Game-Warper's Optimization #5: E8 Madness!

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Last day to get your judgments done!

[The Kool]

Well, a little overdue actually, but I'm still waiting for one more I think and I have a lot on my plate so you've got a bit longer before I call it and drop the late one.

[daremetoidareyo]

Hey guys. Sorry about the sudden dissapearance. Health issues popped up for my wife, and we have a 3 year old boy that we need not mess up by being on screens near him, so I haven't really had real free time to live up to my responsibilities. Im proud of your mutiny.

[The Kool]

Hey guys. Sorry about the sudden dissapearance. Health issues popped up for my wife, and we have a 3 year old boy that we need not mess up by being on screens near him, so I haven't really had real free time to live up to my responsibilities. Im proud of your mutiny.

Hey, life takes priority. Glad to see you back. If you want to take the reigns back, I'm happy to return them, or I can keep it going for a bit if you need the time.

[daremetoidareyo]

Hey, life takes priority. Glad to see you back. If you want to take the reigns back, I'm happy to return them, or I can keep it going for a bit if you need the time.

Keep the reigns for a bit more, we aren't out of the weeds, not by a long shot.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hey welcome back!

[The Kool]

Keep the reigns for a bit more, we aren't out of the weeds, not by a long shot.

Got it. I'm slowly developing a theme for the next round, I think we'll be back onto a 20-level progression for that one if everyone's cool with that?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Works for me.

[jdizzlean]

Im proud of your mutiny.

both of those are good things to hear :)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

When are we going to reveal the scores? Or are we still waiting on the third entrant?

[The Kool]

I will give our third entrant until later this week. Sorry for the delays, life and holidays and all that.

[jdizzlean]

i think we've been more then lenient. will you post the reveal please?

[The Kool]

I had a nagging feeling some responsibility was eluding me. I have a nasty habit of posting "I'll get back to it" then only being reactive to other posts and not having a to-do list...

Sadly, our third competitor did not have time to judge, and thus by the rules stated they don't receive a ranking. Below I have shared the thoughts of the two of you who did judge, and both of you can congratulate each other on a shared win.

The Siege Tower: PoeticallyPsycho
Longtusk Two-Moos: jdizzlean
Warped One: Falontani (disqualified, did not judge)

Spoiler

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First, a note about myself. I’m actually very new at this. Though I started reading 3.5 books as a kid, I didn’t actually play (not with traditional rules, at least) until relatively recently; I’m still on my first real 3.5 campaign (though I have played some 4th edition and 5th edition), and we’re only to level 5. This is the 3rd or 4th optimization challenge I’ve ever entered, depending on how you divide the dates, and I’ve only judged one more (two if you count Gamewarpers, where the entrants judge). This is most likely to make itself apparent in the Originality section; unless you use something from one of my relatively few spheres of knowledge, almost everything mechanical is equally new to me, so I’ll probably weight fluff and overall character concept much more heavily than a typical judge.



The Warped One:

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, this entry really illustrates the importance of fluff and generally describing your character. I had to infer from the tactics section that TWO is a guardian for the group of illithids that transformed him or her, and look up almost all of the feats/psionic powers to figure out what they did and how they played into that greater purpose. Without a flavorful description or even an in-depth description of the build/tactics, it can’t help but feel bland, no matter how much creativity went into it.

That opening paragraph pretty much sums it up as far as Originality. Even after going through all the feats, powers, and abilities, it doesn’t seem like you’re doing anything interesting mechanically beyond Voidmind and having several natural weapons.

Power is likewise made hard to figure out without an explanation of how it all works together. You do have an impressive reach, and several natural weapons (my count reaches 6 even with the unarmed strike and bite of the wolf; I don’t know where the 7th is coming from). You take Symbiont Mastery and then never mention symbionts again? I think Thrall Bred is more trouble than it’s worth, but it is very thematic. You have 3 illithids who can control you at any time, but are also invested in keeping you alive and can channel powers through you to that effect. And the ability to grapple a foe while still taking a full turn up to 20ft away is going to be useful in almost every encounter.

On to Elegance. I don’t have Complete Psionic, but D&D Tools assures me that neither Illithid Heritage nor Illithid Skin are psionic or fighter feats, and thus both are ineligible for being taken as Psychic Warrior bonus feats. You’ve got an extra skill point at 1st level, but I’m prepared to chock that up to Voidmind having supposed to be acquired (boosting your Int) before that first level of fighter. Psicraft still isn’t a class skill for you, so you’ve exceeded the maximum ranks every level but the first. And you take a flaw. But the last penalty is the most damning. Voidmind Creature is a template with LA that does not change your type to aberration and isn’t from Lords of Madness, making this build illegal for this contest.

Theme. Much as I wish there was some flavor text, some indication of personality, of, you know, character to this character, there is no denying that all the mechanical choices are pretty well on theme. A personal guard for an illithid is hardly unique to Lords of Madness, but it would be churlish indeed for me to criticize someone else for sticking to the looser theme of aberrations. Obviously you’re taking advantage of the ability to use LA for the build, but you’re not really doing anything with the extra two levels besides increasing your numbers and picking up a healing ability that will consume most of your PP.



