Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker

[Peelee]

They do have to be organized though, or at least coordinated. Otherwise it's just multiple scattered and independent revolts, and can be stamped out in detail.

Are you suggesting that the rebels form some sort of alliance?

What if she (like Anakin before her) had no Father?

That was bad enough to begin with. If stuff is going to be retreaded, we can at least hope for only retreading the good parts.

[Psyren]

You really do like these odd and irrelevant non sequitors, don't you? Or are you claiming that those people go to and like the movies primarily because of Rey, rather than the more likely explanation that it's because it's STAR WARS? Because there's no other way that means that things wouldn't work out for my point of view.

EDIT: Let me make it absolutely clear: most people do not go to see these Star Wars movies just to see Rey. That includes people who like her. There are more reasons to go to them than that. My claim is that this teaser only really strongly excites those who DO primarily go to see these movies because of her.

In which case either (a) she is interesting and that plays a role in the films' success or (b) whatever lack of interest/appeal you claim there to be, has zero relevance for how the movies do. Either way, putting her in the trailer is the right call and your statement doesn't matter.

If you use that to make it so that the grassroots movement doesn't need organized force, then this will mean that in this movie there won't be much need for the Resistance either. You know, the group that the movie is supposed to be focusing on, that contains that Rey person who's supposed to be the protagonist and so have the most agency?

The Resistance pretty clearly lit the spark, which includes important developments like Snoke getting 86'd. That doesn't mean they have to drive everything about the entire conflict.

[The Glyphstone]

Are you suggesting that the rebels form some sort of alliance?

That's just crazy talk.

[Daimbert]

In which case either (a) she is interesting and that plays a role in the films' success or (b) whatever lack of interest/appeal you claim there to be, has zero relevance for how the movies do. Either way, putting her in the trailer is the right call and your statement doesn't matter.

Um, if most people go to the movies for other reasons than to see Rey then a teaser trailer which is aimed to generate excitement to go see the movie should include more of those reasons than just including Rey, right? Otherwise, you'd have to be claiming that my argument is that the teaser is pointless, which it isn't.

Again, my main point was that they think that Rey is a bigger draw than she is to make her so prominent in the teaser (again, she's not merely "in it"; she dominates it).

The Resistance pretty clearly lit the spark, which includes important developments like Snoke getting 86'd. That doesn't mean they have to drive everything about the entire conflict.

But they DO have to drive this specific movie, which is supposed to wrap all that up. That means giving them important things to do IN THIS MOVIE that lead to that, not merely relying on what was done in TLJ.

[Lethologica]

My claim is that this teaser only really strongly excites those who DO primarily go to see these movies because of her.

Unless, of course, you get excited by:
-Force ghost Luke
-Kylo practicing kintsugi on his worldview
-Lando
-Carrie Fisher's last appearance
-Palpatine

One can suggest the teaser spent more time on Rey in the desert than necessary without going overboard. (Or, I suppose, debating the threshold for "real strong excitement" to death to argue that the above doesn't count.)

[Daimbert]

Unless, of course, you get excited by:
-Force ghost Luke
-Kylo practicing kintsugi on his worldview
-Lando
-Carrie Fisher's last appearance
-Palpatine

I agree that some of these would work for most fans (I disagree with the second one). I think that Rey's scene should have been truncated and more time spent on things like this as well as characters like Finn and Poe.

[Psyren]

Um, if most people go to the movies for other reasons than to see Rey then a teaser trailer which is aimed to generate excitement to go see the movie should include more of those reasons than just including Rey, right? Otherwise, you'd have to be claiming that my argument is that the teaser is pointless, which it isn't.

Pretty sure it did include more than Rey.

Again, my main point was that they think that Rey is a bigger draw than she is to make her so prominent in the teaser (again, she's not merely "in it"; she dominates it).

A main point you have yet to support at all, even now.

But they DO have to drive this specific movie, which is supposed to wrap all that up. That means giving them important things to do IN THIS MOVIE that lead to that, not merely relying on what was done in TLJ.

