Sauron vs Voldemort

[dehro]

I realize I had declared not to answer anymore..but hell...this one really makes me laugh..
I realize you must have slept through maths, at school, (like I did most of the times)...but I immagine you also had days without maths...
have you never ever come home after a day of school, (without sleeping-time math hours) with maybe one or two important tests during the morning.. and have you never felt a bit nervous, tired and unwilling to do much else for the rest of the day, or maybe had an unnecessary snappy reaction at your mom, or said the entirely wrong thing to your sister or girlfriend?

If your answer is yes, then you must donate your brain to a pool of scientist, for study purposes...
if your answer is no, then maybe you are human, after all..and you will realize that after a full day of doing magic, often at high speed, never having a chance to take risks or relax, or let the grip on your nerves lapse for a heartbeat, you (or any HP wizard) are bound to feel pretty tired, and your nerves a ball of steel in strong need of a bath with soothing herbs..even when you havent moved about very much..
do you really want to continue in your denial that this mental state could, at least a couple of times, account for one or two crucial mistakes from the part of the wizards? or are you still convinced that teachers, clercks, thugs and common folks with a wand suddenly can turn into lethal weapons that never get jammed and never give in to nerves, fear, tiredness, disillusionment or treachery?
in all of your post I haven't seen you specifically stating that a wizard could fail an enchantment or do the wrong thing at the wrong time..and die because of it..not ever...
even less you have conceded that a strategy could backfire or cause losses in the process of being executed...
isn't that a bit much to swallow for the poor fools like us, who apparently don't see the obvious truth, that as long as a wizard has his wand nothing can touch him, and that when he loses the wand, there are others that just grow on trees??

for the records, it was I who suggested that, in case of dire need, orcs could eat each other... I did so because it actually happens in the book...which is more than what can be said for half of your ideas for sundering Sauron.
also... when did I ever say that the whole army should move at once? (in my last post? are you even taking it seriously??)
again, it's in the books that uruk-hai can move pretty fast, even when there are a hunderd or more of them...or have you forgotten how Eomer calls Aragorn when he first meets him and hears how long and fast they have pursued those who had captured merry and pippin???
and hereby I am really done with the topic..

[Rowanomicon]

and hereby I am really done with the topic..

Sure, that's what they all say.

[EvilElitest]

Y'know, I think I have the solution to the neutral battlefield problem - let's put them both in space! Voldemort can breathe in space, how's Sauron?

Wait, when does voldemort restort to space travel?

Again, EE, no one asked about Sauron as of the Silmarillion. It's LOTR Sauron.

Ok, i'm ill so my option may be a little iffy here, but i'm looking at the Title right now and it says "SAURON vs. Voldemort" not LOTR Sauron vs. Voldemort. So we make a choice.
1. Sauron without hte Ring, aka at the height of his power
2. Sauron after creating the Ring, but holding the ring.
Now you say that LOTRs sauron doesn't get his ring, but i'm under the impression that the ring is kinda important to him, i mean you seem to know best seeing as your denying him his most powerful weapon, but silly old me was under the impression that the One Ring was somewhat important to Sauron's power.

Can *he* fly? No. Sauron no longer has his rampant shapeshifting abilities.

If we wan't to be techinical
1. He can fly pior to the ring's power
2. he can fly with the ring
3. He can fly without the ring until he was destroyed by heavenly wrath
4. He can use a bloody fell beast if he has to

And yes, I think that's a problem for *anyone*, I don't care if he worked near lava for long periods. You also can't swim in magma,

And scienticlly speaking, you can fly on a broom but voldemort seems to be doing fine. If sauron can hang out in lava, or more to hte point, super lava, why can't he go into non corrupted magma. Oh and please exlain to me how Voldemort expect to destroy the entire crust layer of hte eart while Sauron just stands their.

