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2019-04-14, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
I don't think "pride" is the issue per se, more like "cowardice" and "guilt". Belkar has the right idea here.
Redcloak needs for all the people who died to have been martyrs to a holy cause. If the Plan was a mistake then they were just dead goblins, goblins that Redcloak himself led to ruin. He can't handle that kind of guilt. He has to keep believing that the Plan will make all those sacrifices worthwhile.
I have never read him as having invested personal pride in Xykon. Honestly it never even occurred to me to read it that way before, which makes it kind of interesting considering how long it's been.
Spoiler: Start of DarknessBut Redcloak had clearly-defined reasons for killing Right-Eye to protect Xykon, the ones that Redcloak himself laid out (if Right-Eye's scheme failed, Xykon was likely to slaughter all the goblins at camp in retaliation), and the ones that Right-Eye more accurately saw (that Redcloak would be willing to throw good lives after bad in order to avoid accepting blame for all the previous deaths). The notion that Redcloak acted to protect his own creation wasn't ever suggested.
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2019-04-14, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-04-14, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
Yeah I agree with this take. Redcloak doesn’t seem to really care that much about pride; his inability to admit mistakes seems to be a lot more tied to guilt.
I think it also kind of ties back to questions of maturity. I get the impression that he accepted the duty of being high priest and executing the plan, but lacked the maturity and leadership experience and moral courage necessary. He was put into the position unexpectedly and never learned to deal with the responsibility, nor it seems did he have any preparation for doing so. In a way it seems to kind of be a bit of an inversion of the whole “chosen one” trope playing on the idea that giving that much responsibility to a teenager is honestly a terrible idea.
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2019-04-14, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
That's what I call pride. He doesn't think of himself as cowardly or guilty because he's convinced himself his solution (being Xykon's lapdog) is best.
Spoiler: Start of DarknessI'm using the word "creation" a bit loosely, but the existence and threat of Xykon rests at Recloak's feet. Who made Xykon a lich? Redcloak. Who couldn't allow Xykon to be killed? Redcloak. He had ample opportunity to take his brother's advice - but he was too proud of his alliance with Xykon, and what he thought it meant for the Plan, to leave it.
That's what I call pride. He can't admit mistakes because he can't even see them, because he's obviously 100% correct and never ever ever makes a serious mistake.This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.
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2019-04-14, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-04-14, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
That's true, and I mostly agree with you. However, it should be noted that that happened at a time when Xykon had left without saying anything, and Redcloak didn't expect him to come back. That's important, IMO - whatever guilt or blame he felt could be transferred to Xykon for abandoning the Plan without giving him a choice.
Last edited by hrožila; 2019-04-14 at 08:27 PM.
ungelic is us
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2019-04-14, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
I think we're talking about the same thing, but it seems odd to me to call avoiding responsibility/guilt pride. I think it's fair to say that he has some sense of pride going on in that he seems to always need to feel he has the situation under control and stuff, but it makes more sense to characterize most of it as being too cowardly and immature to deal with guilt and the taking responsibility part of leadership. That's less pride and more suppressed self-loathing.
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2019-04-15, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
I don't think Redcloak has any pride in Xykon. He loathes him, he hates him. And he hates himself both for making him a lich, and needing him still. Every single time he talks about Xykon, it's with disdain or resentment. Whether to his brother, to fellow goblinoids, to Tsutsiko, etc. He calls Xykon a mistake, a tool to be manipulated, an ally of circumstance, etc. He regularly scolds Xykon directly, as well.
He dreams of the day that will make it all have been worth it, and he envisions Xykon as being an essential means to that end, but that doesn't reduce in any way the contempt he holds for him.
I don't call that pride.
Let's not forget he was drilled a holy mission into his head by his patron god himself. This isn't Miko making up all sorts of fantasies about what to do, it's a cleric with a godly artifact, a divine-given mission, and a daily confirmation to keep doing what he's doing.
There's never been indication that he's been doing any of this for personal gain. Yes, he's arrogant, but not to the point of hubris. He's putting himself in the face of danger, and in situations that overall are far from comfortable, for the sake of others (no matter how twisted that view of others may be).
If anything, we haven't seen a single other character in this strip accept so much humiliation as Redcloak has. Pride is really a bad adjective to describe him.Last edited by Goblin_Priest; 2019-04-15 at 06:53 AM.
Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2019-04-15, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
*coughs**coughs*
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-04-15, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
I'm saying Xykon's summation at the end of SoD, much as it may have been the climax of the book, may or may not have been accurate at the time and clearly isn't accurate by the end of book 5.
Xykon says a lot of things, and his accurate portrayal as having an inhuman Charisma means that most of those things will sound cool and compelling even to the audience. But he's not always right.