But it's pretty clear that's happening. I doubt they just stumbled across the old Death Star's husk by chance (and Palps' creepy laughter), they're either looking for something or trying to stop something.

[HMS Invincible]

I agree that some of these would work for most fans (I disagree with the second one). I think that Rey's scene should have been truncated and more time spent on things like this as well as characters like Finn and Poe.

Look, you don't want her to be the main character we get it. Do you have anything else to contribute to the discussion?

[Daimbert]

Look, you don't want her to be the main character we get it. Do you have anything else to contribute to the discussion?

Don't blame me for this. I gave four points in my original post. Everyone else jumped on this one because they can't conceive of Rey not being a character that people just find compellingly interesting. You want further contributions? Go talk about the other points in that post, then.

EDIT: Actually, to be fair to everyone, even Psyren, there was some discussion over the ending of the trilogy point and the accumulated wisdom point, all around the retconning/ignoring TLJ point. But then that should answer the question about other things to discuss as well.

[zimmerwald1915]

The Resistance pretty clearly lit the spark

And let's not even get into how bass-ackwards what whole conception is.

[Psyren]

And let's not even get into how bass-ackwards what whole conception is.

In our world it might be; we don't have space wizards who get guided to hope through visions already occupying positions of military or political power here. (At least, not that I know of.)

[Fyraltari]

Daimbert, I apologize if what I wrote under this comes across as demeaning, I often let my words become harsher than they should, but your "die-hard fans" and "[grin]" get on my nerves. Also Notre-Dame de Paris is on fire right now so I'm not really in a good mood, tonight.

A Mon Cal Cruiser has comparable firepower to the of an Imp II SD, the advantage the Imp IIs have is that they double as carriers while the Mon Cals don't. This is evened out by the fact that Mon Cal Cruisers have more advanced shielding systems than an Imp II. On top of this, the ships are of comparable size so the fight is far more equal.

Meanwhile, while the MC-85 (the Raddus) is about the same size as a Resurgent, the thing is comically undergunned for a 3.4km long ship. It has 18 heavy turbolasers, 18 heavy ion cannons, 12 point defence cannons and 8 proton torpedo launchers. Those are individual guns, not batteried, just guns. To compare, the Nebulon B Frigate has 12 Turbolaser and 12 laser cannons as well as proton torpedo launchers. Its also only 300 meters long. To reitterate, the MC-85, a ship 10 times larger than a Nebulon B, has scarcely a third more firepower.

To compare it to its FO counterpart is laughable. Yes it has very nice shields and has four squadrons on board compared to a Resurgent's two, but when you are outgunned 41:1 none of that matters. Its shields would have to be more powerful by such a ridiculous magnitude to make up a difference of that kind that it would break any level of believability. And the MC-85 was the Republic Navy's standard ship of the line.

How, in the name of Thrawn's bright blue *** was the New Republic ever a threat to the FO with a firepower discrepency of this kind? They would have to outnumber the FO fleet by five or six to one in order to start making up this kind of deficit, yet they reduced their military by 90%? They were doomed even before we bring Starkiller Base or the Supremacy Factory Ship into account.

The New Republic disarme because it didn't consider the FO would attack. Individual systems have their own fleet. Sure none of them have the oomph to take on the FO alone, but all together banding behind the New Republic? It doen't matter if your ships have twelve times more firepower than the best ships on the other side if they have a hundred times more ship than you do. Seriously, the FO ambitions to do what nobody has done in the history of the Far Far away Galaxy: conquering it. simply having the biggest ships around isn't enough for that.

Spoiler: Daimbert

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Assuming there IS a time skip, of course. My impression was that there was one between TFA and TLJ as well and was very disappointed when there WASN'T one, even of a couple of months.

Why wouldn't there be? A vast portion of your complaints rest almost untirely on the notion that there will be no time-skip so why make that assumption?

I agree that there might be her training with Luke as a Force Ghost, but this is the sort of thing I'm talking about (whether or not it really counts as a retcon): that training was supposed to happen, following the original narrative, with Luke in TLJ, it didn't happen, and now they have to scramble to get things into the situation they need them to be in to do what, at least, Abrams originally wanted this film to do.

