics? Nonsense.

I don't dislike the suggestion that maybe contact is possible, but needs to be cleric-initiated, and that RC is just too afraid to do so. Has many merits.

Psionics is SF style magic kludged into Swords and Sorcery genre. (Kask and Gygax confirmed this in an interview some years ago). It's no surprise that it often has a "does not quite fit" feel to it, though 3.5 went a long way to trying to make it a better fit.

A point made further by another poster:
If all worshippers of TDO perish, doesn't he lose food/power? Thor explained the deity food pyramid here.
Belief, worship, dedication souls.
He loses 3 of 4 sources of nourishment if the world is destroyed.

It stands to reason that TDO isn't aware of the sheer number of failed universes, and of the fate of lesser/newer gods in the process of world re-creation. He might not be so open to it if he knew. Though discounting the fact that he'd probably not survive, as he doesn't know that, recreation has benefits that aren't available in this current world, such as fixing the monstrous (particularly goblinoid) races. The +1 level adjustment for hobgoblins being mentioned in SoD, for example. That's a kind of systematic injustice that you can't undo without going back to the drawing board. He could very well think "well, millions will die when we undo the world, but it will save countless for aeons to come in the next."

[Fyraltari]

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Hel is the current chapter's antagonist. Thor is an ally. Showing them does not alter the story in the way that showing TDO would, as putting the spotlight on TDO would cast shade on RC.

Durkon* was the main antagonist, not Hel. Their relationship is exactly analoguous to Redcloak and the Dark One's. For example, Red's exposition talk to Jirix about why he was torturing O-Chul could very well have been done with the Dark One without diminishing Red's stature within the narrative.

We've seen very few gods talk to their followers. None as much as Hel, which may or may not be thanks to her having personally created Durkon*'s soul. Durkon-Thor communication was largely limited. Got any other examples? After all, by D&D RAW, spells to contact deities are fairly high level, and provide fairly crappy communication. Gods being able to have direct casual conversation with their clerics is far more likely to be the exception rather than the norm. Again, case in point with the message via Jirix. Why would TDO tell Jirix to tell Redcloak something if he could just tell RC not to screw things up himself? There's no compelling reason to believe TDO can communicate more than he does.

hroþila covered the other examples. As for why the Dark One would use Jirix, well he was there and headed for Redcloak anyway and the message wasn't particularly urgent.

That's just your interpretation of it. In the webcomic, there has been several examples of him getting partly past that, and sticking it up to Xykon.

Are you serious? Redclaok still looks at his reflection saying "It will be worth it, you'll see". He is not over anything he still refuses to acknowledges he was wrong to ally with the lich.

And with the conquest of Gobbotopia, he would have plenty of stuff to rationalize his sunk cost. "Teaming with Xykon was necessary, because it allowed us to make enough progress to get us to this point where we don't need him anymore".

Founding Gobbotopia is not why he did what he did and he knows it.

Could he have hired Zz'dtri? Really?

Yes? He already hired the Linear Guild once. Zzd'tri is a hig-level arcane spellcaster who likes money and is much more stable and unassuming than Xykon, how hard do you think it would be to convince him to switch team?

All we know is that he did not hire another spellcaster, and we have not been shown any other high level caster under his command. You take this to conclude that he doesn't want another spellcaster. I take this to conclude that he can't use another spellcaster. To each his own conclusions from limited evidence. "We haven't seen any high level arcane casters under RC because there aren't any" seems a simpler solution than "We haven't seen any high level arcane casters under RC, but there are some, and he just refuses to use them", to me.

This despite an entire book centered of Redcloak concluding on Redcloak caving in to a character telling him he will never be free of him? You really think that Redcloak getting over that would happen without any fanfare? We know there are high-level evil spellcasters about (Zz'dtri, Miron, arguably Grubblewigler, Ydranna if she's still alive, the Ancient Black Dragon) and Gbbotopia is a continental power while Redcloakis the High Priest of an evil god, if he wanted to get in touch with one he could have.

Thor cares about the world. TDO cares about the goblins. Both are willing to risk existence to save what they care about.

Again Thor's efforts are directing towards preventing the end of existence while the Dark One's actions make the prospect more and more likely, these are not analoguous. Also we've seen Thor do his best to rescue the dwarves from Hel when the Dark One is confortable sending the goblins to their deaths and enabling their murderer. One cares, who does not.

Trolley dilemma, then? Maybe he prefers steering the trolley into rolling over a few goblins instead of having it run over a whole lot of them. Xykon offers an end to the cycle of genocide. As one leader of a prominent occidental nation supposedly once said, "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch.".