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2019-04-15, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
While Xykon's control over Redcloak is clearly not as tight now as it was back in DCF, I think the general ideas he put forward still apply. Redcloak will not overtly act against Xykon or endanger his alliance with him until after The Plan is complete, and Redcloak is still broken on the inside.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-04-15, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
Yes, I know.
And I continue to think you're rejecting the theme of the entire book, not just the summary at the end, and that Redcloak, at the end of Book 5, is a lot more under Xykon's control than you think he is.
Feel free to restate it yet again if you really want to, but don't expect me to have a different reaction.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-04-15, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
Xykon can keep Redcloak from blatantly defying him, but he can’t stop Redcloak from manipulating him and scheming against him. If Redcloak is delusional about how much he controls Xykon via manipulation and scheming, Xykon is delusional about how much he controls Redcloak through domination and emotional manipulation. While Redcloak wont abandon their alliance and won’t openly disobey him, Cumin is still unaware that the plan won’t benefit him at all, and Redcloak did manage to get him to sit around AC while he established a goblinoid state. That Xykon is able to use emotional manipulation and that Redcloak is broken inside are both because unlike Xykon, Redcloak does have emotions for others.
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2019-04-15, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
Xykon ordering Tsukiko to look into the ritual and then lying to Redcloak about it is solid evidence that Xykon knows Redcloak is up to something. And he charmed the MitD to get back at Redcloak, just in case. He is much more aware of how their partnership works than Redcloak.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-04-15, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
Xykon knows Redcloak is up to something; Redcloak knows Xykon is investigating. Neither of them trust the other.
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2019-04-15, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
If you look at the situation solely in terms of "who claims to be controlling whom," then Redcloak vs. Xykon is a wash.
If you look at the situation in terms of "who's getting what they want," then the current (not future) situation looks like all Xykon to me. He's working toward Redcloak's scheme, but that's literally what he asked for. He regularly grinds Redcloak into the dirt, kills everyone Redcloak claims to care about, and makes Redcloak complicit in it. Redcloak is counting on a future time when Xykon has been manipulated into performing the Dark One's ritual with him, which I don't believe has the slightest chance of actually happening in the comic. And if it never happens, Xykon has had decades of Redcloak being his obedient and horribly degraded slave while he got to have fun and increase his personal power, and it's cost him nothing he hadn't already lost the second he rose as a lich.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-04-15, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
He asked to use the snarl to rule the world, not to give the goblins' god a weapon.
I agree that it won't end up happening in the comic; clearly the heroes are going to end up stopping it. I agree that Xykon is getting more out of the situation even though there's no chance of him actually using the snarl to rule the world.
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2019-04-15, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
Yes, a lot of it is how I read it, his immaturity is a factor. He neither sought the position nor was he prepared for it, he got in over his head almost immediately and not being able to cope with the fallout properly he fell into sunk cost reasoning quite early on. But since it's not his Plan, he's just following orders, it's not really his fault, he reasons. He will deliberately avoid questioning the wisdom of the Plan itself as it has become his only refuge against his otherwise crushing circumstances and sense of having failed his first and most important task ever given to him as an adult.
I guess the word "pride" carries a somewhat narrower connotation to me. If "being convinced that one's solution to a current problem is best" is prideful, a lot of people are "proud" that I would have termed "confident" at most. Being boastful about it, convinced that the solution is better because of one's innate superiority, is more what I would think of.
A willingness to adopt a humiliating subservient position isn't something I would see as innately prideful either. A prideful person might (unhappily) do such a thing, but a humble person could as well (probably also unhappily, as being humble doesn't mean you necessarily enjoy being degraded).
Apologies but I really don't see what you're talking about. When was he was ever "proud" of the alliance or of Xykon's increased power? The fact that he was responsible for those things isn't in dispute, but that doesn't necessarily mean pride. He doesn't seem to affirmatively demonstrate anything I would associate with pride in those circumstances.
Spoiler: Start of DarknessI guess I dispute "ample opportunity" as well. Redcloak doesn't get a chance to break things off in any way that wouldn't carry their own drawbacks or major risks. He had ample opportunity to... stay imprisoned in a pit. Or join in an assassination attempt that was inherently quite risky, and turned out to be doomed. Pride can't really be isolated as the only possible factor here.
I think he views a lot of things as being mistakes. Certainly in the sense that if he had it to do over again he wouldn't make the same choices. He doesn't go on and on about his failures for the most part, it's true. Though he was visibly disgusted with himself for how he initially treated the hobgoblins.
I think of Durkon as the most humble member of the cast, but it can be true that Durkon is more humble than Redcloak and also that Redcloak has endured more humiliation than Durkon has. Not that Durkon's circumstances have been enviable either, but...Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2019-04-15 at 03:10 PM.