That has nothing to do with a retcon. A retcon is pretending the events of a previous installment did not happen or happened differently than they did or contradicting some piece of exposition that was intended to be true at the time ("I am your father" was a retcon, for example). Doing thing differently than what was originally planned (using the word loosely) is not a retcon.

I've listed a number of things that are sharp turns from what TLJ at least led us to believe and a number of tone shifts that seem to be pretty much trying to give the impression that they aren't going to do what TLJ did or carry on that tone/narrative. This was in reply to you seemingly attempting to refute that by arguing that the breathing at the start of the teaser was a callback to TLJ. Given that that is quite reasonably being used ironically to telegraph the subversions, that doesn't count as an argument against anything else I've said.

Have you?

The things that struck me about the trailer:
1)It's clearly retconning TLJ. Luke saying that they prepared her the best they could with thousands of years of Jedi lore is both pretty much false -- he didn't train her much at all and the best she has are those books -- AND contradicts Yoda's comment that they weren't useful to her anyway. Yes, there are ways to explain that away, but it clearly moves away from the theme. This holds for a number of things as well, including giving Luke a prominent voiceover in the trailer and even the title that hints at Rey being a Skywalker or at least something new coming out of that.

2) I don't think they've learned that outside of some specific groups of fans Rey's not that interesting a character. The focus on her and how awesome she is is not selling the movie to me.

3) I have little faith in them using Palpatine properly, but him being a corrupting Force Ghost on the order of Exar Kun could work.

4) Without seriously retconning TLJ, it will be ridiculous if this is the end of the saga because the First Order is too powerful and the Resistance too weak for one movie to settle that even to the level of Return of the Jedi, and even changing the leader won't realistically -- even in Star Wars -- reform it that quickly. There are options, but all of them are ridiculous (the Remnant, for example).

This really does seem to be shifting the tone away from TLJ back to something closer to the rest of the movies, but I didn't think TFA did that well and have no confidence that this movie can pull it off, especially given the trailer.

(1) As we've said can be true in a number of ways (force-ghost training, overly dramatic description of teaching by example that follows directly from what Yoda said)
(2) See below.
(3) Nothing to do with TLJ or TFA
(4) Again time-skips.

Your only points about retcons are 2 and 4 and we've been discussing that a lot.

That "short scene" takes up one minute is entirely a Rey scene AND a scene that focuses on her awesome abilities rather than anything about her character or her transition to a Jedi, as we already know that she can do amazing things with the Force. Again, if you are a big fan of Rey that will interest you, but if you aren't that's not really going to do much for you.

Yeah, it does. She's wearing white, signifying her firm transition to the light side just like Luke's and Anakin's clothes did way back when (Anakin always wearing ddarker browns than the other Jedi and full-on black for the last film, while Luke transitionning from white to grey to black but with an inside lining of white, etc). She's calm and in control, using a reforged lightsaber: again, coming of age is done time for the heroics, and as the narration (who until then had been reinforcing the whole "you're a jedi now") mentions her fight Kylo comes in into his TIE to fight. So yeah, that's what the movie is about : the protagonists, finished their journey : Rey is a Jedi, Finn a Rebel scum and Poe a leader and it is time to take the fight to the bad guys.
And yes, one minute is ashort scene. That's what most teasers are: narration and a short scene to set the tone and flashes. Take the endgame teaser for exemple: Iron Man recording a message took most of it. Just having flashes would be weird.

I'm actually not claiming that. I'm claiming that teasers are there to generate excitement, but that much focus on Rey will not generate excitement in anyone who isn't that big a fan of Rey.

I don't even. So you are not complaining about what you can guess the movie will be about from the teaser, you are complaining about how they made the teaser to represent a movie you haven't seen. What?

They wanted to see other things that don't happen because that scene takes up half the teaser. There ARE other things in there that could do it -- the Luke voiceover, Lando, the Emperor laughing -- but in general it looks like they're putting their excitement eggs in the Rey basket and my comment -- that no one has really addressed -- is that she isn't an interesting enough character to most fans for that to work.

