MitD XIII: Learning is happening

[Algeh]

Yes, please! That'd be great. Some of us a pretty well versed in the D&D Hagunnemon (which is one of a few different kinds of Proteans) and comparing the D&D version to the radio version might shed an insight or two.

Ok, what would be helpful for me to review the radio show or scripts to look at, specifically?

It's a creature that shows up in a single scene in episode 6 of the radio show, so it's not something we have a lot of long-term information on. Like a lot of Hitchhikers' Guide, it's a species idea that doesn't really stand up to serious analysis, because that's not the kind of show it was.

A brief summary of what happens is that the regular characters steal a spaceship while leaving The Restaurant at the End of the Universe (in the books this is replaced with the Disaster Area sun-dive ship) that turns out to belong to the Hagunnemon fleet commander, and it travels back in time to where it's supposed to be, which is at the head of the Haunnemon fleet. The main characters don't initially realize the ship has anyone else on it, because the Hagunnemon in their ship are all being inanimate objects at that moment. There's a series of video calls between the rest of the fleet and the main characters, which a different one of the characters takes each time and which they report as being with a different-looking thing claiming to be the same creature each time (one was an animal and the other was a pair of boots), and then they eventually realize that the chair they'd been sitting in was actually the captain and various objects on the ship shifted into creatures that then attacked them. (Ford and Arthur then escape in a life pod and end up in the B Ark crashing into Earth plot.) The explanation for the species havinig this shifting ability is that they are "hyper-evolvers" that constantly evolve throughout their lives rather than generationaly, which does not actually make any sense but Hitchhikers' Guide isn't particularly big on sensible worldbuilding.

The main reasons it doesn't feel like a good fit to me are:
- The Hagunnemon are specifically called out as not having a lot of control over the specifics of what they shift into - the example given is of one that isn't able to reach a teacup changing forms into something with much longer arms, but incapable of drinking tea. This makes it fit poorly with the various arguments about why a shape-shifting MITD always has two eyes.
- Tended to change size as well as shape pretty wildly, which MITD is not seen to do.
- Narrative reveal would land like a thud: even most fans of Hitchhikers' Guide wouldn't notice the reference, and it's not a particularly interesting way to reference that work, or a world-building idea that would make sense to introduce into OotS on its own merits.

[Kish]

I don't know what is homebrew and what isn't. It is the first link that popped up when googling, it says D&D. As a non-player, to me it looks as authentic as the next.

If it has a big banner at the top of the page that says "Homebrew Page," it's homebrew. If it says "5e Race" in the URL, it's 5ed.

I think most non-D&D players would have recognized both of those, especially the former.

I also think following Grey Wolf's link to the protean from the start of the thread would have been a substantially more comprehensible approach to "what's the creature being debated, specifically in the context of other people claiming it does not have specified traits I think it does?" than plugging "protean" into Google and brushing past "Homebrew Page" and "5e Race."

[Throknor]

Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.

We've seen MITD read. Either a) Blindsight is in addition to "normal" sight and thus not a useful detail, b) the Giant ignored/forgot that, or c) this eliminates Uvudaam entirely.

And not for nothing, I don't have a problem with multiple votes so much as for multiple votes for things that were voted on already, especially recently. That may be just me, but there it is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The uvuudaum has eyes. Look at the image on p225 of the ELH: there's a pale blue eye behind the head-spike. Much like a bird with a closed beak, really.

But it's not a beak. It's a spike. And I agree with everyone that says that is not an eye but a spotlight.

Google other uvuudaum images and you will see no such eye. For example, here.

(It's slightly scary how many of those search results lead me back to pictures in the MitD threads. I may have to start using incognito search to remove biases)

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

But it's not a beak. It's a spike. And I agree with everyone that says that is not an eye but a spotlight.

Google other uvuudaum images and you will see no such eye. For example, here.

(It's slightly scary how many of those search results lead me back to pictures in the MitD threads. I may have to start using incognito search to remove biases)

Grey Wolf

Perhaps more to the point, even if it were to have one eye, that still isn't two eyes. Unless the MITD is two uvuudaums?

[Peelee]

Perhaps more to the point, even if it were to have one eye, that still isn't two eyes. Unless the MITD is two uvuudaums?

New theory: MitD is half uvuudaum, and half uvuudaum.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Perhaps more to the point, even if it were to have one eye, that still isn't two eyes. Unless the MITD is two uvuudaums?