Except he's very not their son of a bitch, since he is actively killing them. Ditch him and get someone else.

On the account of high level characters being extremely rare in this setting?

Rare maybe, but not extremely, the Order has run in at least a dozen. Also I'd need your source on the what level is required to cast the spell and why it would be egregious for soemone other than Redcloak and Xykon to reach it. Kepp in mind Redcloak was going at it long before he got to high levels.

Hey, I'm just spilling quotes on this one. Though, again, if you present a benevolent leader with the trolley dilemma, what do you expect him to do?

The Dark One is evil, that's confirmed in comic. He isn't benevolent, words have meaning.

He killed a lot of paladins that could have helped the defenses otherwise. Without his presence, Miko wouldn't have shattered the gem, and so the ghost martyrs wouldn't have been defeated. His presence focused many of the Order away from the outer walls. And that's just what we saw on-screen during the battle.

There was also the "before battle". He made sure that the sentries did not alert the city of the incoming army.

After the battle, remarks were made about Gobbotopia's readiness (or not) for RC and Xykon's departure.

Many points were made about Xykon's contributions to this conquest, even if we didn't see him flying above the defenders casting a bunch of chain lightnings against numberless defenders.

Point concede for the watchtowers but most of those paladins were small fries and Redcloak and Xykon killed a huge number of hobgoblins. The Only member of the Order who left the walls because of Xykon was Roy.

EDIT:

Of note:
Commune costs XP, and grants barely anything.

Your quote is broken.

Durkon's communication with Thor has been very limited. He needed to outright die before they had a good conversation. We have no idea how Loki communicated with Hilgya, same with the others. And there are all far older and more powerful gods than TDO.

I really doubt Dvalinis more powerful than the Dark One. I also doubt it takes much power to create a magic video call, at least not on a divine scale where a 9-th spell slot is considered "a drop or so" of the Dark One's power.

There's a reason why even high level cleric magic offers little communication with gods: it's story breaking. "Oh, hol' up guys, lemme just give a quick call to my GOD and ask him what to do". Sure, that powerful gods may have powerful messengers is one thing, but direct communication for all clerics? Nonsense.

Nobody said all Clerics. Redcloak is the High Priest and his main agent, that deserves special treatment.

I don't dislike the suggestion that maybe contact is possible, but needs to be cleric-initiated, and that RC is just too afraid to do so. Has many merits.

It does.

[CriticalFailure]

This is kind of off topic but it makes you wonder... When it comes to the genre/world/plot awareness that exists in this universe, Redcloak seems to be aware that he is in the villain role, as does Xykon. Xykon knows he's in the role of "super duper evil big bag guy without redeeming characteristics" and loves it, and they both know that Redcloak is motivated by "evil for a good cause crap," but do you think they are aware when it comes to the whole self aware stick figures thing that Redcloak seems to specifically fit into the role of "tragic villain?" It also made me wonder if Elan, being much more aware of dramatic conventions, will end up realizing that and somehow using the difference in dramatic conventions between the "unfathomably evil overlord villain" and the "tragic villain" to the Order's advantage somehow?

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Hmm... well, Elan might see it if he had more exposure to Team Evil, but he hasn't. He wasn't in Azure City while Redcloak was in charge like Haley was, and she probably didn't think about it enough to notice. Even if Elan had occasion to see Xykon and Redcloak's relationship and categorize it, he probably wouldn't abuse it for some strategic advantage. That's more Tarquin's thing.

Genre savvy or no, I think Redcloak's long past the point where he expects to survive this ordeal of his. For the sake of the plan, he's willing to die and he's willing to let the world end, which is good because those are the two most likely tropes his fate can fall into.

Also, re: Xykon:

Spoiler: More Brazen Theorizing

Show

What's the one thing that looks even better on an evil resume than ruling the whole damn world?

[factotum]

This is kind of off topic but it makes you wonder... When it comes to the genre/world/plot awareness that exists in this universe, Redcloak seems to be aware that he is in the villain role, as does Xykon.

I don't think either of them know they're villains, per se, but they *do* know they're Evil and are unapologetic about that. Redcloak, in particular, believes everything he's doing is for the greater good of the goblinoid peoples, even though he knows the means he's using are thoroughly Evil.

[Bulbo]

I got this feeling that the dark one is being tricked somehow. Once the gods get some purple from redcloak, they won't need the Dark One anymore.

