Sauron vs Voldemort

[Ditto]

I love how someone on the first page said "Sauron is a Maia, on the level of Gandalf..." Don't we all remember the endless threads of "Gandalf is a level 3 wizard"? The coolest things he ever did were 1) Dimension Door in The Hobbit when his friends got attacked by goblins, and 2) Drive off the Nazgul in RotK with his staff of shiny light. This was not magic light filled with goodness, it was just a really bright light. The Nazgul said, "WTF? Is someone actually *charging* us? Guys, regroup, we have to think about this!" Then they realized it was just a flashlight, and came back. If Sauron has shiny light, woe to his enemies!

Sauron can see all, but touch little. In physical form, he's a badass, epic-level... Fighter. An epic-level Fighter is still a Fighter, though.

But, focusing: Yes, Sauron has massive numerical advantages. Voldemort & co. have a huge tactical advantage in both mobility and firepower. Apparating & brooms (Sauron only has a handful of flying units); Avada Kedavra isn't the most useful thing against an entire army, but you can kill with other things. Huge explosions with a flick of the wrist, animating some trees to dance on orcs' heads (and we know that works pretty well already), Imperius'ing the largest units (who usually have the lowest will saves... trolls and oliphaunts, heh); and that's just a few.

HP magic is big, and 'splody, and clever, and generally limitless. LOTR magic is concentrated in artefacts and barely anywhere else. A few determined wizards could wreck up a modern army; a medieval one is hardly a different challenge, especially when they *just* discovered gunpowder.

[warty goblin]

HP magic is big, and 'splody, and clever, and generally limitless. LOTR magic is concentrated in artefacts and barely anywhere else. A few determined wizards could wreck up a modern army; a medieval one is hardly a different challenge, especially when they *just* discovered gunpowder.

Except for all of those things that can't be killed by magic- like the Witch-King or the Olag-Hai which seem to be invulerable to all but a few types of physical weapon. Admittedly we never see what exactly magic does to them, but it would seem reasonable to give them serious magic resistance at the minimum.

Also don't forget that HP wizards are 100% dependant on their wands, they basically can't do jack without them. Personally if I was engaged in combat with something like an Olag-Hai I'd want my best weapon to be more than a stick of wood with a tendancy to break. We know that a wizard like Gandalf can shatter staffs, why not wands? If Gandalf can do it, its a sure bet that Sauron could

I'd give this one to Sauron hands down, he just kinda oozes power- his very thoughts can shatter minds and bend wills over vast distances, and Voldermort has never struck me as being that strong in the resisting dark urges department. I see no reason why Sauron wouldn't simply be able to make him yet another serveant without much difficulty, all that would be required is to slip him one of the dwarf rings and Voldermort's toast

edit- about imperiousing the trolls, at least for Olag-Hai they will actually have a pretty darn unbeatable will save, since they're minds are directly controlled by Sauron, so unless you think that Voldermort's got more willpower than Sauron, that's just not gonna work.
Wizard "Imperio"
Olag-Hai *Hammer*
Wizard "Slurtch"

[Nerd-o-rama]

One does not simply Apparate into Mordor.

Quoted for Win.

[Greebo]

I don't quite think the Balrogs are that overwhlmingly strong. While among the more powerful Maiar, it is not impossible even for non-Ainu to defeat them; The Noldor of Gondolin supposedly slew dozens upon dozens (possibly hundreds) through sheer righteous fury at their last stand. And I would almost certainly rate Gandalf and Saruman among the medium or higher Maiar; they were after all the Valar's caretakers for Middle-Earth in the Third Age.

But how many thousands of Noldor died while slaying a few hundred Balrogs?

[Serenity]

One does not simply Apparate into Mordor.

Yes you do! You totally do! Well, if you've got Ninja-Wizards, at any rate. So just grab the headmaster from whatever school teaches witchcraft and wizardry in Japan, and there you go!

[factotum]

But how many thousands of Noldor died while slaying a few hundred Balrogs?