And no, he's not just going to stand there, but it doesn't make a difference when the floor drops out from under you. Unless he has a way to counter endless falling, he'll have to deal with being bathed in magma.which is a barrier to getting back, on top of all the rock that's collapsed in the hole he came down through.

wait, does voldemort ever destory the Earth's crust? Because if he could, why is hog warts still standing? Please explain how he hopes to do this
estroy a Maiar's assumed

It is explicitly possible in all sorts of sources to dphysical form. (Gandalf died, no question.)

Gandalf was a Mair forced into Mortal form, where Sauron is a mair in his true form until the end. The only mortal form Sauron takes is the one at the end of the second age

It has been long established that is sufficient victory. When Voldemort was hit with AK after it rebounded from baby Harry Potter, he was 'banished' as well. It killed every bit of him it could find. His essence, however, endured to reform another day. AK schucks the target, even if it cannot permanently destroy it.

Ok, Voldemort is a human with essence in another place
Sauron is living "essence" you might say, cut the mortal thing right out.

[QUOTE]The wizards don't need any special knowledge of the world they're in - they pull a Rope Trick every night. That doesn't require any mastery of the terrain, hm?[/QUOTE
Ummmmmmmmm
Orc Bob- Hey boss, every time I approach that hill, i feel a need to walk away. Even when your whiping me
Orc Boss- Well, that seems weird, but we know were that hill is, lets just plant Saurman's bombs around it.
You get the idea

Fiendfyre is not 'hot hot burnination'. It turns things to ash upon touch, and can destroy highly resilient magical artefacts like horcruxes. It doesn't matter if you hang out in volcanoes or not, Fiendfyre says "Disintegrate", "Shatter", however you'd like to phrase it.

And Sauron, who is established as a Mair spirt demi god thing with powers over fire say "Down boy".

That would be bad news for Sauron's non-specifically vaunted armor, at the very least, leaving the fleshy parts available for all other manner of blunt trauma (for when the magic fire *doesn't* torch Sauron for whatever fun reason).

Every thing Sauron touches burns, with the noticiable exception of his armor. So.............i don't think nondivine fire is the best trick eh?
also, bear this in mind, Sauron hangs out in the fires of mount doom right? Now these fires can destroy the One ring, the most powerful artifact in hte world (at least in the second and third) and are so much more powerful than the Horcuxis, and he hangs out in that alright. So i doubt the FF is going to hurt him much

I never really thought about the Basilisk, but that is pretty formidable... 'just' a gaze attack is dismissing a lot. Orcs are going to have some trouble finding a target rushing whatever distance without looking up the whole way.

Arrows. Their kinda new, pretty sweet though

The twelve-year-old was only able to fight it because that attack was disabled.

That still looks really bad on your record

It has 'killed' ghosts, so its potency against undying creatures has been demonstrated.

The nazgul don't see the same way mortals, or HP ghosts do, no problem their

from,
EE

[Rutee]

I agree with dehro. This argument is useless if some people ignore reason.

In as many words or less, why I stopped posting. I mean, we got to fairly ludicrous parts when animals started being legitimate threat to an army with super-demoralizer++. I imagine you need Supa Robottu Spirittu or something like that to properly throw off the Nazgul's stuff entirely. I imagine the Death Eaters can in fact function (At greatly reduced effectiveness) through it, but come on. A dumb animal?

Edit: Especially a dumb animal that can be killed by a 12 year old wimp (His defense against the dark arts teachers sucked, so no phys ed there, and as he's the Seeker, I don't think his Quidditch training would include a lot of physical training since his eyesight and flying ability are more important) with a sword he's never used before..

[Rowanomicon]

If we're going by 7th book Voldy et co. then he doesn't have the basilisk, sorry.

Not that it matters anyway...

[Rutee]

To be fair, they can be made. Something about having a chicken sit on a snake's egg, or something like that. But the Lifespan seems long enough that rearing one to adulthood isn't reasonable within any campaign that isn't measured in decades.

[Rowanomicon]

Well maybe he could raise one or two (simultaneously) over the course of this battle, but I hardly think that he would.

Anyway I think this thread might span the course of decades.

