Due to evolving technology, would you like to see RPGs use apps?

[Man_Over_Game]

Serious question here: For those who despise 'fiddly mechanics' and 'complicated rolling', that means you essentially think that things like Pazio's Starfinder space combat or D&D wild mages are bad design and you ban them at your tables right?

Personally, I think they're badly designed, yes. Every time you require a lookup, you're wasting time at the table. Spending 3 minutes to fix it might not seem like a big deal to you, but that's 3 minutes for every person at your table. Consider what would happen if every person at the table was a Wild Mage. It's the same problem, just amplified. Now, the DM can make an on-the-spot decision rather that having you do the lookup, but then he's circumventing the mechanic all together.

The solutions are either "Slow down the game", or "The mechanics don't matter", and neither are very good solutions.

Now, I don't ban them as options (I'm not a big fan of removing content), but it's a needless problem that could have been resolved with just a little better planning (like with a table at the back of the book).

Now, a more relevant, more problematic version of this issue is the Wild Shape options for 5e Moon Druids. A Moon Druid has to not only track every CR 0-3 beast and their individual monster stats (which include the 6 stats, the 6 potential saving throw proficiencies, skill proficiencies, AC, HP, special senses, special movements, multiple attacks with several having multiple special properties), but also has to keep track of what beasts they've seen to determine which ones are actually relevant. This is on top of the usual Druid spell slots, spells prepared, magic item uses, what equipment can be used while Wild Shaped per specific form, and any other resource they may have to track.

Now, this is in comparison to the Champion Fighter, who has to track their one use of Second Wind, their one use of Action Surge, and the fact that they critically hit when their dice rolls on a 19 or 20.

[LordCdrMilitant]

No.

I like it here under my rock, and I don't want digital codecies, nor digital support material.

[Max_Killjoy]

Speaking of games that require an "app" to play: https://uboottheboardgame.com/


When I was shopping for a stud finder so I could hang some things in my apartment, half of them in the stores actually required a smart phone with bluetooth, and you'd download the "app" and the finder would talk to the "app" and show this detailed analysis of what it thought it was finding behind the wall.


In both cases, what happens when the app can no longer be downloaded someday? The game becomes unplayable, and the stud finder becomes a paperweight. And unlike actual computer software, "apps" can't be downloaded and stored, in part because most phone OSes are set up to make it somewhere between hard and impossible to save downloaded installers, or install from a separate physical storage device.

[Man_Over_Game]

Speaking of games that require an "app" to play: https://uboottheboardgame.com/


When I was shopping for a stud finder so I could hang some things in my apartment, half of them in the stores actually required a smart phone with bluetooth, and you'd download the "app" and the finder would talk to the "app" and show this detailed analysis of what it thought it was finding behind the wall.


In both cases, what happens when the app can no longer be downloaded someday? The game becomes unplayable, and the stud finder becomes a paperweight. And unlike actual computer software, "apps" can't be downloaded and stored, in part because most phone OSes are set up to make it somewhere between hard and impossible to save downloaded installers, or install from a separate physical storage device.

When you paid for an app that is no longer supported (say, after it's been running for 10 years), what happens? Do you get your money back? Does another version come out? Are you SOL because it just ran through its lifetime?

[Max_Killjoy]

When you paid for an app that is no longer supported (say, after it's been running for 10 years), what happens? Do you get your money back? Does another version come out? Are you SOL because it just ran through its lifetime?

I'm pretty sure you're SOL, which is why both the game and the stud-finder are effectively examples of "intentional obsolescence".

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm pretty sure you're SOL, which is why both the game and the stud-finder are effectively examples of "intentional obsolescence".

I guess my point is, it's as bad as any other app that becomes obsolete. Which isn't the end of the world, especially if the product is available on PC.

On a similar note, I have an old Rifts book. What are my chances of being able to use it again?

[Max_Killjoy]

I guess my point is, it's as bad as any other app that becomes obsolete. Which isn't the end of the world, especially if the product is available on PC.

