Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker

[Mechalich]

Yeah War Profiteering is a major element of Last Jedi. It's pretty much the whole reason that Snoke rose to power. Charisma and money even though he has no actual goals he manipulated those who did.

Thing is, there's nothing actually in The Last Jedi that implies that war profiteering, or anything else, has anything to do with Snoke's rise to power. That event, and the emergence of the First Order generally, remains completely and totally unexplained. All TLJ says is that a bunch of rich people sell arms to both sides and perpetuated galaxy wide conflict.

[Devonix]

Thing is, there's nothing actually in The Last Jedi that implies that war profiteering, or anything else, has anything to do with Snoke's rise to power. That event, and the emergence of the First Order generally, remains completely and totally unexplained. All TLJ says is that a bunch of rich people sell arms to both sides and perpetuated galaxy wide conflict.

Much of it is in the way Snoke and the first order are played.

Snoke comes off as the aloof billionare lounging in his finery. He's someone that shows little interest or knowledge in how his military runs, but who we do know is paying for the military with deep financial pockets.

He places in charge of his organization sycophants and hangers on rather than the old actual military leaders because he'd rather have toadies than competent people.

Said it before, Snoke's a rich cult leader preying on the insecurities of the youth, and the search for the old glories of the older military.

[Sapphire Guard]

The thing about the war profiteering is that there hasn't been any war to profiteer off. The New Republic is demilitarised, and the FO is making their own gear in the Unknown Regions. So who is buying all these weapons, exactly? There was no war. Even the resistance's gear is mostly older Republic castoffs.

[Devonix]

The thing about the war profiteering is that there hasn't been any war to profiteer off. The New Republic is demilitarised, and the FO is making their own gear in the Unknown Regions. So who is buying all these weapons, exactly? There was no war. Even the resistance's gear is mostly older Republic castoffs.

Once again another problem with the extended material and the stuff the characters talk about in the films not meshing properly. The Films say that the First order was afraid of the New Republic's military, yet the extended material tells us the New Republic had no military.

Yet if they had no military, the reason for building starkliller base doesn't exist.

[Keltest]

Once again another problem with the extended material and the stuff the characters talk about in the films not meshing properly. The Films say that the First order was afraid of the New Republic's military, yet the extended material tells us the New Republic had no military.

Yet if they had no military, the reason for building starkliller base doesn't exist.

Im willing to call it the threat of an organized mustering of the various planetary garrisons. The republic has no standing military, but they can call out the levy and involve a whole bunch of troops from their member planets, who do have personal fleets. Taking out the leadership means that theres nobody to call out, organize or command those various planetary forces, so suddenly it fractures into many much more manageable pieces.

[Tvtyrant]

The thing about the war profiteering is that there hasn't been any war to profiteer off. The New Republic is demilitarised, and the FO is making their own gear in the Unknown Regions. So who is buying all these weapons, exactly? There was no war. Even the resistance's gear is mostly older Republic castoffs.

My theory is occupation forces. There are more habitable planets in the galaxy then the New Order has ships, and 10 quadrillion people. Having a force capable of beating peace time navies is one thing, but you have to police all those planets to keep them from making new fleets in secret. That takes mountains of hardware, which they likely pay for by demanding tribute from the captured planets.

[Malifice]

The movie have to go out of their way to try to make the audience like Poe, a thoroughly unlikely character who is effectively a Mary Sue secondary character.

I hate Poe.

His problem is he doesnt have an arc really to speak of. Other than 'learning that suicidal trench runs aren't the thing we do anymore.'

It's like the writers when dreaming the whole thing up jotted down 'Brash Pilot' and then forgot to add anything else to the character.

It's a tribute to the charisma of the actor he's not even more forgettable.

[Devonix]

His problem is he doesnt have an arc really to speak of. Other than 'learning that suicidal trench runs aren't the thing we do anymore.'

It's like the writers when dreaming the whole thing up jotted down 'Brash Pilot' and then forgot to add anything else to the character.

