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2019-04-23, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-04-23, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
He was also planning on paying for the bill out of his share of the treasure.
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2019-04-23, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Mexico
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
I dont know. To me, it seemed like the deva was trying to get him to react and find out how he felt to see what his outlook of life was. The deva glossed over a lot of stuff like when she brought up first Roy´s teacher before just dropping the subject. The fact that there was a discussion at all, meant that part of the evaluation required interaction with Roy. Afterall, the deva said that it was important to find out if he "fit" there or if he should be sent to a different afterlife.
I think the point of many of the subjects brought up are meant to test him and see if he is has the appropiate mentality for the afterlife. It also allowed the story the chance to give us the message about the importance of trying to improve and keep fighting for what we want even if it isnt easy and sometimes we fail.
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2019-04-23, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
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2019-04-23, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Yes, he could have gone out of his way to expend significant time, resources, and expectable life-years on the task of rescuing Elan, and that would be a generally-agreed-on heroic thing to do. But declining to make significant sacrifices in order to aid the helpless isn't Evil behaviour. (Otherwise you could point at every Neutral person who isn't giving half their income to feed hungry orphans and declare them to be some kind of conscious malefactor.)
I don't consider Elan's pre-existing relationship with Roy to be relevant- his specific obligation to teammates is a Lawful trait, and it's Roy's prerogative to judge how much of a 'friend' Elan is. It's Neutral behaviour that just looks Evil by comparison with what every other member of the team- including, egads, Belkar- is willing to do at the time. (It might be the single most morally upstanding thing we ever see Belkar do.)
I mean yeah, you could have more back-and-forth on the subject, but I'd argue letting Elan on the team in the first place was 'imperilling innocents', and I'm just not inclined to judge Roy too harshly for anything that happens during the 'inconsequential comedy hijinks' phase of the strip. Otherwise you've got, e.g, the problem of addressing what happened to all the goblins left in Dorukan's Dungeon, and Elan is going straight to Hell.
Eh, it's not intrinsically evil to rough someone up for the sake of information, at least in D&D. Taking the Royal Suite was selfish and dumb and underhanded, but not exactly harmful per se.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2019-04-23, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
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2019-04-23, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Since Roy's not lying....I really don't see how he could be expected to speak for/against/about something he didn't at all remember doing. Poor excuse or not, "I don't remember" is really the most accurate thing he could say about dangling the Oracle out the window; and I think the whole doing your best to the limit of your abilities thing applies here as well.
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2019-04-23, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Actually, no, I take that back. It was harmful in the sense that impersonating a monarch could easily and forseeably lead to significant censure by the real monarch he was impersonating and other general complications, even if he was willing to pay for it afterwards, and thus might land both himself and his associates in hot water.
Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2019-04-23, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Which opens us up to a philosophical question. If a paladin fell in the memory-charmed area and then left, would they not remain fallen? True, one cannot expect them to atone for an act they cannot recall, but that does not negate that the act was committed. If a vase is broken and then repaired, are the cracks not still present?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-04-23, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Well, to quote the Deva, "What complicates issues is that you've taken on the role of his commanding officer."
Well, I don't think it's Neutral precisely because Roy led Elan into the situation. If Roy failed to help a stranger, that would be Neutral. Roy being a teammate of Elan is a Lawful issue; but Roy leading Elan into danger and then deliberately abandoning him is a Good-Evil issue, I think.
(Re: Friendship, the question of what that term means is a more complicated one that time will allow for me to answer, but in brief to this point-- sometimes we can be friends with people whose personalities we don't necessarily like if they have other traits that make up for it. I think Elan's loyalty makes him a friend, and Roy doesn't object when Vaarsuvius describes theirs as "a hard-earned friendship.")
At least that, presuming it happened (and the goblins didn't just, I dunno, escape somehow and also avoided Redcloak in the process), wasn't intentionally malicious on Elan's part. But that also happened in Book 1, and Roy's abandoning Elan happened in Book 2, and he's judged on it in Book 4, so I think we are supposed to take it seriously, because the Deva takes it seriously.
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2019-04-23, 11:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Probably simplifies desiring to set right their misdeeds, if being fallen is the only indication of such misdeeds. Or do we break out the divinations/sleuthing and try to determine what they can't recall? Or are we watching Memento instead?