[Ditto]

Lipe, EE, this entire thread has been working with LOTR Sauron. ::shrug::

Fiendfyre can be stopped if you know the proper spell - it states as much in the book. "Too bad he wasn't paying attention when they told him how to stop it," I believe is the quote, and Hermione says that it's terrifically dangerous and can't be used in any controlled way, and only a really powerful wizard would dare use it and think they could conquer it. Also, it doesn't grow endlessly on its own - when let loose, it resolves into the shape of giant fantastic beasts, which then have fun consuming everything it touches. And fire immunity is great, but this isn't just fire - it's disintegrate.

What part of 'AK kills the pretty living part of you' doesn't kill him?
What part of 'Stunning stuns things' doesn't stun him?
What part of 'Sauron falls down a chasm filling in with rocks' doesn't hurt him? (That's how Gandalf's deathtrip started.)
That's what's fun about HP magic - there are a lot of instant effects which you don't have a chance to dispel. Also, the ability to dispel magic and the ability to block magic are not the same as immunity to magic. The Balrog vs. Gandalf at Moria wasn't about holding the door closed, it was keeping the door *sealed* with a ward. Gandalf was reinforcing it, the Balrog was undoing it. The fact is, the door *was* sealed. If Defodio scoops out earth, the rock is gone. There's no contest of will involved when magic isn't effected by imposing your force of personality on the world.

If you forge things in the fires of a kiln, does that mean you're inside of the kiln? No, we cannot infer that Sauron swam in lava.

I apologize - I didn't mean to imply that eating orc flesh was the only option put forth. It was just a silly thing to discuss as a valid source of food. "Oh, well we'll just eat some other orcs. The other orcs might object, y'know? And Fiendfyre turns them to ash... unlike the 'orcs can run around for a few hours on fire!' someone suggested long ago.

I understand the point about nerves, Dehro (wb!), but misfiring an incantation is not at all common no matter how nervous you are, especially when they're frequently used and familiar ones. We've seen neither Death Eaters nor the Order nor the DA have ever had a spell backfire on them in the midst of battle.

Hogwarts is still standing because Voldemort was never stupid enough to attack it. He rather likes it, actually, it's his home... and it's full of terrifically talented wizards and witches, including the only one he considers a decent fight (when he's on his own!)... and he only launched a full-scale attack because he had to in order to preserve his Horcrux and it was only such a terrific battle because every character in all of the Potterverse showed up to fight. (What the *hell* was Oliver Wood doing there?)

Let me fix that conversation for you, EE
Orc Bob: ::walks away from hill, and never thinks anything of it::
Orc Boss: ::walks away from hill, and never thinks anything of it::

A basilisk could be raised, but I didn't bring it into the fray because it wasn't part of Voldemort's proper fighting force. It's still a bit of a buzzkill blindly shooting arrows at a glowy bubble surrounding a thing that kills with a glance. (And yes, that totally looks bad on your resume. "Mr. Slytherin, it looks like you were unemployed for a period of 50 years, and you were terminated from your position after only a few months. I understand you are not eligible for rehire. Would you care to explain?")

The Nazgul are very much bad news for your common Death Eater (in the off chance that they show up somewhere nearby). Y'know what folks do when they see one? Run for the bloody hills. Get out of there as fast as they can. Death Eaters have a terrifically efficient way to flee - you might have heard of it.

[EvilElitest]

Well maybe he could raise one or two (simultaneously) over the course of this battle, but I hardly think that he would.

Anyway I think this thread might span the course of decades.

Nah, Link vs Seph only lasted 53 pages, so this one isn't even in the danger zone yet. when we hit 37, the we are in the minor danger zone.

from,
EE

[lipe44]

Lipe, EE, this entire thread has been working with LOTR Sauron. ::shrug::

Not really, most of the things referent to Sauron is from the Silmarillon, just read some of the posts in favour of Sauron, the fact is:

He does have the ring or he hasnt forged it, but as him without the ring is more unkillable then it should be it because its them at their strongest form or that would be really stupid.

[Rowanomicon]

Ditto, what part of "Sauron can dispel magic at a level where HP wizards become irrelevant" do you not understand?