[factotum]

I got this feeling that the dark one is being tricked somehow. Once the gods get some purple from redcloak, they won't need the Dark One anymore.

If it were Loki presenting this plan to Durkon, then yes, but Thor is Good--he's very unlikely to use another god's power and then discard them like a used sweet wrapper.

[Goblin_Priest]

"And so the good gods tricked the Dark One, foiled his plans, locked away the Snarl forever, and then everyone lived happily ever after, murdering goblinoids whenever they felt like it"

Would feel like a very cheap and unsatisfying ending.

Thor mentionned about patching up future rifts as they come. I think they'll need the Dark One every time they do that, and not just one spell slot from just now.

[Fyraltari]

I got this feeling that the dark one is being tricked somehow. Once the gods get some purple from redcloak, they won't need the Dark One anymore.

Thor being suddenly revealed as Evil, now that's a dumb twist.

[CriticalFailure]

Xylem and Redcloak both mention that heroes show up to fight their villainous plots; it’s pretty fair to say they are both aware of being evil and aware of being in the villain role.

With what I said about Elan, I was more speculating about what might happen when the order learns more about Team Evil. TE and OOTS currently don’t know much about each other, but it seems fairly likely that they will.

Durkon’s talk with Thor seems to be the first OOTS has heard about Redcloak being more than a particularly powerful minion.

[zimmerwald1915]

"And so the good gods tricked the Dark One, foiled his plans, locked away the Snarl forever, and then everyone lived happily ever after, murdering goblinoids whenever they felt like it"

Would feel like a very cheap and unsatisfying ending.

Sure - if the story was about Redcloak and not Roy Greenhilt.

[Fyraltari]

The goblins' situation not improving would be an unsatisfying ending.

[Keltest]

Sure - if the story was about Redcloak and not Roy Greenhilt.

Stories are as much about the villains as they are the heroes. Redcloak may not be the main character, but its unlikely that the problems that led to his "creation" will be left totally unaddressed.

[Goblin_Priest]

Stories are as much about the villains as they are the heroes. Redcloak may not be the main character, but its unlikely that the problems that led to his "creation" will be left totally unaddressed.

Indeed. A lot has been put into the display of the unfair and horrible treatment of goblinoids. Going back to their wanton genocide would not fit the ending of a morally Good quest/story.

What form this would take, though, I cannot say.

[CriticalFailure]

^^ yeah, the attitude towards goblins and subsequent goblinoid Plan and Redcloak seeking to complete it seem to be an integral part of the plot - Redcloak gets a whole book where he basically puts in motion the entire gate related plot after all. Not to mention it seems to be integral to the themes of the book.

Given that the creation of goblins in d&d/the stick universe just to be adventurer fodder is one of the overarching themes and basically instigated the whole gate plot, it seems unlikely the story will end without addressing it.

I mean, without the goblin thing there’s no plan, Redcloak doesn’t get his rapid promotion to high priest and doesn’t need an arcane caster, and the Order tracks down Xykon and either must defeat an elderly human sorcerer who doesn’t really have any grand evil schemes and just likes wreaking havoc, or they find Xykon already died of old age and they don’t have anything to actually do. The end.

[hroþila]

An occasional point of criticism however is that we barely see that part of the plot in the main comic, as most of it is contained within SoD (plus the semi-recent addition of HtPGHS). While personally I'm sure it'll be a crucial part of the next book, I'm not surprised if some readers don't consider it all that important.

[Goblin_Priest]

An occasional point of criticism however is that we barely see that part of the plot in the main comic, as most of it is contained within SoD (plus the semi-recent addition of HtPGHS). While personally I'm sure it'll be a crucial part of the next book, I'm not surprised if some readers don't consider it all that important.

It's the motivation for the villain's quest, which itself is the quest the heroes are on to stop. I'd have a hard time seeing how to dismiss it, even without the paid books. Though it might make sense if it takes more space in the next book, specifically to address the issue of those people not being quite in the loop about it.

Also, I think there's a strong parallel to do with How the Paladin Got his Scar. I don't think the moral of that story was meant to be "if O-Chul hadn't stood in the way, Azure City would still stand today". ;)

[B. Dandelion]

This is kind of off topic but it makes you wonder... When it comes to the genre/world/plot awareness that exists in this universe, Redcloak seems to be aware that he is in the villain role, as does Xykon. Xykon knows he's in the role of "super duper evil big bag guy without redeeming characteristics" and loves it, and they both know that Redcloak is motivated by "evil for a good cause crap," but do you think they are aware when it comes to the whole self aware stick figures thing that Redcloak seems to specifically fit into the role of "tragic villain?" It also made me wonder if Elan, being much more aware of dramatic conventions, will end up realizing that and somehow using the difference in dramatic conventions between the "unfathomably evil overlord villain" and the "tragic villain" to the Order's advantage somehow?

