Holy Symbols

[Goblin_Priest]

Just occurred to me that none of these vampire clerics should be able to cast their spells, because they don't have holy symbols of Hel!

Guess we'll just be handwaving that away, now, though. :P

[Fyraltari]

The Church of Hel seems holy the first thing a Cleric wears around their neck.
Prove otherwise.

[factotum]

I just read the Cleric description on the SRD and it didn't specify clerics need their holy symbol to cast spells, just to turn/rebuke undead?

[The Pilgrim]

The Holy Symbol is only really needed to turn/rebuke undead.
Hel is an evil deity and thus grats rebuke undead to her clerics.
All clerics of Hel are undead, as Hel can't make clerics among the living.

Therefore, Hel doesn't gives a Holy Symbol to her clerics, to prevent them from going blind for bolstering themselves.

[Mad Humanist]

The Holy Symbol is only really needed to turn/rebuke undead.
Hel is an evil deity and thus grats rebuke undead to her clerics.
All clerics of Hel are undead, as Hel can't make clerics among the living.

Therefore, Hel doesn't gives a Holy Symbol to her clerics, to prevent them from going blind for bolstering themselves.

Who would have guessed that Tarquin had such a dirty mind?

[Goblin_Priest]

I just read the Cleric description on the SRD and it didn't specify clerics need their holy symbol to cast spells, just to turn/rebuke undead?

Most cleric spells require the "divine focus".

Divine Focus (DF)

A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith.

If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Most cleric spells require the "divine focus".

Indeed. On the other hand, it is usually easy to desecrate a holy symbol of another religion to make it acceptable to your own. Usually, by breaking it or defiling it or both - say, take Thor's symbol, brake off half the hammer head, drop a few vampire blood drops, now it is a holy symbol that Hel I'm sure will find acceptable.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

Who would have guessed that Tarquin had such a dirty mind?

...Please tell me that’s sarcasm.

[factotum]

Most cleric spells require the "divine focus".

Ah, OK, I missed that bit.

Having said that--all the vampires we're currently seeing are ex-members of the Cult of Stone, right? Since they didn't have a deity, would they have had a holy symbol to start with? And I guess it's up to Hel what makes a valid divine symbol for her worship--maybe she considers the vampiric body itself to be a sign of faith!

[Fyraltari]

Blue robed Vampire’s host served Thor. And if the Creed of the Stone did not require a holy symbol I wonder why each of its member carries a lump of rock as a necklace.

[Kish]

Regardless of deity or lack thereof, no one can cast a spell that requires a divine focus without a divine focus.

(Note that some spells require a divine focus for one class but not for another--notably when they're on both the cleric and wizard/sorcerer lists--but no spell requires a divine focus for one cleric but not another.)

[hamishspence]

Complete Champion had a cantrip (orison) that allows a cleric to summon up a divine focus- presumably for these sorts of situations.

[Aveline]

For me as a non-player, this clarifies why Redcloak took the time to go get his backup holy symbol in the obviously-urgent situation of O-Chul and Darth V in the tower.

[Mad Humanist]

...Please tell me that’s sarcasm.

Actually I am not surprised that Tarquin thinks about sex a lot. However I did think he was too clever and sophisticated to make such a crude joke. I really should put this in the things I didn't notice but it sort of feels like I did not legitimately discover it.

Also if this digression from the OP's original question continues, then "Holy Symbol" will start to become a euphemism.

[Aveline]

Elan's interpretation of a holy symbol: (image link)

[Kish]

However I did think he was too clever and sophisticated to make such a crude joke.

He had to be interrupted to stop him from commenting directly on his son's girlfriend's breasts immediately after he was introduced.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He had to be interrupted to stop him from commenting directly on his son's girlfriend's breasts immediately after he was introduced.

Not to mention the alacrity with which he adopts "wash the gorilla" or something along those lines as an euphemism for sex.

Grey Wolf

[D.One]

Since Hel can only have undead clerics, her holy symbol will always be an undead (i.e. a darkened, desecrated) version of the symbol its cleric used in life.

[Goblin_Priest]

On second though, countering myself, I'm now not convinced that they have actually cast any spells that do require a divine focus. Symbol of Death doesn't. Dispel Magic doesn't. I can't recall off the top of my head all of the spells the vampire clerics used.

Oh wait, Durkon used Righteous Might, right? That needs a DF.

Indeed. On the other hand, it is usually easy to desecrate a holy symbol of another religion to make it acceptable to your own. Usually, by breaking it or defiling it or both - say, take Thor's symbol, brake off half the hammer head, drop a few vampire blood drops, now it is a holy symbol that Hel I'm sure will find acceptable.

Grey Wolf

Hard to say how things are ruled in the OotS-verse, but personally I'd rule against that in my games. A holy symbol, to me, should be specific to the god granting the powers, and not just a desecration of an opponent's symbol. It's more about representing the god specifically than pleasing him, and there's nothing about a descecrated rock that screams "Hel".

[woweedd]

Not to mention the alacrity with which he adopts "wash the gorilla" or something along those lines as an euphemism for sex.