I don't think it matters. The Noldor who arrived back in Middle-earth were described as being fresh from the Blessed Land with the light of the Two Trees still in their eyes, and while they presumably diminished over time, it's notable that Galadriel is still seen as something pretty special some four thousand years later. The Noldor of Gondolin were thus considerably greater than the elves who were around during the latter part of the Third Age, which is when everyone seems to be placing this battle. Note that Legolas pretty much soiled his underwear when the Balrog first appeared, and Gandalf made it pretty clear that the Balrog was a foe beyond the rest of the Fellowship put together.

[Indon]

Regarding magic: In the LotR universe, evil magic is more potent, in terms of raw power, than good magic is. Good magic is more focused on inspiring people to be heroically awesome.

[Lord of the Helms]

But how many thousands of Noldor died while slaying a few hundred Balrogs?

Actually, it was five or so Balrogs who fell for every Noldor from the elite troop that made their suicide sortie/last stand (on the back of assaulting Dragons, no less). I'm only vague on the numbers of fallen Balrogs because I don't know how large the Noldor troop was. Tons of Balrogs were downed that day; Tuor took three out himself, I believe, and he was vanilla human. Come to think of it, the battle was won by the Dragons and treachery, not the Balrogs.

[Winterwind]

Which again, I think, rather proves how powerful some of Iluvatar's Children can get, rather than how "weak" Balrogs are. So it doesn't really affect Sauron's superiority as compared to normal mortals.

[Ditto]

100% dependent on wands = problem? They're not going to *hit* anything with them... Everyone needs a weapon to be effective in combat. Except that Voldemort can still cast powerful magic without a wand. So if you *somehow* get close enough to break his flimsy stick... and he'll go make a new one.

What's an Olag-Hai? Is that Uruk-Hai, the uber-orcs? If so, they aren't the biggest and smashiest things out there. Trolls don't have any will save. I don't know anything about the high-ups' magic immunities (please, tell me more...), but they are only a handful of soldiers - and are still just soldiers. Superspecialawesome soldiers, but they're flying guys with poisoned swords. In order to stop a wizard, you still need to hit him. Melee doesn't work against wizards.


That's what brooms are for. Doesn't anyone else watch How It Should Have Ended? I believe this solution has been mentioned before.

[WalkingTarget]

What's an Olag-Hai? Is that Uruk-Hai, the uber-orcs? If so, they aren't the biggest and smashiest things out there. Trolls don't have any will save. I don't know anything about the high-ups' magic immunities (please, tell me more...), but they are only a handful of soldiers - and are still just soldiers. Superspecialawesome soldiers, but they're flying guys with poisoned swords. In order to stop a wizard, you still need to hit him. Melee doesn't work against wizards.

From Wikipedia:

Olog-hai were "strong, agile, fierce, and cunning" trolls created by Sauron, not unlike the Uruk-hai, and were able to withstand sunlight while under the sway of Sauron's will. They seldom spoke and were said to know no language other than the Black Speech, in which Olog-hai means "troll-folk" (singular Olog "troll"). Because of their cunning, they were thought by some to be giant Orcs, rather than trolls. They appeared towards the end of the Third Age and could be found near Dol Guldur and in the mountains around Mordor. In the Battle of the Morannon, there appear "hill-trolls" of Gorgoroth which are implied to be Olog-hai in one of the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings (the term is not used within the story proper). These were described as being taller and wider than men, and their hide or armour was described as a mesh of horny scales. They had black blood. Peregrin Took slew one of these trolls at the Battle of the Morannon and after the destruction of the One Ring and the fall of Sauron the surviving trolls scattered as if mindless.

Tolkien != D&D. Talking about will saves in this context doesn't really fit.

As far as wizards vs. melee, I'll quote an old Jhereg saying. "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style."

Also, Rocking into Mordor... Awesome.

[Serenity]

Hmm, it occurs to me suddenly that anyone talking about being immune to magic in Tolkien means they're immune to Tolkienian magic. For all we know, if a HP Wizard was dropped into Middle Earth, no one would have a defense against his magic.

Hey, the Judge was immune to 'any weapon forged', but it turned out that only meant the swords and such that were around when he first showed up. Blowing him up good with a rocket launcher still worked.

Just playing the devil's advocate here.