I don't think Redcloak sees himself as a "tragic" villain because he's convinced he's in the right. He does understand that he's a bad guy by the logic of the rules, but he may operate under a somewhat warped definition of evil anyway, since he defines it simply as being opposed to those "who choose to call themselves good". If you see "Good" and "Evil" as team jerseys, a term like "tragic villain" loses much of its meaning.

Xykon just views Redcloak's "evil but for a good cause" shtick as total crap that makes him a weakling. He's not exactly wrong.

I can't offhand think of a way for Elan to use something out of the "tragic villain" vs "complete monster" difference between them to their advantage, except that backstabbing between the two is probably guaranteed, even more than might be expected for a typical Big Bad and his second-in-command. He might be able to guess at Redcloak tricking Xykon somehow. Since Thor's already told Durkon that the goblin Plan is to send the Snarl to the gods rather than tame it, the Order could put two and two together there. He might also guess at Xykon having his own schemes against Redcloak. Hypothetically they might be able to drive a wedge between the two villains. Or maybe predict and stop one of the countermeasures from firing off.

[Gilded_Mage]

I believe the dark one would be hard to convince. I'm guessing when the party catches up to the villains in Azure City and explains to at least Redcloak, Xykon wouldn't probably care and would want to world to end and this is where we might get the epic final battle of Roy vs Xykon. I am willing to believe as long as the party promise and other government official to recognize goblins, hobgoblins and the such as standard race like of humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes, etc then he would be willing to help them. Since you know the world ending will put Redcloak's efforts to get goblins seen as equals would have been pointless.

[Angrith]

I believe the dark one would be hard to convince. I'm guessing when the party catches up to the villains in Azure City and explains to at least Redcloak, Xykon wouldn't probably care and would want to world to end and this is where we might get the epic final battle of Roy vs Xykon. I am willing to believe as long as the party promise and other government official to recognize goblins, hobgoblins and the such as standard race like of humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes, etc then he would be willing to help them. Since you know the world ending will put Redcloak's efforts to get goblins seen as equals would have been pointless.

Unfortunately, I doubt that Redcloak will just give up on The Plan that easily. Before he

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

murdered his brother

, sure he would move on fairly easily. Also, we've been shown that Redcloak acknowledges the possibility of snarling the world. He is "willing to be on the longshot" and sees the Dark One helping with the next creation as a satisfying plan B.

What Redcloak doesn't know, is that the Dark One probably won't survive until the next world. If he can be convinced of that, then maybe he has a chance at a change of heart.

[CriticalFailure]

What Redcloak doesn't know, is that the Dark One probably won't survive until the next world. If he can be convinced of that, then maybe he has a chance at a change of heart.

A change of heart and a mental breakdown.

[Goblin_Priest]

A change of heart and a mental breakdown.

Maybe, but not necessarily. I mean, all that's going on is basically a result of The Plan. If they get better conditions for the goblinoids without actually having to pervert a gate, but merely with the threat of doing so... that's pretty in line with what's being striven for. Basically, it's just one-upping it, replacing "I will take control of a gate and threaten to destroy the gods with it" with "I will threaten to take control of a gate and destroy the gods with it".

I also can't help but wonder where the planet in the rift will fit into all of this. Goblinoid utopia as part of the settlement deal?

[Fyraltari]

No it’s not. Thor would still do what he tries to do without Redcloak having done anything.

[CriticalFailure]

If they get better conditions for the goblinoids without actually having to pervert a gate, but merely with the threat of doing so... that's pretty in line with what's being striven for. Basically, it's just one-upping it, replacing "I will take control of a gate and threaten to destroy the gods with it" with "I will threaten to take control of a gate and destroy the gods with it".

I also can't help but wonder where the planet in the rift will fit into all of this. Goblinoid utopia as part of the settlement deal?

I think if he realizes The Plan as its understood now was not going to work he'll definitely have a mental breakdown related to everything he's done for Xykon.

Also wonder where the planet in the rift will fit in. I had wondered if TDO might get control of areas around the rifts but that doesn't deal with the planet.

I do think that characters will go to the world in the rifts and will get access to stuff made with green quiddity in there, resulting in some sort of final 5 quiddity solution.