On a similar note, I have an old Rifts book. What are my chances of being able to use it again?

Higher than your odds of using, say, an old Firefox plugin from before Mozilla decided to unilaterally invalidate them all by fundamentally changing how plugins work in Firefox.

[Man_Over_Game]

Higher than your odds of using, say, an old Firefox plugin from before Mozilla decided to unilaterally invalidate them all by fundamentally changing how plugins work in Firefox.

Maybe a Firefox plugin wouldn't be the most stable, but I get your point.

In the end, instability is the primary concern, and there's not a universal solution to that. There are programs/apps that work on all three major platforms (Android, Apple, Windows), but maintaining that probably costs the developers of those programs a decent amount of upkeep.

I do still think it's the future, but I'd probably estimate it closer to 5-10 years rather than in the next couple.

[Max_Killjoy]

Maybe a Firefox plugin wouldn't be the most stable, but I get your point.

In the end, instability is the primary concern, and there's not a universal solution to that. There are programs/apps that work on all three major platforms (Android, Apple, Windows), but maintaining that probably costs the developers of those programs a decent amount of upkeep.

I do still think it's the future, but I'd probably estimate it closer to 5-10 years rather than in the next couple.

And as much as I hate it, that instability doesn't seem to give many people pause.

If Valve/Steam went under tomorrow, a lot of video gamers would lose access, but either they've accepted that risk, or they foolishly tell themselves "Steam isn't going anywhere". Various ebook and audio book vendors have engaged in toxic practices regarding retraction of access to purchased goods after the fact (another reason to not trust "we'll store it on the cloud for you" and "we get to update your stuff whether you want us to or not") and yet people still keep spending money with those companies.

[2D8HP]

....in comparison to the Champion Fighter, who has to track their one use of Second Wind, their one use of Action Surge, and the fact that they critically hit when their dice rolls on a 19 or 20.

The "Champion" Fighter is one of the best classes left in D&D, which is why the DEMON HORDES trying to get that class "fixed" MUST BE FOUGHT BACK!!!

[Pex]

Some of my games are played on Tabletop Simulator, and I love it. I still prefer in person play, but Tabletop is the next best thing. It has excellent props, and a player figured out how to port in our D&D Beyond character sheets which saves bandwidth. Tabletop has character sheets, but in addition to the extra bandwidth for the memory they are vulnerable to erasing what you don't want to erase.

[Knaight]

Serious question here: For those who despise 'fiddly mechanics' and 'complicated rolling', that means you essentially think that things like Pazio's Starfinder space combat or D&D wild mages are bad design and you ban them at your tables right?

I don't have to ban elements of games I'm not willing to GM, so no. I just don't run Starfinder or D&D, period.

[Florian]

Got a bit of a background in IT, ie. started building and selling personal computers, started coding in the first dot.com wave, got into network maintenance, server and router scripting after that crashed, moved to more serious programming (SAP) when I could afford to teach me those skills and exited that field to work in a business that is high in automation and digitalization. So I guess I don't really count amongst the "TechPhobes".

I think that the comparison to Horse vs. Car and pointing out Facebok and such is a bad one for this particular topic.

Take a look at computer/console games, as an example. You can basically take any of the old games I played as a kid on a Mega Drive or C64, or as a youth on my first 8086, add one of the current graphic engines and such, but it still wouldn't change the basic underlying game, because there hasn't been any progress in figuring out how to do that with regular programming and more and more computing power at your fingertips.

Even the best game can't beat the structure of one of the old "chose your own"-style books (I think there's a complete mapping for one of the old Lone Wolf books online) and that becomes readily apparent when it comes to something simple as a conversation.

So while I think that we can create some Apps that can help us ease the burden that comes along with playing a TTRPG, for example, dice rollers, good use of digital formats to deliver content, better avenues of communication to help those play that cannot find real tables, I think we are far, very far, away from using apps/tech in such a way that it could replace a GM, making the point of trying to shift there somewhat mood.