[Winterwind]

That's what I meant. We have no way to know how the different worlds translate into each other. We can only assume that, since Sauron is a mighty fallen angel, he should be immune to magic, any kind of magic. A Voldemort supporter could reply that Voldemort is one of the mightiest wizards who ever lived, and hence should be able to overcome magic-resistance, any magic resistance. It gets completely subjective from there.
We need to make such assumptions, because otherwise we'd have no debate at all, but ultimately it all comes down to saying "But I think X should win, because he's obviously sooooo much better!".

[Ditto]

Olag-hai are nifty, then. He ought target other big brutes, I suppose. 'Will saves' is being used loosely to imply that the big heavy hitters don't have the most sophisticated minds and wouldn't be shaking off any mind control on their own.

Yes, the magic systems are different. That doesn't mean comparisons can't be made - 'untouchable spell resistance!' and 'uberblastysuperdeathspells!' obviously get old (just like "Protoss can glass a planet! Yeah, the Federation can glass a planet! Yeah? The Protoss can glass your mom! Ooooh!"). If it's completely beyond comparing, we leave it go. That said, 'virtually untouchable' is not the same as 'immune'. That has nothing to do with the (possibly) (completely) different magic systems in play here - except insofar as HP magic is fun and free-floating around all the time, and LOTR magic is extremely limited in its uses.

[Winterwind]

LotR magic is not quite as weak either. Melian, for instance, was able to create a protective ring around an entire forest which kept Morgoth's entire army at bay. Now if that's not powerful, I don't know what is.

[Terumitsu]

I will toss my two bits here. Because of Tolkien, and as such Sauron, We have DnD. Mildly indirectly but his works are the basis for it. And I just love his stuff... Sir John Ronald Ruel Tolken... May you rest in peace..

But yes. As for the wand things.... Those are magical focuses. So it is apparent that magic can be cast by an HP wizard but it would lack the power and/or direction that if they did have a wand. I would say that if it came down to it... Sauron would come out on top. LOTR magic isn't limited. Just subtle. He focused more on enchantments and such. The book is chock full of descriptions of them without naming them. But yes.. The 'killing curse' that Voldy likes has to connect. As shown in the books, it can be stopped by a barrier. Sauron mearly has to look at someone to completely screw over their mind... And there is that corruption thing with the ring too....

But that aside... Different universes have different things... so it really can't mech that well.

[Ditto]

I don't know anything outside the Trilogy and the Hobbit; the Silmarillion and other things y'all are referencing are beyond my ken, and (it sounds like) has magic somewhat more prominently. Definitely fill me in if my points are severely contradicted by that material. Warding a forest is most definitely serious business

Wands as focuses - is there another magic-user in LOTR who doesn't use a staff or such? All I have off the top of my head is Gandalf and Saruman, and they were pretty dependent on some focus. What sort of magic can Sauron do independent of the Ring and such artefacts? Enchantments and corruption are perfectly good magic, but I don't know examples of that. And again, Voldemort has waaaay more tricks than AK. AK is less than useful against large groups, but you never see large groups in HP. That's why it's the weapon of choice.

[warty goblin]

I don't know anything outside the Trilogy and the Hobbit; the Silmarillion and other things y'all are referencing are beyond my ken, and (it sounds like) has magic somewhat more prominently. Definitely fill me in if my points are severely contradicted by that material. Warding a forest is most definitely serious business

Wands as focuses - is there another magic-user in LOTR who doesn't use a staff or such? All I have off the top of my head is Gandalf and Saruman, and they were pretty dependent on some focus. What sort of magic can Sauron do independent of the Ring and such artefacts? Enchantments and corruption are perfectly good magic, but I don't know examples of that. And again, Voldemort has waaaay more tricks than AK. AK is less than useful against large groups, but you never see large groups in HP. That's why it's the weapon of choice.

Good point about wizards in LOTR needing focuses as well, although I don't think that they are quite as crippled without them as HP wizards are. Even robbed of his staff, servants and other powers, Saruman is still incrediably persuasive. Gandalf even staffless can lay out the smack with sword to a high degree I'd imagine, and Sauron ringless still has the power to shatter minds, gain the support of many nations and peoples, and nearly conquer the earth. For flashy magic like lightening strikes or something a focus seems to be necessary, but more subtle magic used to influence and control seems to be more inate to the user.