[Rrmcklin]

I also can't help but wonder where the planet in the rift will fit into all of this. Goblinoid utopia as part of the settlement deal?

"Because remember kids, segregation is always the answer!" Even setting aside the bad messaging, if that actually were the planet in the Rifts' purpose, it would just be really lame and anti-climactic.

[CriticalFailure]

"Because remember kids, segregation is always the answer!" Even setting aside the bad messaging, if that actually were the planet in the Rifts' purpose, it would just be really lame and anti-climactic.

That's the primary reason I don't think the goblins will go to live in the rift world. Thematically I don't see how the final solution won't involve cooeration.

[LadyEowyn]

I think Redcloak and TDO will both be initially highly resistant to Thor’s idea, because Thor isn’t actually offering them anything. He’s offering them the chance to maintain a deeply unjust status quo. Moreover, Thor’s plan won’t happen because “keep patching the holes in reality indefinitely” isn’t a narratively satisfying solution.

The solution to the Snarl is going to be making TDO an equal partner in shaping the world, so that not just the Gate but the world is a four-quiddity construct and the Snarl can therefore never break out.

I can see both TDO and Redcloak ultimately agreeing with that (though not without some major anguish and self-reflection on Redcloak’s part), with Xykon being the main obstacle to accomplishing it. This lines up with Rich saying that Xykon is the main villain.

I agree that Xykon is well aware that Redcloak plans to double-cross him, but Xykon doesn’t know the nature of the double-cross. Xykon’s expecting Redcloak to try to seize the “ultimate power” of controlling the Snarl for himself; he has no idea that both the Plan and the Snarl are utterly useless to him, and he’ll be furious when he finds out.

[Peelee]

I think Redcloak and TDO will both be initially highly resistant to Thor’s idea, because Thor isn’t actually offering them anything.

While I agree with the first part, Thor is absolutely offering something; the fact that TDO already has an ultimate bargaining chip. If, for any reason, he abandons the plan, Sunk Cost Reddie would not react well, I'd wager.

[LadyEowyn]

TDO needs to use that bargaining chip, though. Which means not agreeing to Thor’s plan in its current state, but instead holding out for concessions before agreeing to assist.

The thing with the Sunk Cost Fallacy is that Redcloak doesn’t actually know of any alternatives to the Plan that will address goblinoids’ built-in metaphysical inequality. His attachment to the Plan is basically an unwillingness to walk away and accept the status quo - and the status quo should not and will not be accepted - as well as the less-justifiable unwillingness to ditch Xykon and gamble on being able find another high-level arcane caster.

Learning that there is genuine alternative to the Plan that doesn’t require Xykon - and that the Plan may not work at all - is going to hit him very hard, and I think it’s still up in the air how he’ll deal with it. Refusal is certainly a possibility, but it’s not the only one. Cooperation with the Order is also possible, because Redcloak really hates Xykon and wants to be rid of him as soon as possible.

[Rrmcklin]

TDO needs to use that bargaining chip, though. Which means not agreeing to Thor’s plan in its current state, but instead holding out for concessions before agreeing to assist.

The thing with the Sunk Cost Fallacy is that Redcloak doesn’t actually know of any alternatives to the Plan that will address goblinoids’ built-in metaphysical inequality. His attachment to the Plan is basically an unwillingness to walk away and accept the status quo - and the status quo should not and will not be accepted - as well as the less-justifiable unwillingness to ditch Xykon and gamble on being able find another high-level arcane caster.

Learning that there is genuine alternative to the Plan that doesn’t require Xykon - and that the Plan may not work at all - is going to hit him very hard, and I think it’s still up in the air how he’ll deal with it. Refusal is certainly a possibility, but it’s not the only one. Cooperation with the Order is also possible, because Redcloak really hates Xykon and wants to be rid of him as soon as possible.

I understand why Redcloak would view "walk away from the plan that has costs countless goblinoid lives" as equivalent to "accept the status quo" because that's one of the only things keeping him sane as he justifies going forward with it.

I don't understand how the readers would come to the same conclusion, which seems to be what you've said here, if I'm not mistaken. Though, you seem to be describing a much more optimistic view of the character of Redcloak than I have.

Because abandoning the Plan, in no way implies that he (or any of the others) have just accept the status quo - it just means they have to find something else to do. Which wouldn't be easy, obviously, you created a very glaring false dichotomy on what Redcloak's options actually are, and what they actually would be even without the information that we currently have.