It´s not that we could calculate more complex variables, which is actually only interesting for the Sim crowd, it´s the ability of a GM to fine-adjust the game to the current situation. While yes, we could try to go as deep as simulating a real armed conflict, that wouldn't help s**t on the whole social core of the hobby, meaning that all participants must enjoy it, we have to constantly monitor "swingyness vs. challenge", (re)present NPC and the environment in some way and so on.

I would agree that we can do an "Near-RPG" like Descent or Arkham Horror just fine, but we could do a "Real RPG" only by reducing the options and freedoms, especially the communication and haggling between the participants, only by reducing the complexity level down to "Near" and then you have to ask yourself the question why you are still doing it.

Serious question here: For those who despise 'fiddly mechanics' and 'complicated rolling', that means you essentially think that things like Pazio's Starfinder space combat or D&D wild mages are bad design and you ban them at your tables right?

I think you are asking the question wrong.

If you like "task resolution" as part of the game, they are fine. If you prefer "conflict resolution" as part of the game, they are not.

An acquaintance of mine once said a very baffling thing to me: "I have more fun playing SWAT-style tactical combat using Fate Core than with any system that goes action by action". Took me some time to digest that, but it can actually be true.

[Satinavian]

It´s not that we could calculate more complex variables, which is actually only interesting for the Sim crowd, it´s the ability of a GM to fine-adjust the game to the current situation. While yes, we could try to go as deep as simulating a real armed conflict, that wouldn't help s**t on the whole social core of the hobby, meaning that all participants must enjoy it, we have to constantly monitor "swingyness vs. challenge", (re)present NPC and the environment in some way and so on.

As domeone from that "Sim crowd" i always appreciated the possibility to potentially have a computer calculate more complex rules on the fly. Theoretically you can have believable results without constant DM adjustment this way.

Practically, well... if you do use really complex rules that are easy to use because a computer does all the work, the result is still lacking. The rules might be easy to use, but they certainly are not easy to customize. If you want to change them and not brake everything, you still have to account for the underlying complex mechanics and do all that work.

As a result you get something that is hard to port to a different situation and difficult to fit onto a particular groups preferrence. That is bad for a basic rule element of an RPG.

I could see such apps for certain not central minigames. You could probably make a mass combat system that uses a computer instead of all those halfbaked "i am not really a wargame" things that are attached to too many games. Or for administrative downtime options that are handled pretty abstract anyway.


But most of the time app support is not that useful.

[geppetto]

Speaking of games that require an "app" to play: https://uboottheboardgame.com/


When I was shopping for a stud finder so I could hang some things in my apartment, half of them in the stores actually required a smart phone with bluetooth, and you'd download the "app" and the finder would talk to the "app" and show this detailed analysis of what it thought it was finding behind the wall.


In both cases, what happens when the app can no longer be downloaded someday? The game becomes unplayable, and the stud finder becomes a paperweight. And unlike actual computer software, "apps" can't be downloaded and stored, in part because most phone OSes are set up to make it somewhere between hard and impossible to save downloaded installers, or install from a separate physical storage device.

what happens is you spend 10$ and buy a new one. Its not the skies raining fire dude.

Most of us buy new game stuff all the time anyway.

[Glorthindel]

In general, no, but I have always considered that netrunning in cyberpunk games would be greatly enhanced by being able to hand it over to an app or computer programme, so the runner can play through a pre-programmed net run (set up by the DM, and maybe gated to limit how much can be done per round), while the DM handles what is happening out in the 'real world'.

[Florian]

Practically, well....

Practically, there is still enough stuff that simple formulae can't cover because they are geared towards producing general results.

For example, if we wanted to include "magical magic", as in something that is explicitly outside of the normal physical laws, it won't work beyond GM interpretation.

I assume that you know the Pegasus edition of CoC. The magic as presented in Arcana Cthuliana is very different than the one that we know from D&D/PF/DSA, because its roots directly map on fiction, while the later map on war-gaming.