It's a tribute to the charisma of the actor he's not even more forgettable.

I think that lies with his character originally being just a brash pilot that gets killed in the first act of the story. Force Awakens was quickly rewritten to add him back into the story via editing and reshoots. He was supposed to just die when the tie fighter went down.

He became popular and no one knew what to do with him. I like the story they did for him but it ended up making the character completely unlikable. So they'd have to do a lot to redeem him in my eyes.

[Sapphire Guard]

The Republic had a small military (all orbiting the Hosnian system for no reason that makes sense to me, and so now destroyed), but they wouldn't be buying anything from arms dealers in casinos. There's a big fuss about selling to both sides as part of the machine, but there is no machine. It's not the US and USSR building up huge stockpiles of weapons, the Republic is disarming itself, the Resistance is poorly equipped with New Republic cast offs, and the FO is making its own gear- they're not even using empire cast offs, because all their ships are new designs.

Nobody is buying anything from arms dealers in this scenario. Maybe third party planets, or FO troops as a side channel, but that would be a very small number, which completely punctures DJ's message, about arms sales driving the machine.

It's pretty funny that Disney is making movies complaining about battles between good and evil continuing as long as it's profitable, though. Especially in a franchise they bought and then made sequels to.

[Frozen_Feet]

The thing about the war profiteering is that there hasn't been any war to profiteer off. The New Republic is demilitarised, and the FO is making their own gear in the Unknown Regions. So who is buying all these weapons, exactly? There was no war. Even the resistance's gear is mostly older Republic castoffs.

It is stated outright that FO and Resistance were the ones buying this stuff. Remember, the Resistance was basically Leia's pet project, not proper part of the New Republic's military. It was founded in response to New Republic's failure to take FO seriously.

Yes, you can characterize the Resistance's gear as "older Republic castoffs". That's not synonym for "free". In a reasonable world, someone was paid to make and supply those things. It is not particularly odd idea that the same dudes supplying the Resistance would be supplying the FO also, or vice versa.

And now there most certainly is a war going on, with big bucks to be had.

[Sapphire Guard]

The Resistance fleet is tiny, and if you look at the history of those ships, most of them are stolen from scrapyards or fell off the back of transports thanks to sympathetic NR Senators.

http://https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Resistance_navy

The FO might be buying some, but they're making most of their own gear.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Project_Resurrection

What war?

[Keltest]

The Resistance fleet is tiny, and if you look at the history of those ships, most of them are stolen from scrapyards or fell off the back of transports thanks to sympathetic NR Senators.

http://https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Resistance_navy

The FO might be buying some, but they're making most of their own gear.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Project_Resurrection

What war?

Both groups still need parts and materials. The FO could conceivably be harvesting raw materials out in their backwater territories, but unless the have massive industrial complexes set up out in the nether regions of space, theyre still working with actual manufacturers turning those materials into parts and those parts into ships. You cant just make a star destroyer out on a desolate moon, you need dedicated shipyards to make it happen.

[Devonix]

Once again some of this stuff goes against the stuff actually said in the films. "

We have scenes where we are told that the Republic is secretly supplying Leia with Funds, helping her to finance the Resistance, just as we are told that the Resistance and First Order are purchasing ships from 3rd parties. We're flat out told these things. We're shown manifestos of ship orders.

That the first order and Resistance buy from 3rd party arms dealers is a fact of the story.

[Frozen_Feet]

@Saphire Guard: what about that? Those ships didn't get on the transports of "sympathetic senators" without someone building them. Ships don't spontaneously come into existence, someone made them, someone paid for them.

Same goes for FO. Yeah, they made their "own" ships. Totally without hiring anyone to do it and without paying anyone for the blueprints. The actual details of the "Project Resurrection" outright name some of their allies and it is not at all hard to imagine that money exchanged hands somewhere down the line.

Nothing in there is mutually exclusive with TLJ.

What war?

