Brainstorming: 3 PC Dark Sun party

[darkbard]

If you were to begin a 4E Dark Sun game that hews pretty closely to the spirit of the setting and rules set (a controversial topic itself, I am aware, but let's assume that means no Divine classes, feats, and powers, etc and also canonical PC races for the setting (no Warforged, Shardminds, etc.)), what 3 classes would you play that a) cover the 6 ability scores with at least a strong secondary stat for the class for SCs, b) are solid all-around contributors in and out of combat, making for an effective, cooperative party, and c) demonstrate some of the unique elements if the setting via the PCs?

[The Glyphstone]

Without strong memory of DS, I feel like two of the party members would need to be a halfling and a Thri-Keen.

There is a 4e Dark Sun campaign setting, are you using it?

[Marcloure]

If you are not using 4E Dark Sun Campaign Setting supplement, I recommend you to. They have suggestions about magic, race, and alteration to some rituals

[darkbard]

There is a 4e Dark Sun campaign setting, are you using it?

If you are not using 4E Dark Sun Campaign Setting supplement, I recommend you to.

Yes, I own the DSCS book. I'm looking to solicit other players' ideas about what might make an iconic 3 PC party as outlined above.

[ve4grm]

If you want things that are iconic to Dark Sun, I'd go with:

• Mul Battlemind (Con/Wis)
• Human Bard (Preserver, good at bluffing to hide their magic) (Cha/Int)
• Thri-Kreen Rogue (Dex/Str)

This way we get two of the iconic races, psionics, arcane magic, and bards (which have a unique place in DS). We also have a well-rounded party in terms of both ability scores (per your request) and roles.

We miss out on elemental/primal magic, half-giants (goliaths), halflings (which are difficult to incorporate in a group in DS).

If we had a 4th, I'd make a Druid to emphasize the primal/elemental magic. Probably Predator or Wrath.


An alternate option:

• Half-Elf Ardent (Cha/Con)
• Half-Giant (Goliath) Warden (Str/Wis)
• Elf Wizard (Int/Dex)

This gives us only one iconic race, but adds in primal/elemental magic. We lose out on bards, and the Wizard's two primary scores affect the same defence, giving reason to not max them both. Also, Wizard secondary scores don't do a lot, so Dex might suffer in general with this group.

Personally, I like the first group more, for a variety of reasons.

[Borris]

I'll add the following:

Thri-Kreen Fighter in hide armor (Str/Dex)
Mul Sentinel Druid (Wis/Con)
Human Warlock - Sorcerer-King Pact (Cha/Int)

Two iconic races, a bit of primal/elemental, a bit of arcane, with an appropriate warlock pact. No pure controller, but the druid can pick controller encounter and daily powers, and the warlock is pretty much a secondary controller. The sentinel's animal companion (or living zephyr) somewhat makes up for a lack of fourth character. The fighter can (should?) take the arena training fighter talent for extra Dark Sun.

And as mentioned before, all six ability scores are used once. Using class skills only, you can have a party that's very effective in Athletics, Nature, Insight, Perception, Heal, Endurance, Arcana, Bluff, History, Intimidate, Religion, or Streetwise.

[MwaO]

3 person parties kind of naturally lead themselves towards a hybrid kind of role for at least one PC. I'd do the following:
Str/Con Mul Warden
Int/Wis Human Psion|Warlord
Dex/Cha (Insert Dex/Cha race here, there are lots of 'em, or even just Dex race and take the Fake Skald feat) Bard|Executioner(Ninja)

Multiple PCs can heal, Warlord has a basic attack machine to use in the Bard|Executioner, Bard|Executioner is focused on poison, which is very on brand for Athas, etc...

[masteraleph]

3 person parties kind of naturally lead themselves towards a hybrid kind of role for at least one PC. I'd do the following:
Str/Con Mul Warden
Int/Wis Human Psion|Warlord
Dex/Cha (Insert Dex/Cha race here, there are lots of 'em, or even just Dex race and take the Fake Skald feat) Bard|Executioner(Ninja)

Multiple PCs can heal, Warlord has a basic attack machine to use in the Bard|Executioner, Bard|Executioner is focused on poison, which is very on brand for Athas, etc...

