I need help coming up with a some nations, and their reasons for taking part in a war

[King of Nowhere]

But I'm having worldbuilder block...

So, first of all, I should start by some background information.

I built my world mostly on a top-down approach, and I don't fill in the details until necessary. So, I have a good idea of how many high level people are in the world and their allegiances; I know the major power players and their assets and interactions; but I only detailed a handful of nations. I also prefer to keep using the same places, both for clarity (if I keep introducing new stuff, the players will forget half of it) and as a worldbuilding choice (explore what you have before adding new stuff).

The world is quite off from most fantasy world. Tech level is early industrial; not a tippyverse because some key spells for it are lacking, but undead workforce is widespread in menial labor, low level magic is commonplace, teleportation replaces modern air travel at competitive prices. they even have the printing press and newspapers.
The world is not in constant danger by any supernatural threat. If it was, the world's high level population, normally locked in conflicts and rivalries, would be quick to unify and handle the threat. The ordes of orcs are a mild nuisance, and the goblins have been marginalized. If a party of evil adventurers were to run amook, nations have the resources to actually stop them, and the magical facilities to keep them safely locked. This is a world that can take care of itself.
Evil religions have renounced the most insane parts of their doctrine, and have in turn gained official recognition. Followers of vecna do not kidnap people to perform horrible rites on them, they just undertake research that makes other people uncomfortable; on the other hand, major political figures worship vecna without any backlash in popularity, and there is a major vecna cathedral in front of the main cathedral of pelor.
There is a sort of cold war going on between good and evil aligned powers, although the network of alliances and enmities is much more complex that that. the situation is mostly a stalemate.

This is also a world with large development inequalities. Think of the first world/third world divide in the modern world. there are a couple dozen major nations; those are defined as the nations that can afford a magical stronghold capable of repelling a 20th level party, and who would be able to muster enough high level support to also handle such a 20th level party. Most of the world is underdeveloped nations, that look more like traditional fantasy ones (as they cannot protect themselves from high level adventurers, those nations are either too poor to be desirable, or they are subject to frequent coups) or wilderness.

This state of things came to an end when the High Priest of Vecna (HPoV for short) attempted a ritual to become a god by draining the soul of everyone in a major city. this caused many powers to declare war on vecna. HPoV had prepared for it; he had ammassed a large army of liches, and had built a network of alliances to support him in the incoming war. There is now a world war running, with most major nations involved in some ways.
As a rule of thumb, most religions sided against vecna, because they fear vecna's endgame may be of being the only god worshipped, and fear being betrayed themselves. Most nations sided with vecna, because they want power or because have a chance to crush old rivals. some remained neutral.

Regular armies are all but useless in this conflict; nobody is bothering with them. the war is fought by high level adventurers teleporting around in strike teams. There are about 1500-2000 combatants above level 11; about one hundred on each side are above level 15. There are also golem armies; each side has a few thousands of them, mostly iron golems. Some are equipped with gunpowder weaponry. Major powers stockpiled diamonds to raise their high level assets in case of a conflict; strategic diamond resources can be estimated at around 100 million gp on each side.

The party is the major force on the side of good - especially because other high level good parties were selectively targeted by strike teams during HPoV ascension. They can defeat a couple dozen lesser (level 13) opponents, and they can handle their own against vecna's bosses, but the war is too big to be won by them alone, and their coalition is weaker otherwise. vecna's forces have the upper hand in casters, and their respawning liches means they will eventually win the attrition war when the alliance of good runs out of diamonds.

I would like to present my party with a bunch of options to undermine vecna's coalitions. My main inspiration here is Mass Effect 3, where you would perform missions and gain "war resources", and you would gather enough of them to reach a tipping point. I would like to do something similar here: take quest X, and gain the alliance of Y. Take quest Z, and the nation of W will abandon vecna.

The problem is, as much as I have a good idea how many nations are there and how powerful they are, most of them don't even have a name, and I can't come up with any idea.
I would like to have a bunch of vecna-aligned powers, their reasons for being allied with vecna, and quests that the party can undertake to change that alliance, so I can present options to my players. At the same time, the vecnites would also try something similar, so I would not mind also having good nations and reasons for them to swap side.