An HP wizard wandless can do pretty much nothing destructive or controlling, which is their primary advantage over LOTR magic.

I still don't see how Voldermort would have a chance despite the magic thing for the following reason. Sauron can bend people to his will without them knowing it, over great distances and do so to remarkably strong-willed people. Only a very few and exceptional people can withstand this, and not for long. The primary way that this seems to occur is acting on people's lust for power. The Ring is an agent of this, but so are Palantir, or simple exposure to the temptation to sieze power. All who are not stronger in will than Sauron who fall to this temptation end up serving him in the end, or in the case of Saruman, simply discarded for later punishment. Voldermort, I think it is safe to say, tends to disire power an inordinate degree, mostly for the purpose of making others suffer. Unless he can actually contend with the Will of Sauron, his mind will be bent to serve and he will become just another servant.

I hazard he cannot cotend with Sauron in a battle of minds for the following reasons:
- Voldermort's broken soul must weaken his ability to behave in a human and good manor, or in other words to withstand Sauron.
- He can be lied to, Several people show this throughout the books and get away with it. I don't think anybody ever lies to Sauron and gets away with it (Saruman tried, but was found out and was only protected by Sauron having more pressing problems and being in Orthanc)
- He is arrogant. So is Sauron, but Voldermort I hazard would not realize he was being controlled and manipulated until far to late for him to do anything about it, simply because he would never think of it as a possibility.
- Voldermort = human with weakened willpower. Sauron = at least a demi-god. Nuff said.

Anyway, that's how I read the battle. It simply wouldn't happen, Sauron would simply bend Voldermort to his will, and do so without significant difficulty due to the weakness of Voldermort's spirit.

[Tor the Fallen]

Voldemort was only terrorizing England, and only one sentient race, wasn't he?

Sauron was a goddamned global phenomena, who's master had been involved in the creation of the universe. I'm pretty sure Voldemort would be destroyed, though Sauron would probably just enslave him.

"Psst, Volde, check this cool ring out!"

[Eita]

Gandalf even staffless can lay out the smack with sword to a high degree I'd imagine

Case in point, his destruction of the Balrog.

Gandalf lost his staff, he was still able to royally own the Balrog with a magic sword. Balrogs are the physical manifestation of shadow and flame. I'm pretty sure you'd need a bit more then just a shiny sword (IE: Heritage or magic).

So if you *somehow* get close enough to break his flimsy stick... and he'll go make a new one.

If one could just magic a new wand into existence, Ollivander's would not exist. You need a magic item to create a wand. Thus, it is assumed that one can't just create a magical item.

[factotum]

Warding a forest is most definitely serious business

Did you skip the entire section of LOTR that deals with Lothlorien, then? If you want an example of an entire forest which is warded from outside harm (even to the extent of time running differently inside), it's right there!

[Nerd-o-rama]

Voldemort was only terrorizing England, and only one sentient race, wasn't he?

Sauron was a goddamned global phenomena, who's master had been involved in the creation of the universe. I'm pretty sure Voldemort would be destroyed, though Sauron would probably just enslave him.

"Psst, Volde, check this cool ring out!"

I think you've hit on the definitive answer on how this fight would go, here.

Sauron: "Hey, Voldemort. Why fight? If you leave me alone, I'll give you this shiny Artifact of Ultimate Power I just forged."
Voldemort: "Well, I do love Artifacts of Ultimate Power. Will it let me get through Potter's plot armor?"
Sauron: "...sure, why not."
Voldemort: "Score!" *puts on ring* "I feel this sudden compulsion to serve your will for all eternity."
Sauron: "That's normal."

[Winterwind]

Sauron: "That's normal."

This line is the funniest thing I have seen today. Thank you.

[warty goblin]

I think you've hit on the definitive answer on how this fight would go, here.

Sauron: "Hey, Voldemort. Why fight? If you leave me alone, I'll give you this shiny Artifact of Ultimate Power I just forged."
Voldemort: "Well, I do love Artifacts of Ultimate Power. Will it let me get through Potter's plot armor?"
Sauron: "...sure, why not."
Voldemort: "Score!" *puts on ring* "I feel this sudden compulsion to serve your will for all eternity."
Sauron: "That's normal."