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2019-04-15, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
Here is my basic working definition. Pride: ignoring valid doubts and criticisms to protect an inflated self-image. You could call this a type of arrogance. This is what I mean when I say Redcloak is proud: he won't change his course of action because he's built his self-image around being the heroic savior of all goblinkind, but he's given Xykon the reins and ultimately hasn't advanced the Plan all that much. For Redcloak to change his plans would mean acknowledging that his current plans aren't working, and that would mean he's made several crucial, costly mistakes. And he just won't do that. That's what I call pride.
There is a second sense. Pride: satisfaction drawn from one's achievements. This isn't what I mean when I say Redcloak is proud.
I'm pretty sure we agree on everything but what "pride" means, though.This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.
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2019-04-15, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
Yea, this.
Durkon doesn't have the happiest story, but it's all rainbows compared to Redcloak's. I'm also not sure which part of Durkon's story involves accepting humiliation, just taking it in without saying anything, or doing things he hates or repulses him because he was asked to or for a greater cause.
I never made any comments about anyone being humble or not.
He literally is the hero of goblinkind, the avatar of their patron deity. But he's never boasted about this.
You are conflating pride with denial, but intend it in the sens of hubris.
He doesn't fail to acknowledge his failings because he thinks he's /too good/ to fail. That would be pride/hubris. He fails because he can't cope with the ramifications of his failures. That's not pride/hubris at all.Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2019-04-15, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
This is completely a semantic debate at this point - but I think denial and hubris are both forms of pride. If he subconsciously fears the notion that Xykon is bad for goblins and the Plan (which he totally is) there are other things he could be doing about it than serving Xykon. His denial about the situation he's created, and the hubris to keep going, is part of that umbrella I call pride, because it stems from an unwillingness to see oneself in a poor light.
Again, this isn't a substantive disagreement. I said "Redcloak is proud" as a counter to the idea that the cloak is stunting him. Obviously, I do not agree with. If we both agree it's his own personality that's gotten him into this position, then really we just think of the same concept somewhat differently. We're just splitting hairs here.Spoiler: SODRight-Eye's finer point that Redcloak was being deprived of perspective by the Crimson Mantle; he could still be with his community and learn about their personal struggles, if he so choseThis signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.
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2019-04-15, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-15, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
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2019-04-15, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-15, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
(A DC film).
If he's afraid to acknowledge his mistakes, wouldn't it be filed under "cowardice"?
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2019-04-15, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-04-15, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-16, 01:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
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2019-04-16, 07:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
He did choose to stick with his community. And then Xykon came back. And made it clear that there were only two kinds of goblins,
.Spoiler: SoDthose that serve him, and those that get brutally murdered by him
Also,.Spoiler: SoDRedcloak did try to threaten Xykon into submission before, but was made to realize that he's severely regret the betrayal
At this point, Redcloak has no choice but to work with Xykon, because he's not strong enough to defeat him, and there's never been any indication of him having access to a substitute arcane spellcaster.
The only way he could hope to kill Xykon at this point, would be to get Oona on board, and backstab Xykon in the caves, in the middle of an epic fight. But aside from the fact that would remove his strongest arcane spellcaster, the odds of successfully pulling that off are abysmal. The monster in the darkness is enchanted to turn on him if he does, which he may or may not know by now. Also just walking up to Oona and hitting her up with "hey, by the way, want to backstab my epic level buddy over here in the middle of what would be, to us, a life-threatening encounter?" Eh... That's asking her to take a huge risk for no obvious gain. That's also a huge risk to himself.
Making Xykon a Lich might have been a bad call, but the fact remains that he's stuck with that now.Spoiler: SoDthough honestly, beats living for all of eternity in a cave, depending on how exactly him Crimson Mantle aging effect works
He can't kill Xykon. He can't run away from Xykon. His options are pretty limited. If you really think he has a ton of good options he could turn to, that haven't already been shown to not be workable whatsoever, then feel free to present them. Because in SoD, between him and his brother, it's been fairly well demonstrated that options aren't something he's got a lot of. And in the main comic, it's been shown again and again that he makes the most of what little margin he has, such as lying to Xykon in order to extend their stay in Azure City (allowing it to be defended long enough for it to become robust enough to pursue without them).Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2019-04-16, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?
He had ample opportunity to destroy Xykon's phylactery in the main books, especially at the end of book 1. He's been supplying Xykon with tactics and strategies, which he doesn't have to do. When he recognized the Order as a serious threat to Xykon in book 5, he tried to kill them over Xykon's own objections. Redcloak's situation is not ideal but it's not totally hopeless either, and Redcloak just keeps digging himself deeper because he's convinced it's the right thing to do.
Even if Redcloak thought of Xykon as some kind of problem, all he's done about that is hide the phylactery, which is a feeble grasp at something he already had.This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.