Those are the nations I got so far

Spoiler: nations and powers of my campaign

Show

Mirna
major nation
Good aligned, very advanced and wealthy. Mostly human. Parliamentary monarchy, high degree of human rights. Strong allies of the church of pelor. About the size of germany, 20 million inhabitants. The party officially works for them.
Resources: 5 level 15 adventurers (not counting the party), plus lower level ones. about 400 war golems.
Allegiance: Good. HPoV tried his soul-sucking ritual in the middle of their capital city, they are understandably pissed.

Tal Calel
major nation
Good aligned, very advanced and wealthy. Mostly elves. Republic, lots of freedom. Official seat of the church of corellon. Long-time allies of mirna.
resources: 10 adventurers above level 15, plus lower ones. About 300 war golems. Strong wizards. All this not counting church resources.
Allegiance: Good. They are strong allies of Mirna, and rivals of vecna.
there is however some ethnic tension; the elves are afraid that humans, with their higher reproductive rate, will eventually take over. Humans are afraid that elves, with their long lives, will gobble up all positions of power. the vecnites may try to use that to weaken the alliance.

Kal Sharok
major nation
Good aligned. Dwarves. Monarchy, traditionalist. Official seat of the church of moradin. Strong allies of Mirna and Tal Calel.
resources: 7 adventurers of level 15+, plus lower ones. About 400 war golems. All this not counting church resources.
Allegiance: Good. They are strong allies of Mirna, and rivals of vecna.
they are also subject to the ethnic tensions with humans, like the elves.

Bananagua
nation
Neutral aligned. On the surface, a very advanced republic with strong human rights. In practice, obstructive burocracy can stall indefinitely everything the government or a tribunal is trying to do. The real power is in the hand of a secret cadre of corrupted officials. It is the seat of a worldwide freemason-like criminal organization. A disturbance in the thaumic field makes it particularly hard to scry on most bananaguan terrain, hence why they attracted high level criminals from everywhere and ended up like that.
Resources: the aforementioned freemasons are the best espionage network in the world. Several high level adventuers signed in with bananagua's special forces to get protection for crimes committed elsewhere, but their actual loialty is doubtful.
Allegiance: not directly participating, but helping good. the freemason leader uses the fractured political situation to play nations against each other. believes that if vecna wins, the world will be unified under a single rule, and he will lose his power. HPoV would certainly not tolerate him as a rival. He is helping the side of good by diplomatically persuading others to stay away from vecna, and by sharing everything he learns through his spying network.

Nerull
religion
Evil aligned. they have a functional society, but they routinely engage in human sacrifices. Traditiional allies of vecna
Resources: one level 17 cleric, lesser clerics, golems. The world's most powerful fighter.
Allegiance: Good. The freemason leader persuaded them that Vecna would betray them too eventually. Still, they aren't all that sold on alliance with their traditional rivals, and they are withholding some resources.
Also, the aforementioned strongest fighter in the world defected and joined vecna. He's bat**** crazy, and liches are less satiisfying to disembowel than people.

Elbonia
Major nation
Evil aligned. Very rich and powerful. Lies on a large island off the coast of Mirna, and has been traditionally rival with Mirna for centuries. Germany-sized, about 20 million inhabitants.
the place is ruled by chess players. Your skill at chess determines your political and human rights. Such a concern for logical-mathematical skill gave them great wizards. As seekers of knowledge, they are also strong allies of vecna.
Resources: 10 level 15+ adventurers, mostly wizards; lower level adventurers, 400 golems, 3 dozen (greater) siege crabs. The most powerful blaster wizard in the world.
Allegiance: Vecna. they are focused on knowledge. they are archenemies of one of the major good forces. their leader (the aforementioned wizard) is personal friend with HPoV and gained lichdom with his help. The leader is a patriot, though, and would rather abandon vecna than cause the destruction of his nation.