Also kiln =/= volcano. Seriously, dude, wtf? I shouldn't have to explain things like that to you.

Also (I have given into the lowest common denominator), Nazgul omg pwnzors Death Eaters. I think apparating requires a little more concentration than most have when pissing their pants with fear and falling into a coma.

[EvilElitest]

Lipe, EE, this entire thread has been working with LOTR Sauron. ::shrug::

No, it has been about Sauron, their is not rule saying we can just ignore his power prior to the rings creation. If this is LOTRS sauron, why doesn't he have the ring.

Fiendfyre can be stopped if you know the proper spell - it states as much in the book. "Too bad he wasn't paying attention when they told him how to stop it," I believe is the quote, and Hermione says that it's terrifically dangerous and can't be used in any controlled way, and only a really powerful wizard would dare use it and think they could conquer it. Also, it doesn't grow endlessly on its own - when let loose, it resolves into the shape of giant fantastic beasts, which then have fun consuming everything it touches. And fire immunity is great, but this isn't just fire - it's disintegrate

.
Heys, so does any non highly magical items Sauron touches.

What part of 'AK kills the pretty living part of you' doesn't kill him?

Ok, you know the Broom Sticks in HP. They are "alive". I mean they seem to have a will of their own. Or Tom Riddle's diary. They are willed things, then have semi intellegence, but they aren't living. AK kills mortal things, like orcs, or humans, or house elves. But Sauron isn't mortal, more like a great spirit. Now can AK kill things that don't have mortal shells. No. A wand has been hit by an AK before and the wands "Spirt" doesn't die. The wand is fine, the bearer is not. You see. If Ak could destroy the magic within a wand or a broom then i could concied that it could hurt Sauron.

What part of 'Stunning stuns things' doesn't stun him?

What form is Sauron in? If he has shape shifted into a creature that has anotomy to stun, then yes

What part of 'Sauron falls down a chasm filling in with rocks' doesn't hurt him?

If in his true form, he' get up

(That's how Gandalf's deathtrip started.)

Gandalf was in a mortal Guise, not his true form.

If you forge things in the fires of a kiln, does that mean you're inside of the kiln? No, we cannot infer that Sauron swam in lava.

He forged in the fires of mount doom, were the ring fell and was destroyed. He would have to be in the lava to forge it.

I apologize - I didn't mean to imply that eating orc flesh was the only option put forth. It was just a silly thing to discuss as a valid source of food. "Oh, well we'll just eat some other orcs. The other orcs might object, y'know? And Fiendfyre turns them to ash... unlike the 'orcs can run around for a few hours on fire!' someone suggested long ago.

If a wizard kills an orc and the body is still around, hey free food. If a wizard is killed, then hey a treat.

I understand the point about nerves, Dehro (wb!), but misfiring an incantation is not at all common no matter how nervous you are, especially when they're frequently used and familiar ones. We've seen neither Death Eaters nor the Order nor the DA have ever had a spell backfire on them in the midst of battle.

Do you know how moral works? When surrounded by guys trying to shoot you, i can imagine some problems.

Hogwarts is still standing because Voldemort was never stupid enough to attack it.

????????????????
Last book, last few chapters?

He rather likes it, actually, it's his home... and it's full of terrifically talented wizards and witches, including the only one he considers a decent fight (when he's on his own!)... and he only launched a full-scale attack because he had to in order to preserve his Horcrux and it was only such a terrific battle because every character in all of the Potterverse showed up to fight. (What the *hell* was Oliver Wood doing there?)

Yeah yeah the final battle, were we take a look at voldemort's tatic. They were awful

Let me fix that conversation for you, EE
Orc Bob: ::walks away from hill, and never thinks anything of it::
Orc Boss: ::walks away from hill, and never thinks anything of it::

Orc boss never went to that hill, and orc bob notices every time he is ordered to go to that hill (being whipped if he fails)
Now after a while, the orcs or their masters will notice something

A basilisk could be raised, but I didn't bring it into the fray because it wasn't part of Voldemort's proper fighting force.