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2019-04-23, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Mexico
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
I doubt a fallen paladin and Roy can be taken in the same situation. The paladin would probably search for the reason behind his falling and realice he fell. I dont think characters without restricting class features can be blamed if they dont find out that their memories were erased and that as such, cannot realize that they might have done something wrong.
As for the question, since Belkar left the place just as sick as he was inside oracle territory, I dont think the paladin gets a free pass to recover his skills.
I still stand by my theory that part of the evaluation is based on how Roy reacts and thinks. I doubt the deva would have given Roy a chance if he laughed or felt proud about any of the actions that the deva brought up. Just to further prove my theory, think about the moment when Belkar was brought up.
The deva mentions how Belkar is evil. How Roy is the commander and holds responsability on some level for his actions. Things like why he keeps Belkar around and his position on the whole situation. And for what? The deva has data that supports how Belkar is doing less evil under his care and the deva doesnt retort Roy when he mentions his reasons for keeping him around. There is zero purpose to this discussion if they already got the data they need. The deva even mentions later in the interview that there is no doubt that he is a good person and that the main issue is whether he is lawful enough for this after life. It really makes the whole discussion about his "not good actions" seem pointless.
IMHO, I think its not about classifying his actions as good or as lawful, the deva labels those actions by herself. Its about what is behind those actions that the deva seemed to care about the most. And how does Roy react to those actions? He excused himself for some his bad actions, which imply that he doesnt exactly think highly of them. He even admits how shameful his actions towards Elan were. All of the scenes show that Roy is a loyal leader who is trying to be a good person and sometimes makes mistakes. For me, the deva doesnt seem interested in discussing the details about anything and mostly seems to be trying to understand Roy as a person.Last edited by DaOldeWolf; 2019-04-23 at 11:59 PM.
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2019-04-24, 12:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-04-24, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2014
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Roy was eight years old at the time. Eight-year-olds do not play for hours. The match itself probably took 45 minutes, tops.
On the other hand, Eugene probably had no input on the time and place since RE sent him an anonymous letter telling him when and where to meet him. Since he had to sneak out of Xykon's lair it's quite possible he arrived late too.
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2019-04-24, 01:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Ugh, this will be a mess on phone.....sorry if I miss a point.
1. Football games:
Good point, I didn't remember that!
But then again, maybe Eugene didn't either? I think he knows about it less than I do.....
I think we are in agreement he did a crappy job trying to attend the game.
2. Xykon
Xykon threatened to torture Lirian.
It's right in the comic.
Also, how should Eugene KNOW he wouldn't kill his family?
Just because he didn't bother to kill him?
Not a chance I would take.
3. Adventure life:
You mean that as a counter argument to quitting the oath for financial reasons?
Then ok, fair point. I forget that adventuring is a valid "profession" in that world.
4. Horace
Ok, we agree then?
5. 2nd worst father
I don't know........
Opinion time!
Which one would you pick given the choice:
Ian or Eugene?
I'd go with Eugene, but still not saying that makes him great or anything. Just I dislike Ian....Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2019-04-24, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Last edited by Peelee; 2019-04-24 at 01:33 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-04-24, 02:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Fair point however Eugene received an anonymous letter giving him a meeting in a sleazy bar without a stated reason* at the same time at his son’s big game. And he chose the bar. I mean it’s possible he spent about an hour soaking in the nostalgia but I doubt it.
1. See above.
2. How would Xykon even know Eugene has a family, let alone who they are and where they live?
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Ian. Ian did what he did out of misaimed care (and to be honest, self-centered pride, too) and was brought around to Haley’s point of view with less screen-time and fewer interactions than Eugene has. Eugene abuses his oldest son out of spite and refused to change his approach AFTER IT HAD GOTTEN HIS SECOND SON KILLED. He even tells to Roy’s face that his, and his siblings’ existence was a mistake.
*Eugene was surprised that RE knew he used to hunt Xykon. And if RE’s message had mentionnés Xykon I doubt Eugene would have bothered to show up at all, whatever you think his motive is.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-04-24, 02:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
1. Do we know the content of the letter? Am at work now, so don't know.
Maybe RE came later than Eugene anticipated?
