Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

[Squire Doodad]

The non-evocation one is fairly variable, but evocation has fewer choices. Basically I hope that we get one of the non-core options instead of just plain ol' Crushing Hand.



Well, it wouldn't be satisfying if it actually solved everything, but it would be a great end to V's arc and would certainly spice things up near the end.

I mean, it makes sense that V's price for ultimate arcane power is to ultimately lose arcane power. On the other hand, given that Belkar has been designated for a climatic death at the end of Book 7 by the Oracle, it would be a bit much to have two members of the Order forced to make the ultimate sacrifice, even if they are two very different kinds.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, when V had access to a crap ton of spells, what lvl 9 spells did he use?

Time Stop came first...

And then... Bigsby's Crushing Hand.

And that was all.

I'll clarify in that I only looked at the fight with Xykon. I might have missed a spell or misidentified one. Good points about the spells cast during the rest of the time V had the splices.

[Kornaki]

Actually, I find that what V had before the Soul Splice to be far more enticing of an option.
I'm talking about what V offered Z to get in exchange for the Fly spell.
This suggests that V has in his possession Meteor Swarm, Time Stop and Wish.

Sorry, V doesn't actually have any of the ninth level spells listed there (at least not at the time of the comic). They were just pointing out that Z was being obnoxious in their refusal to trade the fly spell. It would be like if you were negotiating to buy a used car and all your offers were rejected with no counteroffer, you might say "what do you want, a million bucks?" With no intention of paying that or even claiming you actually possess that much money

[ijuinkun]

Is it not possible that V had the spells (in the sense of having them in a spellbook from which Z could hypothetically copy them) while not yet being able to cast them due to level restrictions? IIRC, V had only just gained access to 7th level spells as of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html.

[MultitudeMan]

Is it not possible that V had the spells (in the sense of having them in a spellbook from which Z could hypothetically copy them) while not yet being able to cast them due to level restrictions? IIRC, V had only just gained access to 7th level spells as of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html.

The Class and Level Geekery thread is pretty convinced that the Order all hit level 9 in that strip, so V gained 5th level spells then, not 7th.

[Goblin_Priest]

Is it not possible that V had the spells (in the sense of having them in a spellbook from which Z could hypothetically copy them) while not yet being able to cast them due to level restrictions? IIRC, V had only just gained access to 7th level spells as of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html.

Ugh, sure, maybe V bought some of those randomized spell packs joked about, and in there was a bunch of level 9 spells. But as the other guy said, I seriously doubt V had those spells, it was just to point out that Z wouldn't trade anything for it.

[Psyren]

Definitely Crushing Hand for his specialist slot if we're sticking to core.

The others will either be Disjunction (for the narratively satisfying reasons already stated) or Time Stop (he has firsthand experience with how useful it is.)

Wish and Shapechange are probably out.

[hamishspence]

Shapechange is definitely out - it's Transmutation, and V barred Transmutation and Necromancy.

[zimmerwald1915]

Shapechange is definitely out - it's Transmutation, and V barred Transmutation and Necromancy.

Oh you. oh you.

[SlashDash]

I have a hunch V would avoid the spells used during the Soul Splice - specifically the Shapechange it used to kill the Dragon.

Let's face it, that isn't exactly a happy memory for him\her.

I also don't think that Meteor Swarm is likely.
Only Xykon cast it, right?
It's kind of his signature spell.

I would guess Crushing Hand and either Prismatic Sphere or Dominate Monster.

Both being upgraded versions of spells they cast already.

[Doug Lampert]

Shapechange is definitely out - it's Transmutation, and V barred Transmutation and Necromancy.

V banned conjuration and necromancy. Conjuration is where Teleport lives in 3.5, and we know he can't cast the spell because it's on his banned list. Shapechange is fine.