The one that exist between FO and whatever will pass for the Resistanc tomorrow. You know, the one that'll likely be a good portion of the trilogy's third movie.

[Blackhawk748]

Im willing to call it the threat of an organized mustering of the various planetary garrisons. The republic has no standing military, but they can call out the levy and involve a whole bunch of troops from their member planets, who do have personal fleets. Taking out the leadership means that theres nobody to call out, organize or command those various planetary forces, so suddenly it fractures into many much more manageable pieces.

Even i they could, their Ship of the Line (the MC-85) is so far behind the curve of firepower i'd rather have a pair of Nebulon B Frigates. And those are 35 years old.

The next problem is, is that planetary garrisons have no reason to have a ship over the size of a Corvette as they will be fighting pirats the most. A very rich planet may have sprung for a Frigate, which will still be obliterated by a FO Resurgent Star Destroyer.

Seriously, those Star Destroyers are disgusting. The fact that they have Point Defense systems actually makes taking them out without a roughly equal battleship incredibly difficult as they can protect themselves from bombing runs, unlike their Imperial predecessors.

The Republic had a small military (all orbiting the Hosnian system for no reason that makes sense to me, and so now destroyed), but they wouldn't be buying anything from arms dealers in casinos. There's a big fuss about selling to both sides as part of the machine, but there is no machine. It's not the US and USSR building up huge stockpiles of weapons, the Republic is disarming itself, the Resistance is poorly equipped with New Republic cast offs, and the FO is making its own gear- they're not even using empire cast offs, because all their ships are new designs.

Nobody is buying anything from arms dealers in this scenario. Maybe third party planets, or FO troops as a side channel, but that would be a very small number, which completely punctures DJ's message, about arms sales driving the machine.

It's pretty funny that Disney is making movies complaining about battles between good and evil continuing as long as it's profitable, though. Especially in a franchise they bought and then made sequels to.

Really my biggest issue with that scene is that they keep calling them arms dealers, like they have a warehouse full of TIEs or something. Wouldn't the New Republic and the First Order be buying from massive coporations with military contracts?

Both groups still need parts and materials. The FO could conceivably be harvesting raw materials out in their backwater territories, but unless the have massive industrial complexes set up out in the nether regions of space, theyre still working with actual manufacturers turning those materials into parts and those parts into ships. You cant just make a star destroyer out on a desolate moon, you need dedicated shipyards to make it happen.

The Supremacy was literally designed to do just that, so I wouldn't be surprised if they had other mining fleets. One of the things that really irked me in TLJ was the fact that the Supremacy showed up in that battle. It's a flyng factory, you morons! Get it out of there!

ALso, they totally can make a Star Destroyer out of a desolate moon, the Supremacy specifically can do that. That ship is insane

[The Glyphstone]

Its also Snoke's flagship for some reason. Youd think he would want a more prestigious taxi than a glorified smelter, but at least it explains its presence in battle.

[Devonix]

Its also Snoke's flagship for some reason. Youd think he would want a more prestigious taxi than a glorified smelter, but at least it explains its presence in battle.

It feels like the current group of tech spec books break the story just as much as the old tech spec books.

[Blackhawk748]

It feels like the current group of tech spec books break the story just as much as the old tech spec books.

I've honestly never heard of issues this big from the old tech books. The Mon Cal Cruiser and the Imp II were roughly analogous to each other. The MC 85 and the Resurgent are very definitely not and that's what causes these problems.

Plus how they layout the stats of the new ships are randomly vague and crap is incredibly annoying. Battle Ships have had their weapons loadout laid out in batteries and now for some reason they just list X number of guns. Its weird.

[Ashen Lilies]

Its also Snoke's flagship for some reason. Youd think he would want a more prestigious taxi than a glorified smelter, but at least it explains its presence in battle.

A glorified, 60km wide smelter. Of course he's going to park himself in the biggest, baddest thing they've got, and the fact that it's a factory ship makes it logical home base. It's like having a flying throne world.

Though, we may have identified why there isn't a "Mrs. Snoke"...