I got the impression Eugene tried to cram too much into his calendar, and missed the part that was important to his son.
As I said, I'm not particularily much into this "I care about something so my parents better care about it as well and better make time to watch it!" line, which is the most important reason the scene left me with a different impression that most people here, appearantly.
It shows Eugene's priorities, that's for sure.
2. Scrying
Also, the point about Xykon just killing Eugene, leaving Sara and Roy alone.
5. Ian
Interesting.
You are right in what you're saying, it's just that I can't stand the guy.
I would assume I would have a much better relationship with Eugene than Roy did, because I would love to become a wizard - as such Eugene would be more supportive than he is to Roy.
His worse character traits would probably not come out as much as they did.
This doesn't make Eugene a better man than he is....but I still would be happier with him as dad than Ian, I think.
Also because I simply love the ironic lines he gives Roy in book 1 and later. Reminds me of my dad.
What can I say? I love good rhetoric, even when I am on the recieving end of a quip. As long as the reasoning makes sense, I'm all for it.
Catch tetanus on the stick....he heBoytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2019-04-24, 02:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-04-24, 02:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2014
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2019-04-24, 03:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
We know that it was anonymous and had a password.
Why would Eugene consider that important?
But that’s not what is going on. Eugene did not miss a match he was going to with his son. He missed a match his son played in. That’s something Roy presumably trained for during the whole year. And winning is an achievement. It is not playing with LEGO or (solo) video gaming where there is no competition and where practice makes perfect, there was a real chance of failure. Not attending is sending the message that Roy’s achievement, possibly what Roy considered his biggest achievement at the time does not matter. Especially since this was not a singular event but a pattern. Eugene always missed Roy’s matches.
Hilgya couldn’t scary on Durkon and she knew him. You’d expect Xykon to scrub on people he does not know exist? Also Eugene is a master illusionist.
Also I guess you did not look at the page Peelee told you to go to (understandable if you are at work or haven’t bought OtOoPCs) but Eugen is used to dying.
So would I but fatherly love has no business being conditional.
That’s hardly an excuse.
That does not make him a better father.
And if it was simply good natured ribbing that would be fine. But it isn’t, it’s a genuine expression of a father’s contempt for his son.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-04-24 at 03:21 AM.
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2019-04-24, 04:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
I know that my vision of Eugene may differ greatly from what Rich burlew thinks off, yet we know the character "tries" to be lawful good and we also must know that in Roy's story it MUST be seen as an obstacle for Roy (main reason we don't see him on screen doing a lot of good acts) we also should understand that an illusionist is a guy that tries his best to disguise something (why not his intentions?) also we know from Sara's point of view that she got to know the guy (reason why she told off roy when he badmouthed him in front of his mother)
being evil's advocate here, I should remember you that this portrayal is to biase our views towards Eugene not caring to come from Roy's point of view, he could have perfectly see the entire game within the Divination school, which we know he can, then approximate the family after the game has ended.
dunno why you brought there the "eugene is a master illusionists" without backing why it matters that he is a master illusionist. Also Eugene is "used to dying" as you said, BUT he knows very well and first hand that XYKON traps the souls of those he defeats (he did with his master in front of him) that means no resurrecting at all if Eugene fails the deed.
So would I but fatherly love has no business being conditional.
That’s hardly an excuse.
That does not make him a better father.
And if it was simply good natured ribbing that would be fine. But it isn’t, it’s a genuine expression of a father’s contempt for his son.
What we know thou, is that Roy finally did a step (even if he didn't know) to fix his relationship with his father when he didn't throw insults back at his father, and that there is a possibility that once the story is done and Roy does get his reward, we could get a non biased view of Eugene acts of good. (maybe he does ask the devas about him?). then I'll just wait to see what the author has prepared for us once that build-up moment finally comes.
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2019-04-24, 04:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2014
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
I don't Think Xykon traps the souls of everyone he fights, the gem would be a lot more crowded if he had trapped any souls besides Lirian and Dorukan. Lirian was all alone in there until Dorukan got his soul trapped, after all.
Xykon did turn Fyron into a zombie, preventing Eugene from raising him though.
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2019-04-24, 05:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
When it comes to one’s quality as a father whose point of view but the child’s matters?