[Reboot]

Sorry, V doesn't actually have any of the ninth level spells listed there (at least not at the time of the comic). They were just pointing out that Z was being obnoxious in their refusal to trade the fly spell. It would be like if you were negotiating to buy a used car and all your offers were rejected with no counteroffer, you might say "what do you want, a million bucks?" With no intention of paying that or even claiming you actually possess that much money

Well, true and false - V probably didn't have them for real, no, but a spell Zed couldn't cast for ages yet wouldn't be that tempting even as a genuine offer, especially with the costs of notating a 9th level spell in one's spellbook.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, true and false - V probably didn't have them for real, no, but a spell Zed couldn't cast for ages yet wouldn't be that tempting even as a genuine offer, especially with the costs of notating a 9th level spell in one's spellbook.

That's a good point. It'd be like offering a $1 million yatch in exchange for a $20k car - great trade, until you realise you can't afford the mooring fees and you have no idea of how to use a yatch in the first place.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Well, true and false - V probably didn't have them for real, no, but a spell Zed couldn't cast for ages yet wouldn't be that tempting even as a genuine offer, especially with the costs of notating a 9th level spell in one's spellbook.

So even the flip side works as a point against V having it. This amuses me.

[Fish]

It’ll be a Bugsby spell of unlikely function which he has acquired and prepared with uncanny, Batman-like foresight; eg, Bugsy’s Goblin-Cleric-Punching Fist.

[Ghosty]

...Gamebreaker, maybe. But it would certainly break the narrative with the several possibilities that the spell contains. I'm almost sure that Burlew won't allow his characters (especially the PCs) to use that kind of spell.

We should know relatively quickly, when the narrative returns to Team Evil: if RedCloak can cast Implosion, he should be able to cast Miracle.

EDIT: I like Disjunction too, for the reasons Zim stated. What's V barred from again? Conjuration and Necromancy, right? (I didn't see that Doug answered this already, above) I like Time Stop, but I think a Bugsby's Hand spell better fits what we've seen from hir. I see that Imprisonment allows a Will save.

[Goblin_Priest]

I have a hunch V would avoid the spells used during the Soul Splice - specifically the Shapechange it used to kill the Dragon.

Let's face it, that isn't exactly a happy memory for him\her.

I also don't think that Meteor Swarm is likely.
Only Xykon cast it, right?
It's kind of his signature spell.

I would guess Crushing Hand and either Prismatic Sphere or Dominate Monster.

Both being upgraded versions of spells they cast already.

Meteor Swarm would be a bad call, given how Xykon gloats about his protections from fire and his willingness to shoot himself with meteor swarms regularly.

Time Stop is just such an awesome spell, though yea might be gimmicky to see V use it repeatedly. Crushing hand is a solid choice that fits with V's love for Hand spells, and the fact he used it before, without being too gimmicky. Mass Hold Monster is solid too. Freedom, Mage's Disjunction, and Prismatic Sphere too.

[Ghosty]

Piling onto Zim's repeated theory about Disjunction, it would be a way to force The Dark One to come down in person if RedCloak was wonky about playing ball with Thor, et al's plan involving the purple quiddity. Disjoin the Crimson Mantle, it gets destroyed, then the Dark One has a near certain chance of showing up to deal with whoever destroyed it.

Of course, the Dark One would probably kill everything first, then ask questions, but it's a start.

[CriticalFailure]

In terms of smiting, what flavor stuff on top of preventing V from casting might the Dark One do? Turn V purple?

[Goblin_Priest]

Yea Mage's Disjunction has lots of narrative potential.

[zimmerwald1915]

yatch

*Shudder*

And now for something completely different: what is a boat? A hole in the water into which you pour money.

[Peelee]

*Shudder*

And now for something completely different: what is a boat? A hole in the water into which you pour money.

That's why you get a ship instead, those tend to make you money.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Shipping!? I don't want to write fanfiction!

[understatement]

If it's not Bugsby's lich-swatting hand, then riot!!!!!!!

Honestly? I don't think he's zhe's reaching ninths. The villains are supposed to have a large enough edge on the heroes so that ideally, we wouldn't know what way the battle would swing.

In other words, it lowers the stakes by too much of a significant amount.

feel free to laugh after V pulls out a 9th

[InvisibleBison]

Disjoin the Crimson Mantle, it gets destroyed, then the Dark One has a near certain chance of showing up to deal with whoever destroyed it.