You are made of win with a touch of awesome for spice.

[Ditto]

Again, I don't know why people think "Wandless wizards are powerless" is a useful point. Jedi without the Force are powerless, too.

Gandalf owns with a sword because he's a Wizard3/*Paladin 17*.

It takes work to create a wand, obviously, but not necessarily the work of a wand to make a wand. I figure it's the same as D&D crafting. You get some components, sit in a room, think about it reaalllly hard, and then boom! 125 xp later, you have boots of elvenkind. Or a wand. ::shrug:: In any event, see point one.

Voldemort was pretty much bothering all the races in England. (The centaurs and goblins and such would be annoyed that you called humans the only sentient creatures. ) If you're looking at 'number of people bothered', it's a question of scale in terms of available manpower. Voldemort might even get points because he's *much* more efficient in terms of people employed/people terrified-dead.

Sauron can twist people subtly, yes indeed... but he's not corrupting anyone right now; this is war. It's not really about who can convince other people to sign on, it's who's under Sauron's influence right now. In fact, that control can be broken magically and is, in the end, persuasion and not mind control. The Imperius curse it total domination.

Voldemort's fractured soul could conceivably make him *more* corruption-proof, since he is so very unlike other humans now due to his souly deformity. That one can go either way.

Voldemort doesn't make friends. He's in charge. Any deal with a demigod is going to be an uneven relationship in his eyes, methinks.

[warty goblin]

The difference I see between Sauron and Voldermort in terms of mind control and persuasion is this: the Imperius Curse can dominate a single person, but can be broken by anything with exceptional willpower. Sauron however can corrupt pretty much anybody in far more subtle and elegant ways- such as causing his enemies to dispair, or playing on old rivalries between peoples, or using a people's arrrogance against them. Lust for power causes corruption, and all corruption will in the end come under the sway of Sauron, if not directly, then merely indirectly. Look what Sauron managed to do to Numenor, a land that even Sauron admitted was more powerful then he was. Sauron survived, Numenor did not, end of story. Even if Sauron can't win directly, he's pretty hard to stop indirectly.

[Eita]

Gandalf owns with a sword because he's a Wizard3/*Paladin 17*.

No. Just no. He was using the sword as a secondary magical focus with his staff as his primary. Even when he lost his staff he was able to use the sword to kill the Balrog. A normal blade would've been destroyed if it stabbed a Balrog. An elven blade would at least be singed. Gandalf's was pristine when the battle was said and done, most likely because he used magic through the blade.

It takes work to create a wand, obviously, but not necessarily the work of a wand to make a wand. I figure it's the same as D&D crafting. You get some components, sit in a room, think about it reaalllly hard, and then boom! 125 xp later, you have boots of elvenkind. Or a wand. ::shrug:: In any event, see point one.

Not that easy. Not that easy at all. Wandcrafting is specialty in the HPverse. Why do you think that-

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everyone was scared when Voldemort captured Ollivander?

If it weren't that easy, would said event spark said reaction?

Also, if his wand breaks in the middle of a fight, he won't have time to make a new. It presumably takes hours. There's also the matter of getting the components. Phoenix feathers, unicorn horns, and dragonheart strings aren't that easy to get.

[The_Snark]

I think you've hit on the definitive answer on how this fight would go, here.

Sauron: "Hey, Voldemort. Why fight? If you leave me alone, I'll give you this shiny Artifact of Ultimate Power I just forged."
Voldemort: "Well, I do love Artifacts of Ultimate Power. Will it let me get through Potter's plot armor?"
Sauron: "...sure, why not."
Voldemort: "Score!" *puts on ring* "I feel this sudden compulsion to serve your will for all eternity."
Sauron: "That's normal."

This is a hilarious rendition of one of Sauron's favorite tactics. It's how he got the Nazgul, and he managed to mess around with the Dwarves even if it didn't corrupt them.