I think voldemort should get it, i mean it is both villlians at full power. Voldemort gets his Basalik, Sauron gets his ring. Sound enterilly unfair to me, but this isn't a very fair fight (they are both villians)

It's still a bit of a buzzkill blindly shooting arrows at a glowy bubble surrounding a thing that kills with a glance.

If the Nazgul direct the archers (they don't have eyes, or at least see differently from humans) it should work out

(And yes, that totally looks bad on your resume. "Mr. Slytherin, it looks like you were unemployed for a period of 50 years, and you were terminated from your position after only a few months. I understand you are not eligible for rehire. Would you care to explain?")

I can imagine the Basalik in a three piece suit with sun glasses working as a lawyer

The Nazgul are very much bad news for your common Death Eater (in the off chance that they show up somewhere nearby). Y'know what folks do when they see one? Run for the bloody hills. Get out of there as fast as they can. Death Eaters have a terrifically efficient way to flee - you might have heard of it.

The nazgul fear does a few things it
a) run for hte blood hills, ok, hurts moral but death eater escapes
B) crushign despair, just sits their doing nothing, dead or captured
c) panics, which could include running on foot or teleporting randomlly, high chance of death
D) gets the Black Breath, well that sucks
F) losses will to fight

So yeah, that could cause some problems
from,
EE

[Eita]

Evil, the word is morale, not moral.

[warty goblin]

Avada Kedavera cannot effect Sauron because Sauron is not technically alive, he simply exists, sort of a large and evil universal constant. How can you kill something that is not alive? AK ripped Voldemort's soul from his body because he was alive. It couldn't kill him because he had taken precautions, but it could still effect him. Sauron is, as stated, not really alive or dead, he exists, has existed since the birth of the universe and will exist until its end.

Sauron's form can be destroyed by massive amounts of physical punishment, but AK specifically does not actually do physical damage, it merely kills its target. Think of my rock analogy, you cannot kill the rock. You can beat it into small pieces of less dangerous rock with a large hammer, but the rock still exists. And this rock will kill anything that tries to do this to it.

Fiendfyre will not work because we know it can be contained by sufficently powerful magic- it didn't escape the confines of the Room of Requirement or the entirety of Hogwarts would have been reduced to ashes. If a manevolent spirit of fire as old as time does not count as "powerfully magical", I'm not really sure what does.

[EvilElitest]

Evil, the word is morale, not moral.

um, what?

Oh and warty goblin, does my broomstick/wand analogy work for you?
from,
EE

[warty goblin]

um, what?

Oh and warty goblin, does my broomstick/wand analogy work for you?
from,
EE

Yes, that's another good analogy for why AK doesn't work in this case, thanks for coming up with it.

[EvilElitest]

Yes, that's another good analogy for why AK doesn't work in this case, thanks for coming up with it.

Np, and AK has been used on wands before and the spirit inside does not die
from,
EE

[Ditto]

I'm pretty sure we've been arguing over LOTR Sauron, for serious... someone would have brought up the rampant shapeshifting, for one point. (Which you have just now, EE, but it's not around earlier.) And LOTR Sauron doesn't have the Ring because... LOTR Sauron doesn't have the Ring.

How is a broom alive? Or a wand, or horcrux, or the Ring, or any of those things? (AK has been used to kill a wand? Buh?) Intelligence is not the same as living... They're non-living, just like the rock. (Unless it's a goat! ) A being that Exists cannot not-be-killed in the same way a rock can not-be-killed. That's like saying you can't kill a dead thing because it's dead; a very different defintion from 'You can't kill a rock.'

Sauron Exists, cool. His shell, however, - the garment, as someone helpfully illustrated previously - does not Exist. It began somewhere, and it ends somewhere. If he is in physical form, he can die. Is there some point of contention on whether Maiar in physical form can be killed? I was arguing that LOTR era Sauron was noncorporeal, since that's how I understood it, but since he's got a body to work with now (and who said I never concede points! ), it's only serving to move comparisons about Sauron and Gandalf more and more valid. How can you kill something that's not really 'alive', you ask? The same way you kill Gandalf.