This doesn't seem likely to me. I don't see why having an artifact he made be disjoined would grant the Dark One an exception to the rules prohibiting gods from acting directly on the Material Plane.

[Reboot]

This doesn't seem likely to me. I don't see why having an artifact he made be disjoined would grant the Dark One an exception to the rules prohibiting gods from acting directly on the Material Plane.

Well, for one thing, the Dark One isn't party to those rules. They're a set of treaties between the pantheons, not a literal barrier - and just as there are no formal lines of communication (as Thor lamented to Durkon), he's not signed up to any of them. [cf Hel trying to weasel around them]

[CriticalFailure]

This doesn't seem likely to me. I don't see why having an artifact he made be disjoined would grant the Dark One an exception to the rules prohibiting gods from acting directly on the Material Plane.

It's standard in D&D and Pathfinder that successfully disjoining an artifact is very difficult, and if it works the caster must make a will save or loose all casting ability and is very very likely to draw the ire of powerful beings associated with the artifact. Based on the universe running on 3.5e rules I assume the gods have some sort of artifact related agreement that fulfills these criteria, and that those who succeed in disjoining artifacts can expect to get smote.

[InvisibleBison]

Well, for one thing, the Dark One isn't party to those rules. They're a set of treaties between the pantheons, not a literal barrier - and just as there are no formal lines of communication (as Thor lamented to Durkon), he's not signed up to any of them. [cf Hel trying to weasel around them]

If the Dark One isn't subject to the rules, he also isn't protected by them. Showing up on the Material Plane and attacking a high level cleric of Thor seems like a good way to get Thor to attack you, and while we know that Thor isn't likely to do that, there's no reason to think the Dark One does.

It's standard in D&D and Pathfinder that successfully disjoining an artifact is very difficult, and if it works the caster must make a will save or loose all casting ability and is very very likely to draw the ire of powerful beings associated with the artifact.

In 3.5, disjoining an artifact merely "attract[s] the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device". There's no reason to think that would necessarily be the Dark One. Of course, even if the spell didn't alert him directly the Dark One would almost certainly notice the Crimson Mantle being disjoined through some other method (probably portfolio sense).

Based on the universe running on 3.5e rules I assume the gods have some sort of artifact related agreement that fulfills these criteria, and that those who succeed in disjoining artifacts can expect to get smote.

This, I highly doubt. Anyone capable of casting disjunction is either a high-level cleric or likely adventuring in the company of a high-level cleric. It seems quite unlikely that the gods would allow one another to go smiting their most powerful servants under any circumstances.

[CriticalFailure]

If the Dark One isn't subject to the rules, he also isn't protected by them. Showing up on the Material Plane and attacking a high level cleric of Thor seems like a good way to get Thor to attack you, and while we know that Thor isn't likely to do that, there's no reason to think the Dark One does.

In 3.5, disjoining an artifact merely "attract[s] the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device". There's no reason to think that would necessarily be the Dark One. Of course, even if the spell didn't alert him directly the Dark One would almost certainly notice the Crimson Mantle being disjoined through some other method (probably portfolio sense).

This, I highly doubt. Anyone capable of casting disjunction is either a high-level cleric or likely adventuring in the company of a high-level cleric. It seems quite unlikely that the gods would allow one another to go smiting their most powerful servants under any circumstances.

"Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.) Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device."

This is the same as in PF, and it's not an unreasonable jump to say that the powerful being with an interest or connection to the Crimson Mantle is The Dark One. And it would make sense that the gods wouldn't want each other messing with their cool sparkly artifacts - so they have an agreement that to deter powerful mortals from messing with their cool toys, limited smiting is game if someone destroys their artifact. Even if this isn't the case, it is likely that a deity whose artifact has been destroyed willl be using any loophole they can find to mess with them back.

[Jannoire]

My vote is on Disjunction... But not for the crimson mantle...
My guess involves Xykon's soul-hidey-place...