Approximate? Is that an autocorrect failure?
Anyway watching the game from afar does nothing to support Roy and we know he didn’t, so I’m not sure what you are trying to say.
I assumed that the illusion school of magic provided countermeasures to Scrying. Was I wrong?
No he doesn’t. Xykon zombified Fyron, and seeing that Eugene’s old party seemed high level (based on Eugene himself) that wouldn’t stop Myrtok.
Yes one man can.
This is properly ridiculous. We don’t know that Xykon did not have a vision when he was three that told him that be acting as pointlessly evil all the time he would turn the Prime into a paradise. Seriously, we even know that Eugene went once and only once to the only character we know of with this kind of foresight and we know what he was told.
And after that Eugene still agreed never to see his family again and even later told Roy his existence was a mistake. Roy matured. Eugene didn’t.
What would that change? Eugene could have been a selfless hero all these years it wouldn’t make him a better father.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-04-24, 05:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2018
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Well I certainly hope that there is some outside ideal since I’m pretty sure I win the mantle for “worst mom ever” during every vaccination, homework session and trip to boring boring Hebrew school.
To answer the actual OP from another perspective, I don’t find it necessary to be hyper involved in all of my kids’ activities, but I do find it necessary to make sure that they know that I care about them. Part of that care is showing some interest in their activities. My eldest does Tae Kwon Do, I know almost nothing about it, but I always ask him how class went, and I make sure that I am at every Belt graduation. I don’t have to learn everything because he is the expert and he likes teaching me about his interests.
If I were to fault Eugene with something, it would be not “allowing” his son to be more knowledgeable than he is in something. I think Horace probably suffered from the same delusion. If it didn’t interest him, than it wasn’t important, and if it wasn’t important than the kid wasn’t an expert fighter (or illusionist), he was just a dumb kid wasting his time on silly kid stuff.
I work in a STEM field and have seen my share of kids shoved through college by parents who would just not accept that their kids didn’t want to be doctors. Plenty of them end up in my labs, most don’t view their parents as monsters, just very myopic people. Granted, none of them had exploded siblings or completely neglectful parents, so there’s that.Last edited by CJG; 2019-04-24 at 05:43 AM. Reason: I can’t quote properly
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2019-04-24, 06:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
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- Somewhere over th rainbow
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Eugene can't be all bad!
He did (almost) make it to the LG afterlife, and the reason he fell short was a problem with law (not actively pursuing his vow) so there must be good in him!
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2019-04-24, 06:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
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2019-04-24, 06:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)
Again, I'm in broad agreement that leading a 22-year-old-5-year-old into situations of deadly peril within monster-infested dungeons and wilderness areas was a very morally questionable thing to do... if we were taking the proceedings seriously. But taking the proceedings seriously would imply that rescuing Elan entailed such a high degree of risk that Roy was reasonably entitled to make a call to move on.
In practice, the idea that Roy was abandoning Elan to some grisly fate of death or enslavement is pretty undermined by Elan being... completely fine and dandy until Haley shows up, and the general looney-toons logic of the ensuing battle. It's assigning a moral gravity to the proceedings that just isn't sustained by the tone of the narrative, and there's only around a 50-strip gap between here and Elan recklessly endangering scores of hapless goblinoids and his teammates, which, if not explicitly done out of malice, would be hard to otherwise explain.
To be honest, the main impression I get, given the way that Roy treats NPCs as interchangeable cyphers and later sticks up for Belkar, is less that the commander has an obligation to his men and more that the PCs are a special and protected class of person with expectations of mutual loyalty but immune to broader standards of accountability for their actions. (Which is, in practice, exactly what happens at D&D gaming tables for entirely metagame reasons, and I'm not crazy about that.)
I am aware that the Deva takes the incident seriously later on, but.... that is what I am arguing is kinda wonky. To the extent that Roy was mildly at fault here, he made up for it pretty quickly and has done enough to put up with Elan's general... Elan-ness... that I think it's mostly a nonissue (aside, perhaps, from the general undertone of emotional abuse in their relationship.) And we shouldn't automatically think things just because the text tells us to.Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2019-04-24 at 06:56 AM.
Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2019-04-24, 06:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
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- Somewhere over th rainbow
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2019-04-24, 07:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)