Wait a second- do you get chargekit bonuses on Echoing Weapon?

[MwaO]

Wait a second- do you get chargekit bonuses on Echoing Weapon?

You should. It is an independent damage roll that's part of the weapon attack and is not extra damage. But your DM could rule otherwise.

[darkbard]

Great responses, folks! Actually, in the back of my mind I was thinking that your Ishkara build (Unarmored/Unarmed Human Fighter|Sorcerer) might be perfect for the flavor of Dark Sun, MwaO, but Str|Cha throws a bit of a wrench into things...

[darkbard]

3 person parties kind of naturally lead themselves towards a hybrid kind of role for at least one PC. I'd do the following:
Str/Con Mul Warden
Int/Wis Human Psion|Warlord
Dex/Cha (Insert Dex/Cha race here, there are lots of 'em, or even just Dex race and take the Fake Skald feat) Bard|Executioner(Ninja)

Multiple PCs can heal, Warlord has a basic attack machine to use in the Bard|Executioner, Bard|Executioner is focused on poison, which is very on brand for Athas, etc...

Great responses, folks! Actually, in the back of my mind I was thinking that your Ishkara build (Unarmored/Unarmed Human Fighter|Sorcerer) might be perfect for the flavor of Dark Sun, MwaO, but Str|Cha throws a bit of a wrench into things...

To add to this: Upon reflection, I think Human Fighter|Sorcerer, Human Psion|Warlord, and Eladrin Bard|Executioner could work pretty well. Admittedly, I worry about this party having CON as, at best, tertiary; and Endurance scores being pretty important in Dark Sun, that may prove problematic. Perhaps there's a way to patch that with training from a MC feat combo.

Initially, I was a little worried about Hybrid characters suffering from a reduced number of starting trained Skills, but Human mitigates that somewhat, as do MC Feats and Themes (Ishkara, frex, picks up 2 trained skills for a total of 7 by late Heroic). For example, one could add Spirit Talker and Mending Spirit to the Psion|Warlord, picking up Nature training and a second Encounter heal.

Eladrin, while not exactly iconic for DS, do have a pretty cool story with the advent of 4E, which, really, has been my entry point to the setting (while I have some 1E/2E products, I never looked into the setting much back when they were initially released).

Thanks again, folks, for all the wonderful ideas!

[darkbard]

Hmmmm ... can one choose the Ninja Guild as a Hybrid Executioner?

[MwaO]

To add to this: Upon reflection, I think Human Fighter|Sorcerer, Human Psion|Warlord, and Eladrin Bard|Executioner could work pretty well. Admittedly, I worry about this party having CON as, at best, tertiary; and Endurance scores being pretty important in Dark Sun, that may prove problematic. Perhaps there's a way to patch that with training from a MC feat combo.

Initially, I was a little worried about Hybrid characters suffering from a reduced number of starting trained Skills, but Human mitigates that somewhat, as do MC Feats and Themes (Ishkara, frex, picks up 2 trained skills for a total of 7 by late Heroic). For example, one could add Spirit Talker and Mending Spirit to the Psion|Warlord, picking up Nature training and a second Encounter heal.

Eladrin, while not exactly iconic for DS, do have a pretty cool story with the advent of 4E, which, really, has been my entry point to the setting (while I have some 1E/2E products, I never looked into the setting much back when they were initially released).

Thanks again, folks, for all the wonderful ideas!

No problem. I'd note that the Spirit Talker feat gives a once per day +Wis to a skill check. Be trained in Endurance and you ought to make the checks.

[darkbard]

No problem. I'd note that the Spirit Talker feat gives a once per day +Wis to a skill check. Be trained in Endurance and you ought to make the checks.

A good point. I've been deliberating, though, between MC Shaman and MC Druid (Sentinel). It's a tough call! Any opinions?

Also, as much as I love your Ishkara build, I do really dig the suggestion of a Mul Warden for this trio! It may very well be the best fit.