I know a kiln isn't a volcano, Rowan, I'm just pointing out that the sentence "Forged in the fires of Moria = can swim in lava" doesn't make sense. Just because you forge X in Y does not mean you can happily exist within Y.

[warty goblin]

Think of Sauron's body like a piece of red hot, armored and highly lethal piece of clothing. Sauron can continue to wear it until it is sufficiently damaged to fall off of him, at which point he leaves it. AK doesn't damage its targets at all however, it merely kills them. Since Sauron cannot be killed and the spell won't damage his body, AK is worth no more in combat than a green Christmas light.

Actually I take that back, you could electrocute or strangle somebody with Christmas lights, or even stab them with miniscule but sharp shards of glass. AK is just the pretty light part to Sauron.

Sauron didn't just forge the Ring in Mt. Doom, he actually lived there. Personally, I feel that living in an actively erupting volcano indicates being pretty much immune to heat in any form.

Again, in an actual fight between the two, Sauron would simply counterspell, then sunder V's wand, before hunting him down and burning him to death.

Actually come to think of it, we are pretty much assuming a Second Age/earlier Sauron anyway, since that's where we are getting his known powers from. I say we dump the pretense and just assume the Silmarillion bada** we all know and love.

[Ditto]

Fiendfyre =/= Heat & flame alone...

So collapsing a big rockshaft on Sauron would be fine, then? He's free to leave the metal-box-form whenever he likes, of course.

I'm still not getting how dispelling works against powers with an instantaneous effect. Is there an example where one of the casters of yore does something, and then another goes ahead and reverses that effect? Not a standing magical effect like warding a door, that is, but rather something like a transfiguration or blasting something to pieces and willing it back together again.

Pulling all these known powers from the Silmarillion and attributing them to LOTR Sauron certainly explains a lot of the disconnect between what I've seen in the trilogy and the powers that are being claimed here (from the Silmarillion, which I sadly do not know and love. I'm getting around to it...).

[Eita]

um, what?

Oh and warty goblin, does my broomstick/wand analogy work for you?
from,
EE

You said, "Do you know how moral works?". I corrected you. The word you meant to use was morale.

[Eita]

Fiendfyre =/= Heat & flame alone...

So collapsing a big rockshaft on Sauron would be fine, then? He's free to leave the metal-box-form whenever he likes, of course.

I'm still not getting how dispelling works against powers with an instantaneous effect. Is there an example where one of the casters of yore does something, and then another goes ahead and reverses that effect? Not a standing magical effect like warding a door, that is, but rather something like a transfiguration or blasting something to pieces and willing it back together again.

Pulling all these known powers from the Silmarillion and attributing them to LOTR Sauron certainly explains a lot of the disconnect between what I've seen in the trilogy and the powers that are being claimed here (from the Silmarillion, which I sadly do not know and love. I'm getting around to it...).

For the last time, we're talking about Sauron in general, not specifically LOTR Sauron.

[Rutee]

Fiendfyre =/= Heat & flame alone...

Do you regularly attack Fire Elementals with Fire Elemental anything and expect to do damage? What is with you? I don't think they're really listening when you say "Fire 3 isn't mundane fire, therefore, resistance/immunity to fire won't save you!"

I'm still not getting how dispelling works against powers with an instantaneous effect. Is there an example where one of the casters of yore does something, and then another goes ahead and reverses that effect? Not a standing magical effect like warding a door, that is, but rather something like a transfiguration or blasting something to pieces and willing it back together again.

Counterspelling, not dispelling. It's "No, I don't believe you cast at all", nothing else.

[warty goblin]

And what magic in HP is instantanious anyway? Transfiguration is the only one I can think of. All destruction effects I've seen are far from instantious, they tend to involve screaming out command words and jets of light. Since I'm now officially talking about Silmarillion Sauron, transfiguring him won't do much, he's a shapeshifter, and will just shift back to something more deadly.