But there is nothing to adress. You said she isn't an interesting character, but you didn't give any argument for that, I'm not interested (and I don't think anyone here is) in going "Nuh-hu! -Yeah-hu) for fifty pages. If you want to make a case that she is objectively not interesting then make it, if not then accept that your opinion isn't more valid than anybody else's.

To make it more explicit, they should have spent less time on that scene and more time showing the other protagonists, characters, and situations. I'm not saying leave Rey out, but focusing the trailer so strongly on her requires people to care more about her than I think most people who might go to see the movie do.

Again, that's weird. How long do you think is short enough? 40s? 30s? 20s?

Well, if you find her compelling enough that her presence doing cool things in a teaser is enough to get you excited about the movie, then you're pretty much a die-hard Rey fan by definition [grin]. But I think the issue is that it seems that you think that I'm using that as a criticism of those fans or points. I'm not (although, to be fair, there's enough people who use it as a negative that I probably should have stuck with my original comment that didn't mention "die-hard").

People "see it as a negative" because it is an insult:
Die-hard: strongly or fanatically determined or devoted die-hard fans especially : strongly resisting change a die-hard conservative.
And I don't know if your little "[grin]" are meant to be friendly or obnoxious but coupled with that kind of talk it makes you look condescending and smug.

I'm just saying that fans who don't like Rey that much and/or like other things better are going to find the teaser disappointing,

I'm going to make a wild prediction: "people who don't like the protagonist, won't like the film".

and that fans who like Rey that much are in the minority because as a character herself she isn't that interesting. For the most part, those who really like her -- and, to be fair, really DISLIKE her -- are going to feel that way for subjective reasons, that for some reason she clicks with them. But that's probably not and doesn't seem to be the majority. And few if any have even tried to address that, making honest conversation around that difficult, wouldn't you say?

Ah, so do you have an objective reason to present? Because until you do, there won't be a discussion. I mean, you just say "she isn't interesting" as if it was a self-evident truth, but it isn't, so yo have to make a case before people can discuss it.

This is a possibility, and they might use that ... but again this goes against how TLJ presented it. If this is what TLJ wanted us to think possible, they should have hinted at that in the movie by having someone suggest it even if the others reacted glumly to it as if it's not that likely. But the impression is that their allies were not willing to intervene at any point, even to pick them up.

"Pick them up" is weird way to phrase "rescue from the pople with the planet killing weapons"

If this movie takes your move, it will again seem far too quick and easy given how TLJ ended. At the end of TLJ, the impression is that there is a lot of work to do to rebuild the Resistance. All of that work miraculously going way would work to allow them to complete it in this movie but will be jarring if anyone wants to watch the entire trilogy.

Yeah, and at the end of ANH, there was a lot of work to do to rebuild the Rebellion. That work "miraculously" happened by the time of ESB. And by miraculously I mean that there was a time-skip. This is what time-skips are for. It wasn't jarring i ESB because it was established that time had passed, why would it be jarring in this one.

That's my point here: TLJ left it so that there's no way to credibly end the arc at the end of the trilogy in victory without upending TLJ. And whether you call that a retcon or not, the tone shift will indeed matter.

Again, no. The end of TLJ was hopeful, it was saying that vilains failed to destroy the heroes when they had the chance and so the Heroes will fight them next time. Just like ESB. Having the heroes win a the end of RoS wouldn't be more of tone shift than the end of RotJ was. the only diffenrence is that rather than the six month between ESB and RotJ it might be three or six years between TLJ and RoS.

But TLJ sets those people up as no longer having any military presence to add to the struggle and that the political figures couldn't even convince their purported allies to simply come and pick them up when they believed they had dodged the FO fleet.

They never beleived they had dodged the FO fleet (except for the moment between they left the Raddus and the Supremacy started firing o the shuttles and they wren't sending any message then.