[Hytheter]

The "Champion" Fighter is one of the best classes left in D&D, which is why the DEMON HORDES trying to get that class "fixed" MUST BE FOUGHT BACK!!!

I do feel that the champion has its place but I'm curious about why you feel it's one of the best classes.

[Max_Killjoy]

what happens is you spend 10$ and buy a new one. Its not the skies raining fire dude.

Most of us buy new game stuff all the time anyway.

The app-dependent stud-finders were all a lot more than $10. And even if they were $10, that's not the point. The stud finder in my dad's toolbox is 30-some years old and still works, and will still work in another 30-some years -- it was never designed to be intentionally obsolete in a few years.

As for new game stuff, that doesn't change whether the old stuff can become unusable with a random OS or software update in six months.

[Telok]

it was never designed to be intentionally obsolete in a few years.

Try not to attribute to malice what is prefectly explained by incompetence. Be ause generally there is more of the latter than the former.

As for new game stuff, that doesn't change whether the old stuff can become unusable with a random OS or software update in six months.

This is very true, and why I tend to advocate for platform independent software in cases like this. Javascript, although supremely annoying to program in, is quite good for this as it will run in any competent internet browser.

[Jay R]

I am amazed at the number of people who are prepared to critique a product before it's designed, without knowing what it will do. Many apps I currently use I would never have expected to be useful.

I suspect that a truly useful app wouldn't be one that does something we already do, but handles something we don't do because it would be too much bookkeeping.

It might be nice to have an app that could handle followers, so bigger battles wouldn't bog down. Then great Fighters could actually become war leaders.

It might be possible to use low-level curses that the player doesn't know about.

Perhaps it could allow a PC to move from one game to another without losing things the player doesn't know about.

• The wish on his sword he hasn't discovered.
• The potion of delusion that he believes is a potion of flight.
• The cursed item that only activates in the presence of an ogre mage.
• The one-time +5 against poison that he didn't know he received.

I repeat: I won't evaluate a game until I play it, or a show until I watch it. For the same good reasons, I won't evaluate an app until somebody designs it and I get a chance to use it.

[geppetto]

The app-dependent stud-finders were all a lot more than $10. And even if they were $10, that's not the point. The stud finder in my dad's toolbox is 30-some years old and still works, and will still work in another 30-some years -- it was never designed to be intentionally obsolete in a few years.

As for new game stuff, that doesn't change whether the old stuff can become unusable with a random OS or software update in six months.

****, you can tap on the wall with a glass pressed up against it and find studs if you want to be a caveman about it. You dont need a tool at all.

But if your going to buy a tool, you should buy the best one available for the job. Not whatever outdated hunk of crap is still going to be sitting around in a junk pile decades from now.

And the old books? They're effectively unusable too. Because nobody wants to play the old games. They want to play the new games. Your just feeding moths and gathering dust.

Unless society collapses mad max style the cloud isnt going anywhere. Electronic formats arent even the future anymore, they're the present. And if society does collapse well your going to have more important things to worry about then whether your stud finder app works and who your going to game with.

[Max_Killjoy]

****, you can tap on the wall with a glass pressed up against it and find studs if you want to be a caveman about it. You dont need a tool at all.

But if your going to buy a tool, you should buy the best one available for the job. Not whatever outdated hunk of crap is still going to be sitting around in a junk pile decades from now.

Because of course the tool that worked for 30 years is a piece of junk just because it's old, and the "new hawtness" tool is "the best one" just because it's new. (Note how toolbox is now a "junk pile" because it doesn't contain the very latest ultra-cool extra-expensive tools.)

Whatever.

[Rhedyn]

Anyone bring up how TheCrawler app makes DCC RPG really easy to play.

It can roll the weird dice and on all those tables you roll on. It makes the game playable for groups that don't have one book per person.

