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Thread: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
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2019-08-24, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
FC2, at least, suggests the BoVD versions of Archfiends are "the real thing" and that the FC1 and the FC2 versions themselves are "very powerful aspects, but still aspects". Only a bit of work is required to convert BoVD fiends to 3.5.
Dragon Magazine also has stats for a number of demon lords, including Demogorgon, which used BoVD as a starting point. Their versions of them tend to be a little more powerful than BoVD versions.Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-08-24 at 02:20 PM.
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2019-08-24, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
FC1 explicitly says "Some of the demon lords described in this chapter originally appeared in Book of Vile Darkness. They have been updated to conform with the revised (v3.5) D&D rules." (There's also a little section in the chapter for increasing their stats to an arbitrary level for use in an epic-level campaign, but I think that's the book punting on whether there's an "actual" power level they have)
Last edited by Jasdoif; 2019-08-24 at 02:40 PM.
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The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2019-08-24, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
It also says they are less powerful than their previous incarnations, having been redesigned to make them"end level bosses for non-epic campaigns" and provides additional rules for upgrading them to make them more suitable for epic campaigns again.
In the context of Dragon Magazine's Demonomicon rules, and of FC2's explicitly stating that their archfiends are aspects only, I think it's safe to say that FC1 archfiends should be thought of as powerful aspects normally - they're only "the real thing" in games that are capped at 20th level.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2019-08-24, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
Right. None of which supports using the 3.0 version over the 3.5 version, especially if the 3.0->3.5 conversion is compulsory in the setting....Which cuts down the number of sources Grey_Wolf_c might need to look at, which is the reason I mentioned the supersession in the first place.
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The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2019-08-24, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
The "spawn of" bit would throw everything out of whack though. Demogorgon's children generally have different stats from him. At least the few that have appeared in Dungeon or Dragon.
Main reason I'd favour BoVD over FC2? It's actually appeared in-strip (the Eye of Fear and Flame came from BOVD and Redcloak had it to hand when explaining how he created the three undead decoys.) FC2 was published much later, well after strip 100, so is less likely to be where The Giant got ideas from.Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-08-24 at 03:06 PM.
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2019-08-24, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
Good point, it's probably BoVD instead of FC2 if either were the case.
I want to point that the deadline is "about" strip 100 instead of precisely at it, so while it doesn't cover much it does mean that things that were released within a few weeks might be fine, making the Athasian Nightmare Beast a bit more plausible than it is already. Of course, that doesn't completely resolve any issues - it just makes things that are on the fence time wise sliiiightly more compatible.An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
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2019-08-27, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
Oh no, the vote happened while I was away on vacation and now I have to wait a few months again to suggest not listing 'huge' size as a con anymore...
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2019-08-28, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2019-08-28, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-08-28, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
If you are really, really uncertain, we could ask the 18th level Incarnum user, but our current sources are more reliable.
Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-08-28 at 07:15 PM.
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2019-08-28, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-08-28, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-08-28 at 07:22 PM.
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2019-08-28, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-08-28 at 07:23 PM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-08-28, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-08-30, 01:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
My money's on the Athasian Nightmare Beast.
On that subject, do we think it's possible that the Giant decided MiTD was a Nightmare Beast prior to the Athasian version's publication, and once it came out he switched and used that version instead because it fit what he wanted the monster to do better?
It doesn't contradict the wording of his statement. If hypothetically, he had decided that the MiTD was an awakened Gorgonopsid, initially chosen Gorgonops because it was the only variety of the creature in an official DnD sourcebook, but a few months after the decision was made WOTC put out Bakker's Guide to Dinosaurs, Placoderms and Proto-Mammals which included an Inostrancevia, that has access to Trenchant Political Analysis, and since that fit much better with the climatic moment of Book 7 where MiTD convinces Redcloak to abandon the plan with a thrilling 83 page speech about fishery subsidies and federal import tax than Gorgonops' Rudimentary Political Analysis ability he switched which variety of Gorgonopsid MITD was, you could argue that's still "figuring out what the monster was", even if the specific variety, statblock and all the fiddly little details used weren't determined until later
That said I think it does go against the spirit of the statement, and I don't know if that sort of "well, technically..." sort of rules lawyering fits the Giant's modus operandi for these things.Last edited by BasiliskSoldier; 2019-08-30 at 01:01 AM.
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2019-09-10, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
I wonder if MiTD could end up getting some class levels out of all that Kraagor's Tomb raiding he's been doing with Team Evil. If Xykon is getting XP maybe he is too.
Maybe he'll take a level in Paladin to be like Mr. Stiffly.
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2019-09-10, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2019-09-10, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
The real question is how Shadowdancer assassin escaped from the MiTD, he jumped into a shadow, and the only known shadow was around MiTD at the time, and survives to run away from assassinating the King of Nowhere again. The MiTD would be useless as a Shadowdancer because the shadow would have to already be someplace else (but not the democracy, he can travel to kingdoms too) for him to travel into it.
Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
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2019-09-10, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2019-09-10, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
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2019-09-11, 04:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
any bets on mitd being an unknowable creature from the far realms of whom no man may what of?
Sone form of shoggoth or other lovecraftianesque creature?
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2019-09-11, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-09-11 at 09:04 AM.
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2019-09-11, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-09-11 at 09:30 AM. Reason: somehow missed DaggerPen's bet on HH
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-09-11, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2019-09-11, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
They could be particularly well read hunters.
Maybe it’s a giant space squid. What science fiction is truly about.
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2019-09-11, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2019-09-12, 04:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
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2019-09-22, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
While that would be delightful, it also gets into the murky circumstances of "can we assume this without violating the guessing game?". It does, however, suggest that MitD is somewhat exotic but not to the point that his kind wouldn't be present in the Monster Hollow.
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2019-09-23, 04:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-09-23, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening
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But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
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