I agree with you that they can and are the natural ones to rebuild the Resistance and draw in new allies. But from this starting point they simply can't build it up quickly enough to end the trilogy in the same manner as RotJ ended the OT. And a time skip to do so will leave the interesting alliance building out of the movie and seem simply like a contrived way to return to a status quo that TLJ overturned.

Basically you seem to want a movie that, unlike any other Star Wars movie, is about the logistics of building an army and gathering allies rather than the personal journeys and mythical clash of good and evil. You are setting yourself up for disappointment.

There is hope that the Resistance can rise again, but for now it's devastated and incapable of meaningfully opposing the FO. Yes, the theme is that they aren't finished, and I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that, for now, the FO has won and will dominate the galaxy. Essentially, we're at the end of RotS, not TESB.

And you know what ther was at the end of RotS? I'll give you a clue, it starts with "t" and rhymes with "ime skip". In all seriousness now, the Resistance managed two serious blows to the FO, their high command was halved with the survivors hating each other's guts and they have the support of no-one but themselves. That's a very different situation than where the Empire was at the end in RotS.

The Rebellion had a fleet at the end of TESB, and there wasn't really any significant rebuilding in that time skip because, as the TESB opening crawl establishes things aren't going well for them. And again the end of TESB establishes that they were in far better shape going into the endgame of RotJ than the Resistance is going into the purported endgame of this movie. To build up from where they are to where they are now IS interesting, involving them having to actually win battles outright and convince the others to go along with them. You can put that in supplemental material on the argument that Star Wars movie fans are less interesting in those sorts of things, but that still leaves you needing to explain how it happened. None of that was necessary for the build-up between Star Wars and RotJ. Especially since until Rogue One came out the overall impression was that their victory in the crawl left their fleet at least somewhat intact. The only thing in ANH that belies that is the ships not being at The Battle of Yavin, but that's easily explained -- and I think one EU source did so explicitly -- by saying that once they realized that the Imperial fleet wasn't coming and that the Death Star was impervious to capital ships they sent them away. So we didn't really question where they got the fleet from because we assumed they started with one and then added as appropriate. The Resistance, however, is starting from scratch and yet needs to be able to build a big enough fleet to take on the FO in a climactic battle. That's hard to do starting from TLJ without making it contrived.

I still really don't see what would be so unbelievable in them ahving gathered a an arlyin three years or however long.
I mean, the Rebellion only having thirty fighters and some bombers to its name is what is implied by ANH and the idea that the Rebellion had bigger ships but sent them away is never presented in the movies, so that would be some manner of retcon. Not really a retcon, but "they totally had a fleet, it was just off-screen and never brought up, the entire movie" feels retconnier than "they didn't have a fleet but this is three years later and now they do"

He would be deliberately letting Luke believe that the texts weren't important and that Rey had what she needed without being able to rely on their wisdom. That strongly suggests that that's the point he's trying to get across. While he COULD do that to teach that lesson to Luke, that wouldn't align with his comment simply implying that she already had the books. So we'd have to drop that interpretation, but then it again implies that the accumulated wisdom wasn't that important, but the teaser voiceover implies that it was important.

He's telling him that the book aren't as important as a teacher's fallings. It isn't a binary between "the books are the most important things ever" and "the books are completely unimportant". Even without the shot of Rey ahving the books later he still says they hold wisdom.

Well, I wasn't quoting him, you know [grin]. But he does flat-out say that there was nothing in those books that Rey didn't already have inside her.

Wrong. Play, the bloody video. He says "that library contains nothing that the girl Rey does not already posess" Becuase the books aren't in the library anymore, she posesses them.

That doesn't work if all he meant was that she had the books with her

Which is probaly why that's not what he said.

but the voiceover here implies that the teachings WERE important.

The voiceover doesn't mention the books once. Luke says they've passed on all they know, and Yoda did tell him to pass on "all he knows" : strength, weakness, mastery, folly and failuer and he did. Just like Yoda and Obi-Wan passed on that to him.

YES, they can explain that with Luke giving training as a Force Ghost, but again all that will do is remind us that that's what he was supposed to be doing in TLJ and refused to do.