[masteraleph]

As you already noted, Mending Spirit offers the possibility of gaining a per Encounter heal (and obviously if you have a short rest, it can be used then, too). And the Spirit can offer a bit of control, too, in occupying a space. I think that if you're choosing between Shaman and Sentinel MCs, that unless there's a Druid power you really want to powerswap for, Shaman is superior.

[darkbard]

Thanks for the response, masteraleph. Serpent's Cunning is a pretty tempting Druid powerswap, eh? Decisions, decisions!

Also, anyone have some rough ideas for how a Bard|Executioner build might come together?

[MwaO]

Thanks for the response, masteraleph. Serpent's Cunning is a pretty tempting Druid powerswap, eh? Decisions, decisions!

Also, anyone have some rough ideas for how a Bard|Executioner build might come together?

Echoing Weapon as a power, Charge kits as items. Drow's the crazy good race choice for this if refluffing is ok with Skulker of Vhaeraun. Have the poison feats from Assassin. Do a bunch of damage.

[darkbard]

Echoing Weapon as a power, Charge kits as items. Drow's the crazy good race choice for this if refluffing is ok with Skulker of Vhaeraun. Have the poison feats from Assassin. Do a bunch of damage.

Just playing around a bit in the CB, I came up with the following as a baseline. Future feats would include Sneak of Shadows (Sneak Attack, add Thievery trained), Venom Hand Master/Killer; Powers Echoing Weapon as suggested above; Charge kit items as well.

Any place this looks to go horribly wrong? I realize there are more optimized choices, Race and Theme, for example, but just looking to make a solid and flavorful characterer.

Spoiler

Show

======= Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======

Immeral, level 1 Eladrin, Assassin (Executioner)/Bard

Guild Attacks (Hybrid) Option: Red Scales (Hybrid)
Hybrid Assassin (Executioner) Option: Hybrid Executioner Will
Hybrid Bard Option: Hybrid Bard Reflex
Inherent Bonuses
Wandering Duelist (Wandering Duelist Benefit)
Theme: Athasian Minstrel

FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 10, CON 12, DEX 18, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 16

STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 10, CON 12, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 16

AC: 16 Fort: 11 Ref: 15 Will: 15

HP: 24 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +9, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Stealth +9, Streetwise +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS Arcana +4, Athletics +1, Dungeoneering +1, Endurance +2, Heal +1, History +4, Insight +1, Intimidate +7, Nature +1, Perception +1, Religion +2, Thievery +5

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Athasian Minstrel Feature: Poisoned Strike
Eladrin Racial Power: Fey Step
Assassin Attack: Poisoned Dagger
Assassin Attack: Quick Lunge
Bard Utility: Skald's Aura
Assassin Attack: Assassin's Strike :
Swap Daily For Poison Recipe
Bard Attack 1: Words of Gravity

FEATS Level 1: Skald Training

ITEMS Bloodroot Poison Leather Armor x1 Ki Focus Rapier x1 Dagger x3

[darkbard]

I had a little more time to play around in the CB today, making some minor changes to the initial build (swapping race to Elf; still not Drow/Skulker of Vhaeraun since I'm trying not to use Divine power source; Song of Serendipity as Bard AW) and leveling this up to 11th.

Questions: are there ways to make this build work with both poison and charge damage? Is there a better PP than Guild Executioner? Where else have I gone horribly awry here?

Thanks for any feedback.

Spoiler

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Lia - Copy, level 11
Elf, Assassin (Executioner)/Bard, Guild Executioner
Guild Attacks (Hybrid) Option: Red Scales (Hybrid)
Hybrid Assassin (Executioner) Option: Hybrid Executioner Will
Hybrid Bard Option: Hybrid Bard Reflex
Inherent Bonuses
Wandering Duelist (Wandering Duelist Benefit)
Theme: Athasian Minstrel

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 13, DEX 21, INT 11, WIS 13, CHA 19

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 12, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 16


AC: 24 Fort: 18 Ref: 26 Will: 25
HP: 75 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 18

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +15, Bluff +14, Diplomacy +14, Stealth +15, Thievery +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +6, Athletics +6, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +7, Heal +7, History +6, Insight +7, Intimidate +13, Nature +9, Perception +9, Religion +6, Streetwise +10