Despotonia
Former major nation
Seat of the church of hextor, god of tiranny. Brutal dictatorship. most of the population is de facto enslaved. the country was rich and powerful, though, thanks to their effort.
the players had attacked the nation in the past; they played well the politics, gathering support from them and isolating despotonia. as a result, despotonia is a defeated nation, a husk of its former power; most of its higher level assets deserted it.
Resources: 250 golems. one level 20 fighter with good optimization. one level 17 cleric, plus other church resources.
Allegiance: Good. It started as a vassal of Vecna, as vecna had protected it and stopped its complete capitulation. their leader high priest of hextor (hpoh) however suspects hpov will betray them too, and she was not too hot on the alliance, and there were some high level defections (the result of personal connection built by the players).
ultimately, hpov was visiting hpoh and talking how much they needed "protection", when the party showed up for an assault. feeling crushed between powers above her own, hpoh asked for a duel between the party and hpov, stating that despotonia would serve the strongest master. the party won, gaining the allegiance of despotonia. they later successfully defended despotonia from retaliation, ensuring their continued allegiance.
Some of the despotonian elite defected to vecna, feeling that a good-aligned despotonia would jail them for crimes against humanity

orcs
scattered population
the orcs live in the north, in a siberia-like tundra. they number in the 15-20 millions. they are split in warring tribes. when they unite and try to invade someone else, they are curbstomped because they have absolutely no arcane support. they are not a world power, major or otherwise.
One of the players is an orc, and he became, mostly by chance, their leader and messiah. Now united in purpose and given magical support for their barbarians, the orcs can become a serious power
Resources: a fair number of barbarians above level 11. A decent number of clerics and druids, none with spells above 7th level.
Allegiance: Good. they are fanatically devoted to their messiah, and would follow him everywhere.

the goblin nation
nation
most people think of goblin as hapless riders that annoy caravans and villlages on the border. in truth, goblins have a real nation and real power. they are also very prolific and their environment can't support any more population, which is why they kick out most of their youth; those become the hapless riders, and they are indeed expected to die. the goblis who are allowed to stay are those that show skill and promise, so the goblin nation is actually fairly strong; at least, strong enough that its neighbours find it cheaper to tolerate the strikes than to try and destroy the source of them. They may be worshippers of heritnul, Haven't decided yet.
Resources: unknown, but they do have casters with 9th level spells.
Allegiance: Good. they think hpov will not allow them to keep existing if he takes over. Also, the players dealt with them and used diplomacy, much to my surprise. they handled the goblins well, and as a result the goblins are good friends with the party and likely to follow them.

the dragons
loose organization
the dragons are individualistic, but they unite against common threats. they have a sort of peace agreement with humanoids. they know that high level humanoids pose a threath to the strongest of them, and act accordingly.
basically, they fear that humanoids may unite. Such a united entity may well decide to expand over draconic land, or to enslave dragons.
therefore, the dragons don't want anyone to win, or at least they would like the winner coalition to shatter afterwards.
dragons have a more complex relationship with the humanoids, though: dragons need their loot to stay alive past youth, and humanoids are the greatest producers of loot. So the dragons are wary of humanoids, but they also need them.
Resources: dragons have fairly low numbers, but every adult dragon is high level. If they were truly united, they could probably destroy the humanoids. it would be a close call, though. And good luck uniting all of them.
Allegiance: Neutral, concerned observers. they may help the losing side if certain political conditions are met.

Now, if you got to the end of all that worldbuilding data, you've seen that I have many more powers sided with good than with vecna, so I need to flesh out the vecna coalition a bit more besides the vecna-elbonia ties and the elbonia-mirna rivality.

Thanks to anyone who would help, and thanks just if you took the time to actually read that far .

[SuperbDolphin]

Having a very large and threatening group of gnolls has always been a favourite aspect in wars for me. The idea of a legion of gnolls carrying disease and death wherever they go is something I really like. I strongly suggest looking at adding gnolls into the war somehow.