Which is it? Is it bad to "retcon" TLJ or is it bad to acknowledge what did and did not happen in it?

As I said, that would be an internal power struggle, not a Resistance-friendly coup. In those situations, the Resistance would be taking advantage of that to put pressure on the one who is in charge -- Ren, I suppose? -- but not only will neither of them join with the Resistance the Resistance won't have them. Using Ren's betrayal and Luke's example as a push for someone to rebel in a way that aligns with the Resistance would work better if you need to do it in a hurry, but there is no character who can do that in the FO or that we even think could rally FO-loyal forces against them. So, as I stated, that sort of move won't help here.

So what? You were saying that the FO was too strong to be beaten, and you dismiss internal struggles because the bad guys wouldn't join the good guys? What are you trying to say here? Nobody has suggested that the Resistance would try to recruit Hux, or some such.

As I already noted, before Rogue One the impression was that they HAD a fleet after ANH: the ones that won that first battle.

What first battle? ANH makes no mention of a battle being won. The Tantive IV intercepted a transmission and was fleeing the Devastator.

So no one was puzzled with its appearance in TESB, and given the crawl of TESB there was even an impression that it had shrunk instead of grown in the interim (that's why it fled outside the galaxy, after all).

No it doesn't, all it says is that the Empire is trying to find their secret base.

Here, we know they don't have one. Destroying the world killing device would garner support, but having the rest of their military wiped out would cost them support and a leadership position. So there's a lot to explain given where TLJ ended.

Why? They've managed to destroy Starkiller and escape the fleet after them, they did loose their fleet but they took out the Supremacy and the entire (much larger than theirs) fleet that accompanied it. They have Leai Organa, Chewbacca and Nien Nubbs, famous heroes of the First Galactic Civil War, they have Poe Dameron, ace pilot, Finn the stormtrooper that escaped his conditionning and infitrated Starkiller base and Rey who is a Jedi Knight. Why would they not have supoort or a leadership position? Hell, them not having a fleet guarantees neutrality vis-à-vis the different factions they'd gather.

And, again, that's my main point: trying to finish the trilogy a la RotJ forces a shift where you'll be able to hear the gears grind moving from TLJ to this one. My argument is that it would have been better to convert this movie into a RotS or pre-ANH type movie and build another trilogy to end with their RotJ moment.

Again, going from dark but hopeful for the future to winning the future isn't a gear-shift. Also they are laready planning another trilogy, you know? It's supposed to be inna completely different time and without Skywalkers though.

It's there to generate excitement for the movie, and those who aren't big Rey fans will find very little in this teaser to excite them because of the focus it puts on Rey, and not even on Rey as a character but Rey as someone who does cool Jedi things.

There's Lando, Kylo Ren reforging his helmet, the wreckage of the Death Star, Ghost Luke, Carrie bloody Fisher and Sidious. Again, it seems like you would have wished for this tesaer to be only flashes which is just weird.

Poe being backgrounded is just another example of how this movie seems to be returning to the TFA model and moving away from the TLJ model. He was Wedge in TFA but in TLJ was someone much more important.

And now you are back to seemingly thinking prominence in the teaser directly translates to prominence in the movie. Rey was barely in the teasers for TFA, remember?

2) We can ask what is interesting about her character. The big mystery from TFA was seemingly resolved in the most uninteresting way possible in TLJ, as her parents are irrelevant and simply abandoned her for no plot or character related reason.

I'm still amazed that people thought she would be related to the main characters in any way. none of those theories made sense (I mean a Kenob would have been weird and unnecessary, a Palapatine would have just been stuoid, and A Skywalker or a Solo, that would have been some character assassination). And people complained that TLJ saying Star Wars wasn't about lines (like in the line of my fathers, is that the right word?) of people was unnecessary. Especially weird was that TFA had already bluntly said her parents weren't coming back and she had to move on from that.