Longtusk Two-Moos:

Applying the half-illithid template to a Krynn minotaur is definitely an interesting decision, as the latter are primarily sailors and pirates – hang on, this is just Davy Jones, ain’t it. 😉

Originality: a minotaur Davy Jones who flies at his opponents, grapples up to 8 of them, and commences eating their brains is an original character concept as far as I’m concerned. Lion Totem Barbarian is hardly original, but I think the rest more than makes up for it. Not really much more to say here.

Now for Power. You’ve got a more than respectable bonus to grappling, and having all 4 Illithid Grapple actually lets you grapple multiple opponents at once (albeit as a full-round action, so not after a charge, when it would be most useful), though you’ll want to get at least 4 tentacles per opponent when possible, naturally. Still, that’s two people, both in danger of being Extracted. You don’t need to care about the damage most of the time, so you can just target their touch AC. Your Achilles’ Heel is that you’re pretty squishy for a melee character, with only 3 HD.

Elegance. Half-Illithid means you don’t need to spend a feat on Illithid Extraction; clever. However, Aberration Blood requires you to be humanoid, and your type is aberration. That means you’re losing the benefits of a lot of your feats. To qualify again, the only thing I know of is Human Heritage, but that requires a much larger change to your backstory and build than I’m willing to just handwave in exchange for an Elegance penalty.

Last but not least, Theme. You’re making the best use of your aberrant feats out of the three of us… but as I just covered, you don’t actually qualify for them. A half-mindflayer is pretty on theme. You’re making good use of LA, obviously, and the extra two levels are necessary to make your character at all viable as a melee combatant/manifester.



I find myself conflicted. Both of my competitors screwed up pretty royally as far as Elegance, both with far-reaching repercussions. I’m more than half-tempted to call Voidmind Creature on theme [I]enough[/] to be legitimate, though that’s partially because before I realized Longtusk didn’t qualify for all those aberrant feats Longtusk would still have been the winner. If we don’t pardon The Warped One, Longtusk is the clear winner, but if we do Longtusk still has actual character, more interesting mechanics, more power (but only if you disregard the mindflayers that can channel their powers through TWO), and a better (attempted) use of Lords of Madness material. So let’s look at this two ways. If we treat LTM’s feats as actually illegal, he loses all points in Elegance but they count as legal for the rest of the categories, which means he then wins handily in Originality, at least ties in Power, and wins in Theme, which I think is enough to give him the win total. OTOH, if we treat the build as legal for Elegance (the feats are a penalty), he still wins handily in Originality, loses in Power, wins handily in Elegance, and barely loses in Theme; I think that’s still enough to call Longtusk the winner.

+4 for Longtusk Two-Moos, +2 for The Warped One.

Spoiler

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Spoiler: Warped One 1st place, 4 points

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Originality:
Voidmind is daring considering the consequences, the rest is pretty vanilla.
Power:
Thrall bred is a double edged sword, a minor bonus to attack as long as you stay close to your charge, but twice the penalty if 30ft or more away for any reason, or your charge dies. And if you designate one the first week of a month, and it dies, now you have 3 weeks left in the month where you get stuck with that penalty…

Symbiot Mastery does nothing for you, you don’t have a symbiote… (your attached tentacle isn’t a symbiot)

Considering that Voidmind gives you DR 5/magic, it seems a waste to take Mark of Xoriat at Epic 7 for DR 5/random letters

You spend skill points because you have to, but what exactly are you using intimidate and psicraft for in this build?

No Save Dominance from your masters isn’t a good thing. It’s a big weakness. If you get dominated, it’s not likely that you’re going to survive the encounter…

You list a claw attack, but where’s that coming from?
Elegance:
You take a flaw/bonus feat through what I’d consider a dubious means. Especially since you provide no justification or clarification for doing so other than taking it.

Listing which source each feat came from would’ve been a lot easier than “I used these books”

You don’t list which SLA you’re getting from Aberrant Dragonmark.

Please denote cross class skills somehow on your next build..

You take Illithid Heritage as your bonus feat at Psy War 1, but because you tanked your WIS score, you have no power point reserve, and therefore don’t qualify to take it. This snowballs down your build.

UoSI:
Clearly you’re an aberration, and Durable Form really stacks on extra HP to make up for the loss of HD. However you don’t have any one clear role despite grapple things. You have no flight or other movement ability, so can be shut down in a myriad of ways. You have no ranged combat ability beyond a few

Spoiler: Siege Tower 2nd Place, 2 Points

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Originality:
I mean, wow.
Power:
Assuming all this worked, I mean, WOW.

You may be able to make multiple NATURAL attacks, but you can’t make but 2 weapon attacks from your BAB, so you can only throw 4 daggers in a round, not 24. Rapid shot would let you do 6 (if you can convince someone that a dagger is a ranged weapon. Being used in a ranged attack *thrown* doesn’t make it a ranged weapon). TWF likewise would give you maybe 2 more attacks, so now you can be at 8. Then it gets even greyer w/ prehensile tail.
Elegance:
Symbiotic Creature can only be applied to 2 creatures, not 3. Further, if your intention was to have 1 of the 3 be part of a symbiotic template twice, it can’t because it’s now an aberration and not an animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin as required.