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Athasian Minstrel Feature: Poisoned Strike
Elf Racial Power: Elven Accuracy
Assassin Attack: Poisoned Dagger
Assassin Attack: Garrote Strangle
Bard Utility: Skald's Aura
Assassin Attack: Assassin's Strike
: Swap Daily For Poison Recipe
: Swap Second Daily For Poison Recipe
: Assassin's Strike (Additional Damage)
Bard Attack 1: Song of Serendipity
Bard Utility 2: Moment of Escape
Bard Attack 3: Echoing Weapon
Assassin Utility 6: Vanish
Bard Attack 9: Thunder Blade
Bard Utility 10: Mantle of Unity

FEATS
Level 1: Skald Training
Level 2: Sneak of Shadows
Level 4: Venom Hand Killer
Level 6: Light Blade Expertise
Level 8: Venom Hand Master
Level 10: Superior Reflexes
Level 11: Superior Will

ITEMS
Bloodroot Poison
Ki Focus x1
Rapier x1
Garrote
Dagger x6
Leather Armor x1
Carrion Crawler Brain Juice
====== End ======

[MwaO]

I'd look at putting Cunning Stalker and Improved Defenses in there.

Also, always Ninja Executioner — Poisonous Shuriken+Whirling Kusari-Gama are both very fun powers.

Charge kit is about Vanguard Weapons, Horned Helms, etc...they combine with poison and echoing weapon very well. At 11th, you likely should have 2 Bard encounter options.

[darkbard]

I'd look at putting Cunning Stalker and Improved Defenses in there.

Also, always Ninja Executioner — Poisonous Shuriken+Whirling Kusari-Gama are both very fun powers.

Charge kit is about Vanguard Weapons, Horned Helms, etc...they combine with poison and echoing weapon very well. At 11th, you likely should have 2 Bard encounter options.

Thanks for the response, MwaO! I asked this earlier, but can one Hybrid Ninja Executioner? Neither the CB nor the Compendium list it as an option.

What would you drop for Cunning Stalker and Improved Defenses? Venom Hand feats? Superior Will or Reflexes?

Yes, I haven't added any equipment yet. Originally, I was thinking Ki Focus Expertise, but then I realized the build doesn't make use of Implement powers as is.

Would you drop the additional damage to Assassin's Strike for a Bard Encounter power (especially considering staring CHA 16; admittedly mitigated by Elven Accuracy)? Which one?

No worries if you're too busy to comment further.

[MwaO]

Thanks for the response, MwaO! I asked this earlier, but can one Hybrid Ninja Executioner? Neither the CB nor the Compendium list it as an option.

"You choose a guild and gain the benefit of the Guild Attacks class feature, except that you choose only two of the at-will attack powers associated with your guild." That's it. Compendium/CB just don't list it as an option, similar to how they don't list the newer Monk Flurry of Blows as an option for hybrid monks. But Ninja is one of the guilds, so it qualifies.

What would you drop for Cunning Stalker and Improved Defenses? Superior Will or Reflexes?

Those two.

Would you drop the additional damage to Assassin's Strike for a Bard Encounter power (especially considering staring CHA 16; admittedly mitigated by Elven Accuracy)? Which one?

Lesser Flash of Distraction is very good. So is Lesser Dimensional Step.

[darkbard]

You're the best, man! Thanks!

Lesser Flash of Distraction is very good. So is Lesser Dimensional Step.

I was also thinking Prescient Warning is pretty good.

I have a vision of this trio as a previously reclusive noble priest of Kalak (Human Psion|Warlord/Sentinel/Noble Adept/Cloistered Priest) in Tyr at the time of Kalak's fall, with bodyguard (Mul Warden/Fighter/Guardian/Ivory Triangle-Beleagered Sentry) and favorite entertainer (this build you're helping me with) trying to make their way in the chaotic aftermath of the uprising. Would make a cool campaign beginning, I think.

[MinotaurWarblad]

To add to this: Upon reflection, I think Human Fighter|Sorcerer, Human Psion|Warlord, and Eladrin Bard|Executioner could work pretty well. Admittedly, I worry about this party having CON as, at best, tertiary; and Endurance scores being pretty important in Dark Sun, that may prove problematic. Perhaps there's a way to patch that with training from a MC feat combo.