TLJ and the teaser implies that Rey is trained enough to be a Jedi. Rey has already faced and rejected joining Kylo Ren. There are not real romantic interests to speak off. The only thing that might draw some interest is her propensity for the Dark Side but the movies have been playing that as being normal and proper even from TFA. What is there about her character that can draw interest? For Luke, we had the relationship with Vader as his father, and that STILL wasn't the entire focus of RotJ and his character wasn't the sole focus of the movie. This teaser implies otherwise with nothing to work with.

The relationship with Ren, for example. And also having the mission of rebuilding the Order. Again. Seeing her transition from refusing to accept her parents aren't coming back to Jedi and and struggling with the Dark Side was plenty interesting.

-Kylo practicing kintsugi on his worldview

I learned a word today.

[Blackhawk748]

Given how TLJ was going, it wouldn't surprise me if this one results in

Spoiler

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Rey and Ben Solo/Kylo Ren manipulating both sides of the conflict into some sort of stability where it's effectively a peaceful republic where everyone works together but the empire-rattlers are kept sated somehow

But that'd be a bit... weird, to think 2 people could hoodwink a whole galaxy.

He's not that smart.

Expand that the the Senate and that's basically the plot of Bloodlines.

Which, despite being in one of the worse Star Wars Old EU series, has a much better villain. Yes, Darth Caedus is a much better villain than Kylo Ren.

Indeed, assuming that the big capital ships we see in TLJ are the majority of their standing forces, its all but impossible for them to actually govern terribly many planets at once. They simply wouldn't have the ability to be everywhere to enforce their will.

It's not. It was 30 Resurgent Class Star Destroyers while their navy consists of "hundreds". The info is annoyingly vague on actual numbers for them but by the way its phrased they would probably have over 300 ships. Atfter the chase 20 where destroyed/crippled, so its not unreasonable to assume that half of that is salvagable, leaving them with true losses of 10, or about 3% ish of their total forces. Not a good day, but no where near crippling.

On top of this, as I've pointed out already, the Resurgent is so ludricously overgunned and built that there isn't a ship in the entire Sequel Era that can take one on head on, the things don't even suffer from Trench Run Syndrome like their Imperial Counterparts, so you can't even take them out via mass snubfighters. Those ships are insane.

The New Republic disarme because it didn't consider the FO would attack. Individual systems have their own fleet. Sure none of them have the oomph to take on the FO alone, but all together banding behind the New Republic? It doen't matter if your ships have twelve times more firepower than the best ships on the other side if they have a hundred times more ship than you do. Seriously, the FO ambitions to do what nobody has done in the history of the Far Far away Galaxy: conquering it. simply having the biggest ships around isn't enough for that.

Yes, worlds may have their own defensive fleets, composed of corvettes and snubfighters. Because all they deal with are pirates on the day to day. Maybe they have a destroyer class ship, possibly, but I doubt it, those things aren't cheap to build and maintain. So the fleet will probably be made up of a large quantity of gunboats, snubfighters and anti-piracy corvettes. They'll get slaughtered.

Mix this with the fact that none of them really have a reason to back the New Republic (which it's entire governing structure has been completely destroyed and was apparently heavily subverted by the FO before its destruction, yes thats a thing) or the Resistance (which has been nearly annhiliated as the only memeber of the Command Staff alive is General Organa, Poe is just a Wing Commander and Rey and Fin aren't terribly important to anyone outside the Resistance. Yes, Jedi aren't super important, remeber, its been like, 50 years since the Order was a thing. noon has a reason to care) and you start to realize that you aren't going to get a very large fleet. Combine that with the horrendous casualties you'll take from trying to fight a FO Battlefleet without capital ships and even less people will show up.

At best? You get a Phyrric victory. More realistically the Resurgents show up with their hull composed entirely out of guns (seriously, how the hell do they have that many guns on that ship?) and blast the fleet made up of small ships into oblivion before the Resistance can even get into range. They need Capital Ships relatively on par with the FO to take them on.

[HMS Invincible]

Are people just making up lore, or are there books and stuff? I remembered that nuked a lot of the EU, so everything feels disjointed.