Further, this is even worse than attempting 2 different were’s w/ dvati as you’re trying to say that having all three aspects of dragonborn is a thing, especially since you say all 3 creatures somehow come out of one egg from the rite of rebirth, which also isn’t a thing.

Symbiotic is also vastly under LA’d for the simple reason of minmaxing ability scores, so here’s some cheese penalty.

Graft Flesh requires you to have 10 ranks in Heal, which you don’t.

Master Thrower requires 4 ranks in Sleight of Hand, which you don’t have.
UoSI:
This build does however shine a big old beacon fire on the ludicrousness of the symbiotic creature template. However, using Human heritage as the lynchpin of your build and not something aberration based goes against the SI being the chief ingredient.

Frankly, I have issues with both builds, and it’s more of a choice of a lesser of two evils for ranking. In this case, I’m actually saddened by not having disputes because I think there is a LOT of clearing up that needs to be done, but sadly this format doesn’t support that until afterwards..

I'll post the next round shortly. Stay tuned!

[Falontani]

I am so sorry I couldn't get to judging! You guys both did awesome. I was trying to do a full judging like I'd do in another competition. Then when I realized I didn't need to do that I had completely run out of time. Finished a long running campaign this past week, holiday weekend, and spouse's birthday, along with family issues all while working more hours than usual.

Complete Psionic does list illithid heritage feats as psionic.
I took psymbiont mastery because I was originally going to use a daelkyr half blood, but since it was an aberration I couldn't apply the voidmind template. But I liked the idea of it.
I messed up on my skills admittedly.
I listed which sla was chosen in the statblock.
Dr 5/byeshk+magic > dr 5/magic. Nothing's natural weapons count as byeshk.
His claw attack is a crawling gauntlet. In Eberron illithids are servants/creations of the Daelkyr, as are symbionts. I felt that with the feat and theme it made sense for that to be Warped One's primary weapon before tentacle madness could truly begin.


Warped One was bred in the illithid thrall pits much like one may breed a powerful Bull. He was bred for strength, for his Dragonmark, for his position. There were probably dozens or more casually tossed aside babies. When he was selected it was because he was the best of the offered stock. "Genetically superior." Then he was trained. Once trained up appropriately they made him into a voidmind. His purpose was to defend, to guard the three illithid masters. And just like a rancher would attempt to defend his sheep dog from an overzealous fox, the illithid masters are willing to use their power to defend their voidmind. They'll not risk themselves for it, but they won't stand idly by and let it die. And they are mentally superior, so being dominated only leads to better tactics.
Finally, as a guard to the three illithids, he will always be attending at least one of them. Usually the one out in the open, the one more likely to be attacked. If the guard begins to fight to defend it's master the other two may assist the third as long as they are within range. Usually thrall bred and illithid host are both detrimental, however to Warped One they are beneficial.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Huh, I could have sworn Rapid Shot had a clause for thrown weapons. Must have been mixing it up with some other feat I was looking at. Likewise, I totally screwed up on the skill requirements.

Yeah I'm taking the Symbiotic Creature template twice. Normally that wouldn't work because, as you said, it changes the type to aberration, but Human Heritage resets it to humanoid.

All those extra attacks come from Multi-Weapon Fighting, since The Siege Tower has 6 hands and 3 tails that count as hands. That's nine attacks; one more from BAB and another from Improved Two Weapon Fighting brings it up to 11 (12 if Rapid Attack counts, but you're right about that), and Palm Throw lets you lob 2 with each attack roll. Now, it's possible that you don't get to keep the hands of the guest creatures, but just in case I mentioned a way that gives you the extra hands unambiguously (kobold variant with claws, forgo Dragonborn on Yap-Yap and Yip-Yip).

Symbiotic is a pain to use for players, because as I read it you can only use it if both creatures have a playable LA, so basically the only playable options are a large creature with Human Heritage (or a couple of really oddball cases, like there's a type of Naga with the humanoid type) and a small humanoid. Uh... I think I was going somewhere when I started this paragraph, but I've forgotten what the ultimate point was supposed to be. The coming out of one egg was basically just fluff; nothing weird happening mechanically (beyond Symbiotic Creature). Symbiosis gives the combined creature the special attacks (dragon breath), special qualities (arguably immunity to paralysis/sleep effects), and skill bonuses (the other part of Aspect of the Mind) of the guests, so while The Siege Tower doesn't literally have all three aspects it has the effects of the other two, and I thought it was neater from a bookkeeping perspective to just list it as gaining the other two.

Lastly, Human Heritage is a necessary part of the build, but the lynchpin is definitely Symbiotic Creature.

Um, I think that's everything.

[jdizzlean]

just a quickie on this, i'll circle back around later for full comments


i think in this comp in particular, that we all tend to try to push the boundaries more so than in the other comps, and we all tend to make that 1 "minor" mistake that affects everything. we get so caught up in "breaking" things that we miss over that thing and then stuff like this round happens.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

How do we score this? Do I get 2nd because I have less points, or do we call it a draw?