Also, on the minion level? Sauron wins, unquestionably. So all right, he doesn't have any Balrogs (which might have agreed to serve him, but might have been powerful enough to resist) or Dragons (which would have served him; Gandalf at some point mentions that if Thorin and Co. hadn't set out to get rid of Smaug eighty-odd years earlier, Gondor might well have fallen). Voldemort's wizards could easily rip through orcs, true, and maybe trolls; giants could also rip through orcs and beat up trolls.

Oh, wait. Mumakil. So much for the giant advantage. And then... there's the Nazgul. Who would rip through Voldemort's wizards, and possibly Voldemort himself, like tissue paper.

Why? Let's think about Voldemort and his follower's ambitions and motivations. There's lust for power, which they have in spades, but while that makes you vulnerable to Sauron's corruption, that corruption won't actually enslave you (as Sauron proves). Can't see that being a factor. so we're left with what we know of Voldemort. He went to great lengths to achieve immortality and unkillability, creating not one immortality-granting artifact but seven (and going after more in the course of the books; see Sorcerer/Philosopher's Stone). It's pretty clear that the thing driving hm most is fear (with a dash of racism and shame thrown in). What's the most powerful weapon of the Nazgul?

Oh, yeah. Fear. Paralyzing, sickening dread. Most of Voldemort's minions are not terribly loyal or brave. Consider them gone. Now, let's Voldemort and his fear of death, up against all nine Nazgul (whose power increases depending on how many are there). He's probably not going to break and run, but he's not on top of his game, either. He curses a Nazgul...

...and his wand breaks. If he's lucky, he retains use of his arm and his voice. Weapons that directly strike the Nazgul break, successful or no. Merry and Eowyn both lost the use of an arm until they received healing; while I've no doubt HP magic could do that, it's not going to be any use in combat. Frodo's dagger broke when he tried to attack the Witch-King on Weathertop, but he didn't really do anything, so there was no other injury (aside from the stab wound, of course). Aragorn never really injured the Nazgul when he drove them off; he only managed it because first, he'd surprised them with fire, and second, all they needed to do now was wait. Nobody else ever really even got past the fear to try attacking them.

The Nazgul have their own powers and magic, too; they knock Merry (a magic-resistant hobbit) out at a distance. The Witch-King got that name when he was the sorceror king of Angmar.

And that's not factoring in their abilities as immortal swordsmen-kings.

[bugsysservant]

No. Just no. He was using the sword as a secondary magical focus with his staff as his primary. Even when he lost his staff he was able to use the sword to kill the Balrog. A normal blade would've been destroyed if it stabbed a Balrog. An elven blade would at least be singed. Gandalf's was pristine when the battle was said and done, most likely because he used magic through the blade.

Not really all that true. Glamdring (Gandalf's Sword) wasn't just any elven sword. It was the elven sword. It was even used by Turgon himself at the fall of Gondolin. I can only think of two swords that would come close to it in power. Those would be Ringil (Fingolfin's) and Anglachel/Gurthang (the sword of Turin.) Frankly, Anduril doesn't even come close. And as for weapons being destroyed by Balrogs, I don't recall that ever happening. The fact that warriors could kill multiple Balrogs in one battle even strongly implies that that isn't true.

[Winterwind]

No. Just no. He was using the sword as a secondary magical focus with his staff as his primary. Even when he lost his staff he was able to use the sword to kill the Balrog. A normal blade would've been destroyed if it stabbed a Balrog. An elven blade would at least be singed. Gandalf's was pristine when the battle was said and done, most likely because he used magic through the blade.

Actually, Glamdring was an elven blade. One forged in Gondolin, to be precise, so chances are this wasn't the first Balrog killed by it.

One thing just occured to me - on the minion level, all but the most strong-willed minions on both sides won't count. The_Snark has already described what the Nazgul would do to most of Voldemort's servants; on the other hand, Voldemort has the dementors, who would have a similar effect on all the orcs and other lesser beings in Sauron's service.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Huh, that was Turgon's sword? Didn't know that, where is that info from? (If you say The Silmarillion now I will be very, very ashamed )
EDIT2: Don't answer. Found it. The Hobbit. Didn't remember it because Elrond never actually mentions Turgon by name there. Still ashamed.