(I'm fairly certain the argument here was that, like most creatures, it has bilateral symmetry and if there is one eye on one side of the spike, there is another on the other side as well)

Grey Wolf

[Aveline]

(It's slightly scary how many of those search results lead me back to pictures in the MitD threads. I may have to start using incognito search to remove biases)

Grey Wolf

I am a programmer. Whenever I use a search engine to understand a compiler or runtime error, the first dozen results are Stack Overflow or bulletin board posts by people asking about the same error, with replies asking for context. If there is an answer it's usually "do something else". (Compiler errors are usually obtuse and poorly documented so the manual is not much help in explaining the nature of the error. That's software for you.)

Search engines: the blind leading the blind.

[Peelee]

I am a programmer. Whenever I use a search engine to understand a compiler or runtime error, the first dozen results are Stack Overflow or bulletin board posts by people asking about the same error, with replies asking for context. If there is an answer it's usually "do something else". (Compiler errors are usually obtuse and poorly documented so the manual is not much help in explaining the nature of the error. That's software for you.)

Search engines: the blind leading the blind.

As much as I assert there's also an SMBC for everything, XKCD wins this round.

[Darth Paul]

Search engines: the blind leading the blind.

Or the uvuudaums leading the uvuuduams.

And not for nothing, I don't have a problem with multiple votes so much as for multiple votes for things that were voted on already, especially recently. That may be just me, but there it is.

It's not just you.
It seems like the situation is, people are trying to have a "heads I win, tails we flip again" procedure with the voting. But maybe that's just my impression.

[Kish]

Should there be any remaining lack of clarity, I formally withdraw my proposal for a vote, to be re-submitted on July 1st.

[Sir_Norbert]

It seems like the situation is, people are trying to have a "heads I win, tails we flip again" procedure with the voting. But maybe that's just my impression.

I agree that it's too soon to have another vote, but I would also say this is an unfair characterisation. No-one has proposed revoting on any of the proposals that were voted down last time.

[Keltest]

I agree that it's too soon to have another vote, but I would also say this is an unfair characterisation. No-one has proposed revoting on any of the proposals that were voted down last time.

Maybe not, but there are at least two posters who have indicated that they think their proposals only lost because the vote system did not give them a fair change.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I agree that it's too soon to have another vote, but I would also say this is an unfair characterisation. No-one has proposed revoting on any of the proposals that were voted down last time.

No, but there has been a significant uptick on changing to a voting method that would had made them win - like the idea that you shouldn't be allowed to vote for both no change and some individual changes, or the idea that anyone voting for any kind of change is automatically voting for all changes. Or that I should limit the voting to only what they want voted on, rather than open the floor for people to actually vote on what they want (like lio45's ludicrous "you should only allow votes on A&B&C, even if people clearly might prefer A or B or C", and declaring this a "substantial improvement" that would "obviously improve the FBS" when in reality is Tarquin-like restriction of options)

Grey Wolf

[thelivingmonkey]

I, on the other hand, don't think that information about the inspiration for a D&D monster should be considered when evaluating the D&D monster's candidacy. A D&D monster is its own thing, independent from whatever inspired it, and information about the inspiration is simply not relevant to the D&D monster, either in general or in the context of whether it could be MitD.

So in lieu of information that may or may not be helpful, you chose not to see it at all? It's kind of a weird philosophy to have.

"This thing has the same name and similar traits to this other thing I'm doing research about, better not look into at all."

I agree that Rich probably used a dnd monster, and that he is more likely to use the dnd version of a monster if it exists, but that doesn't mean that if there is a fact about that monster's origin that supports it as a pick that we should ignore it.

Information is what helps us learn to make better informed guesses. Seems kinda obvious but that's why I'm in favor of hearing as much as I can.

[InvisibleBison]

So in lieu of information that may or may not be helpful, you chose not to see it at all? It's kind of a weird philosophy to have.

"This thing has the same name and similar traits to this other thing I'm doing research about, better not look into at all."

I agree that Rich probably used a dnd monster, and that he is more likely to use the dnd version of a monster if it exists, but that doesn't mean that if there is a fact about that monster's origin that supports it as a pick that we should ignore it.

Information is what helps us learn to make better informed guesses. Seems kinda obvious but that's why I'm in favor of hearing as much as I can.

No, I'm saying that information about a non-D&D creature is automatically not helpful for evaluating a D&D creature. The D&D creature's description would either agree with, disagree with, or omit any information gained about the non-D&D creature. In the first case, the information about the non-D&D creature is redundant. In the second case, the D&D creature's description takes precedence. In the third case, by not including a detail about the non-D&D creature in the D&D description the detail has been implicitly discarded.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So in lieu of information that may or may not be helpful, you chose not to see it at all? It's kind of a weird philosophy to have.

"This thing has the same name and similar traits to this other thing I'm doing research about, better not look into at all."

I agree that Rich probably used a dnd monster, and that he is more likely to use the dnd version of a monster if it exists, but that doesn't mean that if there is a fact about that monster's origin that supports it as a pick that we should ignore it.

