OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

But in England the word for that rank is Earl, not count. You wouldn't be calling Louis "Basileus Louis", would you?

Of course not, because "Basileus" is a silly word for "king" and I thought you French were better than that. You're a romantic language, for pete's sake! The Romans had a great root word for you to use!

[Fyraltari]

Of course not, because "Basileus" is a silly word for "king" and I thought you French were better than that. You're a romantic language, for pete's sake! The Romans had a great root word for you to use!

We use it: ‘‘roi’’. ‘‘Basileus’’ is Greek, that was my point: using neither your own word nor the one from the individual’s native culture is kinda weird.

[Peelee]

We use it: ‘‘roi’’. ‘‘Basileus’’ is Greek, that was my point: using neither your own word nor the one from the individual’s native culture is kinda weird.

I can always revert back to "English is weird." Those clever Brits, giving me a nice escape route like that.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Stuff to say before I forget:

- I when my eyes first hit panel 9, I was convinced that Haley was going to shoot Roy in the nuts again
- Rich is very good at drawing hands
- The period at the end of the WUMF is hilarious

[Fyraltari]

- Rich is very good at drawing hands

Nonsense. Not only does he draw them with two digits too many, he also adds a completely unnecessary lump of flesh between the arm proper and the fingers. And this despite the fact that his characters have perfectly normal hands he could copy!

[Aedilred]

But in England the word for that rank is Earl, not count. You wouldn't be calling Louis "Basileus Louis", would you?

A few things that are probably worth noting.

Firstly, although "Count" was never an English title, there were Counts in England, because from 1066 onwards the English nobility overlapped significantly with the French nobility, with many lords holding a title in each kingdom, usually including the king. It was therefore a word in sufficiently common use as to be adopted into English in its own right even though it was never the name for an English title.

Secondly, although Earls and Counts are of the same noble rank, after about 1066 Earldoms didn't necessarily correspond to a territory in fact. You might be Earl of Gloucester but that didn't mean you ruled Gloucestershire: it was just a title, of varying levels of prestige. Counts, by contrast, were de jure rulers of the county to which the title corresponded. This is a simplification but not too much of one. There is therefore a distinction between the two titles, and may be part of the reason why the titles remained differentiated in English, with Earls being the title used for British title-holders, and Counts for European title-holders.

(Pre-1066, Earldoms were associated directly with territory, but at that point the territories were much bigger and Earls were more akin to contintental Dukes.)

Thirdly, "Count" is probably the wrong title for Vlad Dracula anyway. As a Voivode, Vlad was more akin to a French Duke, or a sovereign Prince. English has always had problems when it comes to translating Eastern European titles and this is no exception.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's also the issue that because of the spread of the French language as the preferred tongue of the elites*, many local terms were displaced by Francophone ones (see also Russian literature like Tolstoi). So there's a certain level of cultural contamination at work.

*hence the phrase lingua franca

[hroþila]

But in England the word for that rank is Earl, not count. You wouldn't be calling Louis "Basileus Louis", would you?

I think the mistake here is that you're defining earl as "noble of count rank" instead of as "English noble of count rank." Because of that qualifier, it would be absolutely unsuitable for Dracula, while count fits (although, as noted, duke would have been a better word, not only because of its implied rank but because of the etymological parallels between voivode and duke*). This is not altogether unusual. For example, the Finnish parliament is called eduskunta, a native formation, but all other parliaments are called parlamentti, a loan.

It is possible that the alliteration of Duke Dracula would have made him sound too much like some sort of mascot, though.

*Even better would have been to not let Old English heretoga** die off (cf. German Herzog), but alas and wailawai.
**Let's make hartow a thing.

[Goblin_Priest]

Yea, it probably just sounded better for the intended audience. Continental, aristocratic.

[Resileaf]

"Duke Dracula" just doesn't have that ominous edge.