Initially, I was a little worried about Hybrid characters suffering from a reduced number of starting trained Skills, but Human mitigates that somewhat, as do MC Feats and Themes (Ishkara, frex, picks up 2 trained skills for a total of 7 by late Heroic). For example, one could add Spirit Talker and Mending Spirit to the Psion|Warlord, picking up Nature training and a second Encounter heal.

Eladrin, while not exactly iconic for DS, do have a pretty cool story with the advent of 4E, which, really, has been my entry point to the setting (while I have some 1E/2E products, I never looked into the setting much back when they were initially released).

Thanks again, folks, for all the wonderful ideas!

Not to mention the fact that Con is in charge of healing surges, which are also VERY important in DS. The playtest module wiped multiple parties I played in, sans my Sorcerer-King pact ‘lock who ditched everyone in two of the games... Though even then, in one of those he got caught and killed by elves.

[darkbard]

Whirling Kusari-Gama [ ..] very fun powers.

So the kusari-gama kinda sucks as a weapon (+2 proficiency); thus I assume you mean the fun comes in as it's a poor man's Twin Strike, meaning each attack benefits from static modifiers? And I guess the reach is useful, and the AC bonus.

With all this in mind, I reckon Master at Arms is probably the best Expertise feat, allowing the PC to switch between rapier, shuriken, and k-g as a Minor.

Btw, can a Hybrid character swap both Dailies at level 5 for a poison, or does the 1 power from each class rule abide in this scenario?

[Highfeather]

So the kusari-gama kinda sucks as a weapon (+2 proficiency); thus I assume you mean the fun comes in as it's a poor man's Twin Strike, meaning each attack benefits from static modifiers? And I guess the reach is useful, and the AC bonus.

With all this in mind, I reckon Master at Arms is probably the best Expertise feat, allowing the PC to switch between rapier, shuriken, and k-g as a Minor.

Btw, can a Hybrid character swap both Dailies at level 5 for a poison, or does the 1 power from each class rule abide in this scenario?

Yes, the weapon is pretty bad, but it is indeed Twin Strike 'lite' with some control added (prone, add a Fighter MC or Hybrid for Dragging Flail to slide). You already know how to work with increasing static modifiers it seems, so it should come as no surprise that that particular at-will attack is somewhat underrated.

I would indeed go for Master at Arms, since the Kusari-Gama has two different weapon groups. It's not the most efficient juggling technique, but it's not bad. Shame the Hybrid Executioner doesn't get the Executioner's native weapon swapping class feature. You can always MC/Hybrid into an Arcane class for a swapping familiar though. Warlock is a popular option for Hybrid, but then you're not using Whirling Kusari-Gama nor Poisonous Shuriken. Though really, Dex/Cha as an Executioner/Sorcerer would still do wonders as a Striker for example.

As for the poisons... I don't know. The way the Hybrid Executioner is written is a total mess. The Hybrid Poison Use feature says "When you gain a daily attack power, you can instead opt to learn a poison recipe.". You can do that, but it doesn't change the general rule, which you might still violate. The general Hybrid rule is "If you have at least two powers in the same category (at-will attack, encounter attack, daily attack, or utility), at least one of those powers must come from each of your hybrid classes."

I have never thought about this, but from my reading, this creates an interesting problem. The main question is if this general rule ever kicks in...

This only works if the 1st level option can be a poison (i.e. if the first level daily counts as 'when you gain a daily attack power'), but because the Assassin poisons are not actually daily attack powers, you should be able to continue taking poisons. After all, the general Hybrid rule only kicks in once you have two Daily Attack powers, which you might never have. So yes, as long as you don't get more Daily Attack Powers, you may actually be able to fill all your slots with poisons.

Somebody do tell me if I'm parsing that wrong though. Similarly, I doubt any DM would rule that way. Hybrid Essential characters are an undeniable mess anyhow.