[hamishspence]

More realistically the Resurgents show up with their hull composed entirely out of guns (seriously, how the hell do they have that many guns on that ship?) and blast the fleet made up of small ships into oblivion before the Resistance can even get into range.

I lean to the view that the official number of guns for the Resurgent, includes many tiny point defense turbolasers. Wookieepedia does appear to include point defence lasers in its count of "1500 turbolasers, ion cannons, point defence lasers"

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Res...Star_Destroyer

A better gauge of its capabilities might be to look at the number of big gun turrets on the ship - and compare to the ISD's.

[druid91]

Oh goody. Can't wait to see how they ruin Lando like all the rest of the characters. Part of me was really, really hoping we wouldn't see his return. And I swear, if they actually bring Palpatine back in any fashion beyond a flashback I will riot. Let the OT cast have at least one victory that isn't completely overturned by the new movies. They already failed at any kind of healing from the Empire. They already lost the next generation. They already turned into shells of their former selves. Can the damn emperor at least remain actually dead? Please?

Fun fact. In New Canon they didn't even fully overthrow the empire. The New Republic is limited to the outer rim.

[hamishspence]

Fun fact. In New Canon they didn't even fully overthrow the empire. The New Republic is limited to the outer rim.

It's a bit bigger than that. Hosnian Prime, capital of the New Republic, is in the Core. And during the Aftermath trilogy, we see the Empire's surrender - Mas Amedda hands over Coruscant to the New Republic, and is permitted to remain in charge of Coruscant - albeit with New Republic minders to keep him in line.

In the Bloodline novel (not to be confused with Bloodlines, which was Legends) the Coruscant Senator is part of the New Republic Senate - so it's clear that it's fully New Republic.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's a bit bigger than that. Hosnian Prime, capital of the New Republic, is in the Core. And during the Aftermath trilogy, we see the Empire's surrender - Mas Amedda hands over Coruscant to the New Republic, and is permitted to remain in charge of Coruscant - albeit with New Republic minders to keep him in line.

In the Bloodline novel (not to be confused with Bloodlines, which was Legends) the Coruscant Senator is part of the New Republic Senate - so it's clear that it's fully New Republic.

Does it matter? Couruscant is a pain to keep fed and seems to produce nothing but pomposity and prestige.

[hamishspence]

The point being that the Core is the part of the galaxy with most of the the industrial resources, technology, and money - and that the New Republic in the newcanon includes the Core - it isn't confined to the Outer Rim.

[druid91]

The point being that the Core is the part of the galaxy with most of the the industrial resources, technology, and money - and that the New Republic in the newcanon includes the Core - it isn't confined to the Outer Rim.

Includes part of the core. The point remains that New Canon is basically 'The old heroes are miserable failures who did nothing of lasting consequence.'

[hamishspence]

The New Republic (and peace with what was left of the Empire) was established faster in newcanon than in Legends, at least. And 20-odd years of peace before the First Order revealed itself is nothing to sniff at.

[zimmerwald1915]

Includes part of the core. The point remains that New Canon is basically 'The old heroes are miserable failures who did nothing of lasting consequence.'

"Only a small part is played in great deeds by any hero."

It was a mistake to imagine a total restoration of the Republic in the first place.

[Peelee]

Does it matter? Couruscant is a pain to keep fed and seems to produce nothing but pomposity and prestige.

It's where they shove all the space lawyers.

[Malifice]

It's where they shove all the space lawyers.

Hey! I resemble that comment!

[Beer Baron]

My money is on it being a big hot mess just like the last one.

[zimmerwald1915]

Hey! I resemble that comment!

What does a space lawyer do in her practice?

[Fyraltari]

They present cases at the space bar, what else?

[Peelee]

What does a space lawyer do in her practice?

That's a question that Ol' Miss can help with.

[HMS Invincible]

This is a single movie right? No 2 part milking it?

[Peelee]

This is a single movie right? No 2 part milking it?

I generally dislike hyperbole on how Disney is handling the new trilogy and audience reaction, but that would be the best way to piss off just everybody.