[Devonix]

I've honestly never heard of issues this big from the old tech books. The Mon Cal Cruiser and the Imp II were roughly analogous to each other. The MC 85 and the Resurgent are very definitely not and that's what causes these problems.

Plus how they layout the stats of the new ships are randomly vague and crap is incredibly annoying. Battle Ships have had their weapons loadout laid out in batteries and now for some reason they just list X number of guns. Its weird.

How many times did we get contradictory information on the stat books. Ships being different sizes, different crew compliments. Differences between RPGs and Novelizaions and games

When it comes down to it a person making a starwars movie knows just as much and cares just as much about the details of the ships they're using, ad a person making a film about naval battles, IE not very much and nor should they.

If I'm watching a naval battle I don't care if the crew compliment is wrong, or the gunner count is off.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

If I'm watching a naval battle I don't care if the crew compliment is wrong, or the gunner count is off.

But I do care if they get it ballpark right or at least ballpark realistic. A carrier with a crew of just 3 is stupid and I know it's stupid, so if someone is trying to take out the crew of a carrier with just a knife and succeeds because there are only 3 people on board that just makes no sense. I'll be thinking "what does this guy think he's doing?" right up until he declares victory.

Of course naval battles are not space opera. In Star Wars the only thing I'm expecting is that they keep things ballpark consistent. If at one point it's difficult but doable to manually drop out of light speed in a span of just kilometers (giving you on the order of a hundred thousendth of a second to execute the manouvre, patently ridiculous in real life) I expect them not to show me a pilot of a similar quality colliding with another space plane moving at normal people speeds without being able to do something about it.

Okay, now that I hear that in my head I actually don't expect Star Wars people to be anywhere near that consistent, but it often helps improve the experience when makers are.

[Devonix]

But I do care if they get it ballpark right or at least ballpark realistic. A carrier with a crew of just 3 is stupid and I know it's stupid, so if someone is trying to take out the crew of a carrier with just a knife and succeeds because there are only 3 people on board that just makes no sense. I'll be thinking "what does this guy think he's doing?" right up until he declares victory.

Of course naval battles are not space opera. In Star Wars the only thing I'm expecting is that they keep things ballpark consistent. If at one point it's difficult but doable to manually drop out of light speed in a span of just kilometers (giving you on the order of a hundred thousendth of a second to execute the manouvre, patently ridiculous in real life) I expect them not to show me a pilot of a similar quality colliding with another space plane moving at normal people speeds without being able to do something about it.

Okay, now that I hear that in my head I actually don't expect Star Wars people to be anywhere near that consistent, but it often helps improve the experience when makers are.

I see it in ways like this. Early Doctor who had the actor playing the doctor very particular about what all the buttons on the console did. As in he always made certain that pushing the same button did the same thing any and every time he did it. To the point that if it were real he'd actually know how to fly the damn thing.

As opposed to something like Star Trek where the same button can do any number of things.

While I like the first, I don't expect or need it in my story. Same goes for crew compliments and weapon yeild for my scifi films.

[hamishspence]

I've honestly never heard of issues this big from the old tech books. The Mon Cal Cruiser and the Imp II were roughly analogous to each other. The MC 85 and the Resurgent are very definitely not and that's what causes these problems.

It's possible that, since the Fleet was massively downsized, ships like the MC-85 from TLJ had most of the weaponry stripped off before being sold to civilians, in a similar fashion to Booster Terrick's Star Destroyer Errant Venture in Legends, and that's why the listed armament on the MC-85 is extremely low - because that particular MC-85 is a civilian one that the Resistance has managed to obtain.

[The Glyphstone]

It feels like the current group of tech spec books break the story just as much as the old tech spec books.

Is Curtis Saxton still involved in the ICS books? That might explain things if he is.

[hamishspence]

Is Curtis Saxton still involved in the ICS books? That might explain things if he is.

