Artificers should have prepared metamagic.

[Aquillion]

One thing that bothers me about the new artificer is that while the theme of "your spells are actually ad-hoc tinker devices" is cool, you specifically get no mechanical effects from it. Thinking further, I realized that Artificers would be a perfect place to put prepared metamagic (that is, metamagic you have to choose when preparing your spells, as opposed to the Sorcerer's choose-when-casting metamagic.)

Of course, their metamagic would be mostly different from the sorcerer's in other ways, too - they'd have different options, ones that suit their mechanical themes. One example might be a metamagic that gives a spell a flying drone delivery system - when you cast it, you release a mechanical flying insect or bird that zooms to a location within 60 feet and casts the spell from there.

Preparing a spell with artificer metamagic means you're stuck with the metamagicked version when casting it. You'd have a set amount of metamagic you can apply when preparing your spell (X 'points' based on your level and intelligence, with different metamagic costing different amounts to prepare); some of it might also require paying a higher-level spell slot (no upcast benefits.) This fits the "mechanical" theme of artificer spells, ie. you're modifying a device in advance as a trade-off for a particular purpose rather than being able to freely enhance them the way a sorcerer does.

Basically, this would give the artificer a bit more of a feel of invention and creativity rather than just using boxed effects, while being distinct enough from how Sorcerers use metamagic to be its own thing.

Of course, this could be something available to just an artificer subclass (making it reasonable to add via homebrew.) What do people think, though?

[Man_Over_Game]

One thing that bothers me about the new artificer is that while the theme of "your spells are actually ad-hoc tinker devices" is cool, you specifically get no mechanical effects from it. Thinking further, I realized that Artificers would be a perfect place to put prepared metamagic (that is, metamagic you have to choose when preparing your spells, as opposed to the Sorcerer's choose-when-casting metamagic.)

Of course, their metamagic would be mostly different from the sorcerer's in other ways, too - they'd have different options, ones that suit their mechanical themes. One example might be a metamagic that gives a spell a flying drone delivery system - when you cast it, you release a mechanical flying insect or bird that zooms to a location within 60 feet and casts the spell from there.

Preparing a spell with artificer metamagic means you're stuck with the metamagicked version when casting it. You'd have a set amount of metamagic you can apply when preparing your spell (X 'points' based on your level and intelligence, with different metamagic costing different amounts to prepare); some of it might also require paying a higher-level spell slot (no upcast benefits.) This fits the "mechanical" theme of artificer spells, ie. you're modifying a device in advance as a trade-off for a particular purpose rather than being able to freely enhance them the way a sorcerer does.

Basically, this would give the artificer a bit more of a feel of invention and creativity rather than just using boxed effects, while being distinct enough from how Sorcerers use metamagic to be its own thing.

Of course, this could be something available to just an artificer subclass (making it reasonable to add via homebrew.) What do people think, though?

I like this.

Maybe have it be a list of types of inventions that you can create.

Such as:

Grenade Modification: This Modification can only be prepared with spells of a range of Self that have a radius specified in the range (Such as Thunderwave) and a Duration of Instantaneous. When you cast the spell, you instead throw a small prepared object that releases the spell as if you cast it from its location. You can throw the object up to 30 feet away. You can use your Ready action to delay the throw and casting of the spell, but the spell is either spent or lost at the start of your next turn.

Armor Modification: This Modification can only be prepared with spells of a Duration of 1 hour or longer, and this Modification only applies if the spell only targets you. You cannot use this Modification for more than one spell at a time. Concentration checks to maintain the spell have Advantage. If the spell does not require Concentration, then the first time you cast the spell between each Long Rest refunds the Spell Slot you spent for it.

[stoutstien]

Check out this homebrew. The tinkering subclass does something close to this.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.red...smith_thunder/

[Meichrob7]

I think this would work really well for their next subclass, I know they're getting more and I'd love to see something a bit different. Theres a few subclasses that steal from another class (Bloodhunter steals from warlock, Wizard/Rogue can steal from wizard, Warlocks can steal from clearic's spell list) so it wouldnt be something totally unprecedented to have an artificer that basically stole the metamagic feature from sorcs.

[JackPhoenix]

I think this would work really well for their next subclass, I know they're getting more and I'd love to see something a bit different. Theres a few subclasses that steal from another class (Bloodhunter steals from warlock, Wizard/Rogue can steal from wizard, Warlocks can steal from clearic's spell list) so it wouldnt be something totally unprecedented to have an artificer that basically stole the metamagic feature from sorcs.

Bloodhunter is homebrew, wizard/rogue doesn't steal anything, because it *is* a wizard, and warlocks don't "steal" anything either, they get access to few specific spells through their patron choice, just as clerics do through domains, land druids do through the land choices, and paladins do through their subclasses.