Information is what helps us learn to make better informed guesses. Seems kinda obvious but that's why I'm in favor of hearing as much as I can.

Just because D&D borrowed (or outright stole) the name and some characteristics from the classic source that doesn't make them similar. Take a look at how much they changed Greek mythology monsters. Centaurs and fauns look the same, but behave nothing like their original counterparts. Unique creatures became species, like the Medusa or the Chimera.

And specially in this particular case, the parallels between the H2GttG Haggunenons and the Hagunemnon protean are practically non-existent beyond the name steal (and note that not even that is 1-1). Heck, the mutability, which is central to both, doesn't match at all, making them just two separate types of transforming creatures that happen to have similar names.

Grey Wolf

[Aveline]

So in lieu of information that may or may not be helpful, you chose not to see it at all? It's kind of a weird philosophy to have.

"This thing has the same name and similar traits to this other thing I'm doing research about, better not look into at all."

I agree that Rich probably used a dnd monster, and that he is more likely to use the dnd version of a monster if it exists, but that doesn't mean that if there is a fact about that monster's origin that supports it as a pick that we should ignore it.

Information is what helps us learn to make better informed guesses. Seems kinda obvious but that's why I'm in favor of hearing as much as I can.

Well put.

Just because D&D borrowed (or outright stole) the name and some characteristics from the classic source that doesn't make them similar. Take a look at how much they changed Greek mythology monsters. Centaurs and fauns look the same, but behave nothing like their original counterparts. Unique creatures became species, like the Medusa or the Chimera.

And specially in this particular case, the parallels between the H2GttG Haggunenons and the Hagunemnon protean are practically non-existent beyond the name steal (and note that not even that is 1-1). Heck, the mutability, which is central to both, doesn't match at all, making them just two separate types of transforming creatures that happen to have similar names.

Grey Wolf

Also well put. But the dissonance between mythological creatures and D&D creatures is still in the reader's periphery, and it's something Rich could plausibly acknowledge/lampshade/handwave in his self-aware fantasy parody. Like, Protean-MITD shapeshifting into "Chimera, but like, the actual one." I'm sure there is a better example a D&D player (i.e. not me) could come up with.

[Jasdoif]

Just because D&D borrowed (or outright stole) the name and some characteristics from the classic source that doesn't make them similar. Take a look at how much they changed Greek mythology monsters. Centaurs and fauns look the same, but behave nothing like their original counterparts. Unique creatures became species, like the Medusa or the Chimera.

And Medusas aren't Gorgons.

[Squire Doodad]

As much as I assert there's also an SMBC for everything, XKCD wins this round.

xkcd wins ALL the rounds. Except for the best Emoji contest, Galaxy one that one.

[Squire Doodad]

Should there be any remaining lack of clarity, I formally withdraw my proposal for a vote, to be re-submitted on July 1st.

Make it June. That'd be 3 months from the last vote, I think.

Ack, double posted, my bad.

[Aspheric]

We've seen MITD read. Either a) Blindsight is in addition to "normal" sight and thus not a useful detail, b) the Giant ignored/forgot that, or c) this eliminates Uvudaam entirely.

Wait, have we? We've seen him watching Teevo, and pick up paper with writing on it, but I don't recall him ever actually reading something. There's no indication that he read the letter Miko had on her before eating it, and likewise the ritual page. I don't have the time to go through all his appearances, though, so maybe I'm missing something?

[Keltest]

Wait, have we? We've seen him watching Teevo, and pick up paper with writing on it, but I don't recall him ever actually reading something. There's no indication that he read the letter Miko had on her before eating it, and likewise the ritual page. I don't have the time to go through all his appearances, though, so maybe I'm missing something?

At the very least, he recognizes Xykon's half of the ritual when it is written down, which he would presumably be unable to do if he could not actually see the writing on it.

[B. Dandelion]

Panel one. He is definitely reading the textbook.

[Peelee]

xkcd wins ALL the rounds.

Sounds like someone needs more SMBC in their lives.

[Throknor]

Make it June. That'd be 3 months from the last vote, I think.

Ack, double posted, my bad.

Of course, at the current rate that will likely be in MITD XV: The Crystal Thread.

[Ruck]

xkcd wins ALL the rounds.

Sounds like someone needs more SMBC in their lives.

The correct answer when talking webcomics that are not OOTS is PBF.

[Kish]

That one, I confess I never heard of.

[Aveline]

That one, I confess I never heard of.

Perry Bible Fellowship is fantastic. Its jokes can be on the mature side though - not as much as Oglaf, but enough that I won't link directly to PBF on these forums.

[Peelee]

I feel like just recently I saw a comic where Wienersmith commented he was surprised PBF hadn't done already, or something along those linew.