Gouging out deep holes also won't work, he'll either shift forms and fly out, or simply inform the ground under him that it is in fact staying under him though the joy and wonder of counterspelling.

Voldemort will get one, at most two, spells off before his wand is snapped by Sauron's will and he is made helpless. Given that the first spell he almost always casts is AK, that second spell had better pack some hitherto unheard of punch. Given that Sauron's presense tends to hinder rational thought, I'm guessing that V is not going to instantly divine the one and only spell capable of destroying Sauron's corporeal form*. Remember, Voldemort has never fought anything like Sauron before, whereas Sauron has considerable experience in fighting and killing people and even surviving the attacks of entities vastly more powerful than himself, something which Voldemort lacks.

*edit: assuming of course such a spell exists. Sauron's form is never destroyed through magic, not even divine calibur magic that destroys an entire continent out from under Sauron's feet.

[Ditto]

Of course it’s LOTR Sauron, Eita. Why else were we talking about Sauron without the Ring and how Voldemort might try find the Ring and control the Ring for the first ten pages if it’s assumed he had it?

Are Fire Elementals immune to Disintegrate? I’m not saying “It’s really hot fire!”, I’m saying it *more* than fire. I do not think it will burn Sauron. (Is that clear enough?)

In LOTR, counterspelling is a always contest of wills in a direct challenge. They stare at each other and make funny faces as their brains battle it out. It’s almost like they say, “I’m going to cast now. I dare you to stop me.” In order to counterspell something, you have to know it’s happening and do something about it at the time it happens, and it is most definitely a targeted effect; thus, even bolt spells have already been cast, even if they haven’t hit the target yet.

Defodio is an example of an instantaneous effect… thus, no “I say you didn’t just disappear, rock, despite the fact that you are gone!” The direct combat spells are instantaneous (AK, Stupefy). And it’s not ‘just’ transfiguration – it’s a huge branch of magic, second only (*maybe*) to Charms in common use, if not sheer versatility. Destruction effects are instantaneous the same way D&D’s are – once it hits, it’s happened. Same reason you can shoot Melf’s Acid Arrow through an anti-magic field. The magic is making an acid ball in your hand; you’re throwing it at the target, after that. For other specific instant-effect spells: Alohomora, Anapneo, Aparecium, Avis (Trans derived), Confringo, Deprimo, Diffindo, Duro (Trans. derived), Erecto, Episkey (Trans. derived, as a healing spell), Evanesco, Expulso, Extinguo, Ferula (Trans. derived), Finite, Flagrate, Geminio (Trans. derived), Glisseo (Trans. derived), Hominem Revelio… is half of the alphabet enough?

[warty goblin]

Stupify is instantantious? Must explain all of those times its described as a "jet of red light" that people dodge. Just about the only spell not described as a jet of light are the transfiguration spells, which go "pop" instead. Here's the thing: HP magic depends on shouting something latinesque and hoping like hell that your spell hits and works- nobody puts any willpower into it for the most part. In LOTR magic is basically the user imposing their will on the cosmos and telling it what to do. Its probably harder but a lot more versitile since spells can do more than one thing. Thus Sauron can counter Voldemort's spells by simply willing the spells out of existance before they have any effect. Then Sauron can will Voldemort's wand to snap, to which I've yet to see any counter proposed.

The most powerful magical battles we see in HP mess up the furniture and damage some stuff, but not one single building is actually destroyed. The most powerful battles in LOTR destroy entire continents and raise up mountain ranges- stuff that makes Fiendfyre and AK look like a stubbed toe in terms of destructive potential. Now Sauron didn't actually do any of this stuff that we know of, but he survived it. Please tell me one instance of Voldemort doing anything as magically destructive as leveling a continent,then I'll take him seriously as a threat. Until then? Not so much.