Nope - he hasn't been involved since Complete Locations, back in 2005. Which is why none of the new ICS books talk about energy figures. No "200 gigaton quad turbolasers" no "more energy in the shields than a G-type star" or anything like that.

According to those on the Jedi Council Forums who seem to be in the know, Lucasfilm's refusal to canonise his Endor Holocaust theory (that the ecosystem of Endor was utterly destroyed in the DS2 explosion) was what made him stop writing for them.

The size he introduced for the DS2 in Legends (900 km) has also been decanonised and replaced with 200 km, so it would surprise me if he returns.

[Blackhawk748]

It's possible that, since the Fleet was massively downsized, ships like the MC-85 from TLJ had most of the weaponry stripped off before being sold to civilians, in a similar fashion to Booster Terrick's Star Destroyer Errant Venture in Legends, and that's why the listed armament on the MC-85 is extremely low - because that particular MC-85 is a civilian one that the Resistance has managed to obtain.

Except that's not what happened. I made sure to check the armament of the MC 85 and not the Raddus itself, so that's the stock armament. They even point out that the ship is undergunned for it's size, which is a criminal understatement. That thing would be undergunned for a ship 1/4 it's size.

[Rodin]

But I do care if they get it ballpark right or at least ballpark realistic. A carrier with a crew of just 3 is stupid and I know it's stupid, so if someone is trying to take out the crew of a carrier with just a knife and succeeds because there are only 3 people on board that just makes no sense. I'll be thinking "what does this guy think he's doing?" right up until he declares victory.

Of course naval battles are not space opera. In Star Wars the only thing I'm expecting is that they keep things ballpark consistent. If at one point it's difficult but doable to manually drop out of light speed in a span of just kilometers (giving you on the order of a hundred thousendth of a second to execute the manouvre, patently ridiculous in real life) I expect them not to show me a pilot of a similar quality colliding with another space plane moving at normal people speeds without being able to do something about it.

Okay, now that I hear that in my head I actually don't expect Star Wars people to be anywhere near that consistent, but it often helps improve the experience when makers are.

Part of the problem here is that "ballpark realistic" looks downright unrealistic to moviegoers. While the carrier with a crew of 3 is ridiculous hyperbole, are you really saying you want to see the carrier's ACTUAL crew size of 6000 in every movie? Because that's how many people are on a modern-day aircraft carrier. When you get into the realm of Sci-Fi, you get ridiculousness in both directions. Star Destroyers supposedly have 37000 people on them, each. I'm not going to debate how realistic that is (because I really don't care), but that number is sufficient from a movie-going perspective to be "approaches infinity". The same applies in Star Trek to the various Enterprises, which have absolutely tiny crews for the size of the vessel. Even then, we only see a couple dozen in any given episode, and most of the time over a dozen of those are disposable Ensign Rickys who only exist to have a console explode in their face.

It's a level of verisimilitude that most people just don't care about, and isn't necessary for writing a decent story.

[hamishspence]

Except that's not what happened. I made sure to check the armament of the MC 85 and not the Raddus itself, so that's the stock armament.

That's Wookieepedia though - a secondary source rather than a primary source. In the actual ICS: The Last Jedi book, it is ambiguous as to whether the armament is only the "Raddus-specific armament" or if it's the standard armament for a stock MC-85.

[Peelee]

It's a level of verisimilitude that most people just don't care about, and isn't necessary for writing a decent story.

Oh have they decided to start writing decent stories now? I'll take "how to get both sides to dogpile" for 600, Alex!

[Mando Knight]

Really my biggest issue with that scene is that they keep calling them arms dealers, like they have a warehouse full of TIEs or something. Wouldn't the New Republic and the First Order be buying from massive coporations with military contracts?

That's who the arms dealers are. The guys selling surplus, salvage, and stolen weapons to random individuals are mostly the small fry compared to the Kuati sales manager who scores a deal for a thousand more walkers from the First Order, or the Taim & Bak logistics supervisor who arranges to "lose" a shipment of a hundred turbolasers where the Resistance might "find" them.