[darkbard]

you should be able to continue taking poisons. After all, the general Hybrid rule only kicks in once you have two Daily Attack powers, which you might never have. So yes, as long as you don't get more Daily Attack Powers, you may actually be able to fill all your slots with poisons.

Somebody do tell me if I'm parsing that wrong though. Similarly, I doubt any DM would rule that way. Hybrid Essential characters are an undeniable mess anyhow.

The CB certainly lets you continue with as many poisons as you like, though, as MwaO notes, the CB is notoriously erratic when it comes to certain functions.

Further, if one chooses poisons at L1 and L5, can one then powerswap for Knockout as the L9 Daily (presuming Sneak of Shadows, Adept Power) without taking a Bard Daily to that point?

Current thoughts as to Feat order:
L1: Bard of All Trades
L2: Master at Arms
L4: Cunning Stalker
L6: Venom Hand Master
L8: Sneak of Shadows
L10: Adept Power
L11: Improved Defenses
L12: Venom Hand Killer

And Powers:
L1: Poisonous Shuriken (Assassin AW), Whirling Kusari-gama (Assassin AW), Guided Shot (Bard AW), Assassin's Strike (Assassin E), Poison (Assassin D)
L2: Cloak of Shades (Assassin U)
L3: Echoing Weapon (Bard E)
L5: Poison (Assassin D) or Word of Mystic Warding (if required to take Bard here)
L6: Revitalizing Incantation(Bard U)
L7: Lesser Dimensional Step (Bard E)
L9: Thunder Blade (Bard D) retrained to Knockout (Rogue D) at level 10
L10: Mantle of Unity (Bard U)

Thoughts, anyone?

(Edit for further tinkering)

[MwaO]

The CB certainly lets you continue with as many poisons as you like, though, as MwaO notes, the CB is notoriously erratic when it comes to certain functions.

Yeah, I'd call that a mistake. Reasonably clear the intent is that a hybrid Ex|Something has to pick dailies from the two classes first, where poison is an acceptable choice for a hybrid Assassin choice. And no, you can't power swap until after you pick powers from your classes.

Whirling Kusari-Gama gets poison effects twice if you hit twice. Particularly in a Dark Sun game where people might not get a lot of items, this can make the damage add up.

[darkbard]

Whirling Kusari-Gama gets poison effects twice if you hit twice. Particularly in a Dark Sun game where people might not get a lot of items, this can make the damage add up.

Good points both! I've been trying to think about this build being as item independent as possible for that very reason. Charge stuff throws a wrench into that, of course. As does carrying bonus poison damage into attacks that don't have that keyword or make use of assassin poisons (presuming vanguard over spiderkissed weapon).

[masteraleph]

To the degree that Dark Sun DMs might let people pick their (fewer than usual) items, I think you'd devote the items in general to charge stuff. So my items (4 per tier) would probably look like:

Heroic:
Vanguard Weapon +1
Horned Helm (Heroic)
Iron Armbands
Badge of the Berserker (if you decide to go there)

Paragon:
Boots of the Mighty Charge
Thunderfist Ki Focus +3 (or +2 possibly w/o Badge of the Berserker)
Horned Helm (Paragon)
Iron Armbands (Paragon)

Epic:
Thundergod Weapon +5
Horned Helm (Epic)
Iron Armbands (Epic)
[Open]

That's a little frustrating, but it fits within the rubric of 4 items per tier and inherent bonuses. It gets you Thunder on all melee non-charge, and of course in Epic you get Thunder on Charge (and if you use Echoing Weapon then Thunder pops in on that damage roll as well), so you can take the Thunder +3/4 damage feat and maybe Echoes of Thunder also in Epic.

Also, I don't see an MC in there yet. It's pretty feat intensive, but I'd seriously consider MC Barbarian (which is pretty Dark Sun thematic anyways), Combat Virtuoso, and Powerswap for Storm of Blades (in Paragon) and of course Hurricane of Blades at 27. Reincarnate Champion for ED with Gnoll as a race and nuke the snot out of someone on a multiattack charge attack. You can also switch out from the normal powerswap in Epic over to Multiclass Mastery and pick up both the normal powerswap feat again and another one- maybe Savage Growl for something else.