Fiendfyre and Sauron- Here's the known limits on Fiendfyre. For some reason it doesn't escape the Room of Requirement because the castle was not reduced to cinders. I'm guessing this reason is that the Room is powerfully magical enough to contain it. The thing is, Sauron's body is the physical manifestation of the will of the second or third most powerful and evil being in the cosmos. I think it safe to say that this counts as "powerfully magical"

[EvilElitest]

I'm pretty sure we've been arguing over LOTR Sauron, for serious...

Really. Well i'm pretty sure we've been arguing about Sauron. Now if it is LOTRs sauron, then he is just as powerful as normal sauron but with the ring.

someone would have brought up the rampant shapeshifting, for one point. (Which you have just now, EE, but it's not around earlier.)

I was brought up around page 1-4 if i recall

And LOTR Sauron doesn't have the Ring because... LOTR Sauron doesn't have the Ring.

So Sauron is being underpowered......bear in mind according to that logic, Voldemort is dead so

How is a broom alive? Or a wand, or horcrux, or the Ring, or any of those things? (AK has been used to kill a wand? Buh?)

In HP 1 in the first broom stick scene, harry mentions the fact the broom sticks seem to posses some sort of sentence
Wands we know, the brother wands, they are sentence, just alien
Ummmmm, Tom Riddle's diary, the amulet, the ring, all of which are sentient
The Ring, yes we know that, it is one of the biggest plot points

Intelligence is not the same as living... They're non-living, just like the rock. (Unless it's a goat! )

Their alive, just bodyless

A being that Exists cannot not-be-killed in the same way a rock can not-be-killed. That's like saying you can't kill a dead thing because it's dead; a very different defintion from 'You can't kill a rock.'

Exactly, Sauron is like that

Sauron Exists, cool. His shell, however, - the garment, as someone helpfully illustrated previously - does not Exist. It began somewhere, and it ends somewhere. If he is in physical form, he can die. Is there some point of contention on whether Maiar in physical form can be killed?

Sauron only has a true phyical form after the creation of the Ring, prior to that you just had to kill him again and again and again to bring him down

I was arguing that LOTR era Sauron was noncorporeal, since that's how I understood it, but since he's got a body to work with now (and who said I never concede points! ), it's only serving to move comparisons about Sauron and Gandalf more and more valid. How can you kill something that's not really 'alive', you ask? The same way you kill Gandalf.

Gandalf had a mortal shell, Sauron until hte second age did not. It wasn't until he was struck by the power of the valar he got into a mortal shell

Of course it’s LOTR Sauron, Eita. Why else were we talking about Sauron without the Ring and how Voldemort might try find the Ring and control the Ring for the first ten pages if it’s assumed he had it?

Please show me where this is. I mean LOTRS sauron i'm cool with but without his ring, his single most powerful item in existence. what?

from,
EE

[Ossian]

Loved the previous post from Warty Goblin and dehro's (last) post .
Besides, forget about Sauron for a second. Voldemort breaks god knows how many of the evil overlord rules, starting with the very name: Voldemort...so doomed to fall, although Sauron isn't that refreshingly original either. Well, perhaps "Joe Someone" is a bit less effective, but you'd expect the guy to survive his doomsday plan. Anyway, these are the core rules

and these are the "extras". Cellblock 1 and Cellblock 2

About 300 rules and tips, but even just the core 100 should do. Sauron isn't flawless either, as an Ev.Ov, but a lot more cautious than Vold. for sure.

Ossian.

[EvilElitest]

If we go by Evil Over lord rules, we must bear in mind Sauron was around about 60 years prior to most of those rules becoming over used. If you are the first to fall for it, your excused. If you are the tenth, nope
from,
EE

[lipe44]

Ditto you are basically saying that Sauron cant have his most powerfull artifact, the one that which he would be invencible while Voldemort has everything?

Ditto forget about saying Sauron without the ring and work in him with it or its a waste of time.

I have an idea, you choose which Sauron you wanted to fight with Voldemort then we can also choose the Voldemort to fight Sauron and it will be the baby Voldemort. Good luck on working with that.

Stop ignoring the facts Ditto, a VS thread is based that the both oponents are at the full power so work on it.