There's a difference between getting access to few spells from a different list, and taking defining class feature like metamagic.

[Anderlith]

While the idea is not “bad”, I am against it. Certain classes have unique identities & it’s bad design to steal unique class abilities from other classes, especially when that’s pretty much the only thing that class is known for. It’s similar to saying there should be a rogue subclass that could Rage

[Aquillion]

Keep in mind that this would be a fundamentally different sort of metamagic (prepared vs. on-casting, and with different effects.) It wouldn't just have the Sorcerer's version the way, say, the EB has access to Wizard spells or a Bard can literally just have a Paladin's mount.

[Meichrob7]

Bloodhunter is homebrew, wizard/rogue doesn't steal anything, because it *is* a wizard, and warlocks don't "steal" anything either, they get access to few specific spells through their patron choice, just as clerics do through domains, land druids do through the land choices, and paladins do through their subclasses.

There's a difference between getting access to few spells from a different list, and taking defining class feature like metamagic.

I don’t really how saying “it IS a wizard” makes the rogue not stealing parts of the wizard class. I get what you’re saying from a lore perspective but from a mechanical PoV there’s not really any difference between saying “I’m half wizard” and “Half my traits are things I stole from wizards”

Also in terms of non-spell list mechanics, while there’s not a ton of official 5e representation there’s a good number of UA classes that have. The best example being the number of partial cleric subclasses for non cleric classes who get channel.

Also spell lists aren’t a minor class feature, they’re huge. A lot of wizard and cleric “class features” are the unique spells they have access to like revivify for clerics or find familiar for wizards.

I do think that directly copying and pasting the metamagic of sorcerers would be suboptimal, but either a limited version or one that couldn’t be done at will are both ways to keep the sorcerer unique while still giving some life to that tinkerer aspect of artificers that OP was talking about.

[sophontteks]

Be very careful with it. Sorcerers sacrifice a lot for metamagic.
No armor, normal skillset, basic weapons, terrible hitpoints, a reduced spell selection, and the least known spells of any full caster by a mile.
All for being able to use 2 metamagic choices, and eventually 3.

All in all. I don't buy that this is going to work. There is nothing in the game that singularly defines a class so much as metamagic defines a sorcerer. If I could subtle cast spells as another caster, i'd drop a sorcerer in a heartbeat.

[Aquillion]

Remember, artificers are only half-casters (and it would only work with artificer spells, so no multiclassing to sneak it into another class.) I don't think Sorcerers are particularly threatened by that.

[sophontteks]

Remember, artificers are only half-casters (and it would only work with artificer spells, so no multiclassing to sneak it into another class.) I don't think Sorcerers are particularly threatened by that.

That's only a factor if artificers lose their other abilities. Metamagic is strong. What are they losing for it?
If they get retain their other awesome abilities on top of metamagic casting, I don't think sorcerers could compete.

[Aquillion]

That's only a factor if artificers lose their other abilities. Metamagic is strong. What are they losing for it?
If they get retain their other awesome abilities on top of metamagic casting, I don't think sorcerers could compete.

This would be a subclass feature (and, obviously, the only thing that subclass provides.) A huge amount of an artificer's power comes from their subclass (both of the published ones give them minions that make up much of their combat contribution, which they'd be sacrificing here, plus additional benefits.)

[JackPhoenix]

I don’t really how saying “it IS a wizard” makes the rogue not stealing parts of the wizard class. I get what you’re saying from a lore perspective but from a mechanical PoV there’s not really any difference between saying “I’m half wizard” and “Half my traits are things I stole from wizards”

Rogue isn't stealing anything. Wizard gets wizard features because it is a wizard. If it was cleric/wizard, the cleric wouldn't be stealing wizard abilities either. Both classes would get their features separately.

Also in terms of non-spell list mechanics, while there’s not a ton of official 5e representation there’s a good number of UA classes that have. The best example being the number of partial cleric subclasses for non cleric classes who get channel.

You mean one (theurgy wizard), unless we're talking about paladin, who gets his own channel energy independant of clerics?

Also spell lists aren’t a minor class feature, they’re huge. A lot of wizard and cleric “class features” are the unique spells they have access to like revivify for clerics or find familiar for wizards.

Revivify isn't unique to clerics. Every paladin also has it on its list. Find Familiar (somewhat) unique to wizards, but it's easy to obtain in other ways... there's whole warlock not-quite-subclass based around that concept, another warlock not-quite-subclass that can grant access to it, and there are two feats that can grant it (Ritual Caster and Magic Initiate). And that's not counting AT rogue and EK fighters who get access to wizard spells, and of course bards.