[2D8HP]

I do feel that the champion has its place but I'm curious about why you feel it's one of the best classes.

The Champion is easier for a novice to just start playing without doing a bunch of homework first, there's less 'resource management' to keep track of, and for veterans of D&D it plays the most like the base class used to.

[Friv]

At this risk of turning this into yet another fighter fight - the Champion is a great class from an ease of use perspective, and it is elegant. I agree with people that get frustrated that it is actually worse at its main job than the other Fighter subclasses, and that it could use a bit of a buff at the low levels, but any buff that you give it needs to be something that does not make it more complex.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Because of course the tool that worked for 30 years is a piece of junk just because it's old, and the "new hawtness" tool is "the best one" just because it's new. (Note how toolbox is now a "junk pile" because it doesn't contain the very latest ultra-cool extra-expensive tools.)

Whatever.

I agree. All this focus on using your phone for this isn't good; and increases cost without any increase in effectiveness, convenience, or utility.

I hear people asking to move to digital codecies a lot; and that's like the last thing I'd want to see in this hobby. An important part of wargaming, and this hobby is that you put your damn phone away when we start playing the game. This is a social event with real people. Be social.

[Hytheter]

I hear people asking to move to digital codecies a lot; and that's like the last thing I'd want to see in this hobby. An important part of wargaming, and this hobby is that you put your damn phone away when we start playing the game. This is a social event with real people. Be social.

I don't see how looking up a rule on your phone is any less social than looking it up in a rulebook. Either way you're looking down at words instead interacting, but at least on a phone you'll be done sooner.
Obviously someone who takes the chance to check their messages and browse reddit is being a little asocial but that's not inherent to the phone itself, and such a person would be likely to do so regardless of the digital tools at hand.

The Champion is easier for a novice to just start playing without doing a bunch of homework first, there's less 'resource management' to keep track of, and for veterans of D&D it plays the most like the base class used to.

Fair enough. That's basically the same reasons I consider Champion to have a place; I guess you just rate that place more highly than I do.

[Florian]

I am amazed at the number of people who are prepared to critique a product before it's designed, without knowing what it will do.

I've worked for a while with one of the most complex and customizable pieces of software that exists, especially the part of custom-tailoring it the the customer.

To give that another angle, German tax law has the dubious honor of being the most complex system on earth, beating the complexity of any given RPG, by amount of laws, rules, rulings, tables, calculation and cases of "need human input" by a degree that is mind goggling. To add a bit of perspective to that, the whole output of D&D, from earliest creation to 5e, including all source books, FAQs and errata, whatever BS you can also find, will prolly make up 5% of it, not including the "Needs human input parts".

With a bit more than 30 years in the hobby and 25 years in IT, don't you think that I have thought up enough ways to use the one to support the other over time? Stuff like Might & Magic and Wizardry were there from the beginning, but we didn't solve the "need human input" thing.

[Max_Killjoy]

I've worked for a while with one of the most complex and customizable pieces of software that exists, especially the part of custom-tailoring it the the customer.

To give that another angle, German tax law has the dubious honor of being the most complex system on earth, beating the complexity of any given RPG, by amount of laws, rules, rulings, tables, calculation and cases of "need human input" by a degree that is mind goggling. To add a bit of perspective to that, the whole output of D&D, from earliest creation to 5e, including all source books, FAQs and errata, whatever BS you can also find, will prolly make up 5% of it, not including the "Needs human input parts".

With a bit more than 30 years in the hobby and 25 years in IT, don't you think that I have thought up enough ways to use the one to support the other over time? Stuff like Might & Magic and Wizardry were there from the beginning, but we didn't solve the "need human input" thing.

30-some years of RPG experience, played and GMed and homebrewed and hacked a dozen systems, read and analyzed countless others. Almost 30 years experience working with computers -- hardware, OSes, software, the occasional random call to repair a pharmacy robot, etc.

The idea that we're all utterly unqualified to critique potential / hypothetical "apps" is... interesting, I guess.