Grey Wolf

Also, he’s a rapist.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Hard to say how things are ruled in the OotS-verse, but personally I'd rule against that in my games. A holy symbol, to me, should be specific to the god granting the powers, and not just a desecration of an opponent's symbol. It's more about representing the god specifically than pleasing him, and there's nothing about a descecrated rock that screams "Hel".

Note that all clerics of thor-turned-vampire-thralls have a black gem in their holy symbol, as opposed to the blue ones that Minrah, Tinna, Rogo, High Priestess Rubyrock, and Brother Sandstone use.

They're desecrated for hel, thanks to their dark energy and servitude to her (Durkon's immediately changed back when he was turned, and as it seems to be, the other clerics' did as well).

Presumably, the rocks that the Creed Of Stone vampire clerics use are similarly corrupted. This is why there's no question of their former gods/rocks of worship stopping to decide to not give them spells for the day.

The holy symbol is the link between the cleric and the god- So in lieu of having to go grab half a dozen Hel-specific symbols (uncommon, considering no one really worships her), her vampires instantly change their (gem)stone to be corrupted in her name.

It's representing her in the way that in corrupting the clerics' holy symbols symbolizes her gaining power over all as she welcomes in all the dwarf souls to power her throughout the next world's tenure.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, he’s a rapist.

Well, yes, but while "classy" and "rapist" are not mutually exclusive categories, they are also not particularly correlated. He is also a murderer, after all. And a massive egomaniacal, self-interested, egotistic, egoistic, selfish, self-seeking, self-regarding, self-absorbed, self-obsessed, self-loving, narcissistic, vain, conceited, proud, self-important a-hole. All of which can include both classy and crude individuals.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think the phrase you're looking for is "sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigot".

[Fyraltari]

Well, yes, but while "classy" and "rapist" are not mutually exclusive categories, they are also not particularly correlated. He is also a murderer, after all. And a massive egomaniacal, self-interested, egotistic, egoistic, selfish, self-seeking, self-regarding, self-absorbed, self-obsessed, self-loving, narcissistic, vain, conceited, proud, self-important a-hole. All of which can include both classy and crude individuals.

Grey Wolf

And he never once reported to the Redudancy Bureau of Redudancy, the fiend!

[D.One]

Well, yes, but while "classy" and "rapist" are not mutually exclusive categories, they are also not particularly correlated. He is also a murderer, after all. And a massive egomaniacal, self-interested, egotistic, egoistic, selfish, self-seeking, self-regarding, self-absorbed, self-obsessed, self-loving, narcissistic, vain, conceited, proud, self-important a-hole. All of which can include both classy and crude individuals.

Grey Wolf

And now I'm thinking of some of those RPG systens, like Numenera, where adjectives define some of the character's statistics.

[Peelee]

He had to be interrupted to stop him from commenting directly on his son's girlfriend's breasts immediately after he was introduced.

Not to mention the alacrity with which he adopts "wash the gorilla" or something along those lines as an euphemism for sex.

Grey Wolf

And don't forget calling a succubus a booby trap or reminiscing about his sexploits in the middle of a battle.

[Mordar]

Well, yes, but while "classy" and "rapist" are not mutually exclusive categories, they are also not particularly correlated. He is also a murderer, after all. And a massive egomaniacal, self-interested, egotistic, egoistic, selfish, self-seeking, self-regarding, self-absorbed, self-obsessed, self-loving, narcissistic, vain, conceited, proud, self-important a-hole. All of which can include both classy and crude individuals.

Grey Wolf

You forgot "...with delusions of grandeur" on the list.

- M

[ijuinkun]

Actually I am not surprised that Tarquin thinks about sex a lot.

Also, given that several of his many wives seemed to have been political nobodies, he probably married them for the sex rather than for politics or money.

[KorvinStarmast]

And now I'm thinking of some of those RPG systens, like Numenera, where adjectives define some of the character's statistics.

Yeah, I did as well.

And don't forget calling a succubus a booby trap or reminiscing about his sexploits in the middle of a battle.

Who could ever forget about giving their pet orangutang a bath?

Also, given that several of his many wives seemed to have been political nobodies, he probably married them for the sex rather than for politics or money.

I am bleeding due to how hard I have to bite my tongue to avoid an RL politics observation. Not your fault. *heads off to get alcohol, swabs, and such*

[JeenLeen]

On topic: I think a good point about the holy symbols, but probably (as noted) easy to desecrate one. I can also see an evil god accepting other holy symbols as part of their own, when twisted against the original cleric, sorta like a trickster god's cleric might use another god's to deceive about who they really serve. Not sure on the RAW for a given setting for those things, but seems cool and decent for the comic.

I think the phrase you're looking for is "sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigot".

Has he displayed hypocrisy?

He seems pretty straight-forward in his exploits, when not actively deceiving the country he's currently serving (well, controlling and pretending to serve) or conquering. While I suppose that is hypocrisy in the sense of pretending to be a servant while actually being the ruler, he's fairly straight about what he's doing to folk who matter narratively (which, to him, is folk who matter.)