Metamagic is what makes sorcerer different from other spellcasters. It's the core of their identity, like Wild Shape is for druids or Pact Magic for warlocks.

[Aquillion]

Metamagic is what makes sorcerer different from other spellcasters. It's the core of their identity, like Wild Shape is for druids or Pact Magic for warlocks.

And that's why nobody else gets the ability to turn into powerful animals or to use Warlock magic in a different way! Oh wait.

There's also plenty of unique, defining traits that are available elsewhere - any unique spell is available to Bards (including iconic stuff like a Paladin's steed); Fighter Maneuvers are available via a feat; so is Monk barehanded combat.

I'm not suggesting giving Artificers something exactly like Sorcerer metamagic, but I feel your position is like saying "Druids have Wild Shape, therefore nobody else should be able to change shape ever" or "the thematics of Pact Magic are unique to Warlocks, therefore Bards shouldn't be allowed to learn Warlock-only spells." Sorcerers don't have an exclusive claim on modifying your spells; they have one very specific implementation of that ability.

(For example, most wizard schools also buff or modify your spells in a particular area - they just do so via a different mechanism, just like prepared Artificier metamagic should be.)

I honestly feel like the key issue here is the word "metamagic", and that I should have just avoided that word when describing an artificer subclass that could modify its spells during long rests. I'll keep that in mind when putting together a more detailed write-up.

But, seriously... "artificers, during long rests, can modify some of their Artificer spells as they prepare them in unique ways specific to them." That's not something that bares enough resemblance to Sorcerer metamagic to justify any serious concern.

[sophontteks]

But, seriously... "artificers, during long rests, can modify some of their Artificer spells as they prepare them in unique ways specific to them." That's not something that bares enough resemblance to Sorcerer metamagic to justify any serious concern.

Sorcerers have few spells, and only 2 metamagic choices until level 10. They tailor their spells to work with their metamagic choices too. But they lack the option to change their spells out, or tailor them differently.

It depends on what you are trying to do. I don't think any of the good metamagics really fit into this anyway. Subtle, quicken, and twinned are the big grey options.

[Aquillion]

Sorcerers have few spells, and only 2 metamagic choices until level 10. They tailor their spells to work with their metamagic choices too. But they lack the option to change their spells out, or tailor them differently.

It depends on what you are trying to do. I don't think any of the good metamagics really fit into this anyway. Subtle, quicken, and twinned are the big grey options.

Some thoughts. Keep in mind that modifying a spell means the modification is not optional; until your next long rest, you're stuck with the modified version and cannot use the base version. Some of these would also have level adjustments, although the precise numbers could be hard to work out.

Unless noted otherwise, all devices produced by these modifications cease functioning after your next long rest. Some of these might also have level requirements before you can learn them.

• Turn a spell into a deployable trap; you take the spell's casting time to deploy it, it arms itself a turn after being deployed, and it then goes off when [anyone you didn't designate / anyone you designated] approaches within a certain distance. If you use this with a cantrip, you can have only one copy deployed at once; deploying a new one causes the previous one to become non-functional.
• Choose one of your spells with a casting time of one action, and one of your cantrips. In order to cast the modified spell, you must spend both an action and a bonus action, which lets you cast both the cantrip and the spell, in whichever order you choose.
• Choose one of your spells, which must have a casting time of one action and be able to target a single person. You turn it into a wearable device that activates automatically under conditions you specify, casting the given spell on whoever is wearing it as per Contingency. You only get one such device per long rest, producing it consumes one slot of the appropriate spell level, and the spell is otherwise unavailable to you per the above.
• Turn a spell with a casting time of one action into an automaton version of a beast from [short list of beasts]. The automaton faithfully obeys your commands, but cannot take attack actions. It acts on your turn. You can cast the spell (only) by taking the actions for it as usual and having the automation devote its action to it as well; the spell originates from the automation for range purposes, as if it cast it, but is otherwise treated as being cast by you. If the automaton dies, you lose access to the spell until your next long rest.
• Choose one of your concentration spells. Whenever you cast it, you create a device for it that allows you to switch it on and off with a bonus action. While it is switched off, its effect is suppressed, and you don't have to maintain concentration on it, but its duration continues to expire; additionally, anything aside from concentration-related issues that would cause the spell to end (such as attacking while under Invisibility or being successfully dispelled with Dispel Magic) still ends it even if it's switched off. This device can be given to others (or stolen from you, in theory.)

Note that while several of these resemble existing abilities (partially because it's easier to balance stuff that has an existing reference point), they behave differently in key ways. Having to commit specific spells to these strategies in advance, in particular, is a huge deal.