[TheHighWayMan]

Now, if you got to the end of all that worldbuilding data, you've seen that I have many more powers sided with good than with vecna, so I need to flesh out the vecna coalition a bit more besides the vecna-elbonia ties and the elbonia-mirna rivality.

Thanks to anyone who would help, and thanks just if you took the time to actually read that far .

If I am being honest it seems like most of the traditional "Bad guys" of the D&D world are very much against Vecna ie (Goblins, Orcs etc). Perhaps you could create a kingdom of the Drow or Mindflayers that being evil and wanting to continue their evil acts have joined the side of Vecna.

You may also want to split the "Good" coalition in two different groups (sort of along the ethnic tension lines) where they are both indirectly trying to accomplish the same thing but do not always work in each other's interests. Perhaps the Freemason leader may be sowing some discontentment there (it would not pay to have the winning coalition too united even if he backs their cause). You may also want to add in some other reclusive inwards facing nations that do not have a lot of ties to anyone else but are just trying to benefit from the conflict however they can (sort of similar to the Dragons but instead are an active third group in the conflict).

In summary, if you are trying to make it an epic battle of good vs evil you are going to need to significantly increase the strength of the evil coalition, or perhaps add in other sides to the mix and make it a slightly more complicated conflict where, although there is still the epic battle of good and evil, there are other groups which are actively trying to change the status quo in all the chaos.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Their could be a sort of war between the oppressive gnome warlords and the kobold revolutionaries. Just to make some weird contrast from traditional gnomes.
These gnomes use their technological superiority for WAR!
They have almost wiped out the kobold populace, with only a few clinging on to survival.
I am thinking of them licving in a large walled city choked with fumes and industrialization.

[King of Nowhere]

If I am being honest it seems like most of the traditional "Bad guys" of the D&D world are very much against Vecna ie (Goblins, Orcs etc).

Unfortunately.
Actually, most of those evil factions started as opponent, and were supposed to have either allied with vecna, or being neutral. They all fought against the party and their allies at some point.
However, my players have been very good at making friends. They are nice to their foes and almost always try to solve conflicts diplomatically. They are mostly neutral, they are not trying to get evil factions to "amend their wicked ways". They are ruthless against their enemies, but magnanimous in victory. They often befriended defeated foes. And they never betrayed an ally.

All this makes them much less threatening, even to the evil factions, compared to the vecna guy who played nice for 700 years and then suddenly betrayed a nation with whom it was in good relationship and tried to suck the soul out of millions of people.
That's the sort of thing that makes one's allies uneasy.
So in the end it just made sense that many of vecna's potential allies would end up on the other side. Plus, i had to reward the players for all their hard work.

I had already strenghtened the vecna coalition by giving them 400 liches that vecna had secretly raised for centuries in preparation for this moment; so he doesn't need as many allies as the good guys.

Your suggestions have merit and i was thinking along similar lines. I'll try to expand a bit on those ideas.
I am a bit worried about introducing drows or mind flayers in the world as they were never featured before; i don't like throwing in new races/major worldbuilding elements out of the blue like that, i feel the setting loses consistency.
I may make them extraplanar creatures (thus justifying that they did not take a hand in politics before) joining vecna for the promise of loot maybe.

[Wizard_Lizard]

There could be a faction of druids.

[Mrark]

What about the githyanki and their lich Queen?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Mayve a faction devoted to knowledge at all costs.
Mostly wizards and warlocks.
Mostly elves gnomes tieflings and any other ace with an INT bonus.

[Sparky McDibben]

What about people willing to ally with the Vecnites? There's a great scene in Starship Troopers where these infantry drop onto a hostile planet on a raid. The object of the raid is to convince a minor power to break their alliance with the main bad guys. Might be a decent adventure for an adventuring party.

As for the minor power, you mentioned some income disparity. If there are third world countries in your setting with autocracies, kleptocracies, or even republics with poor electoral accountability, the Vecnites might be able to convince the rulers to side with them.

What if the Vecnites promised this ruling class they would get a lot of loot and respect from those condescending first world jerks if they sided with the Vecnites? There wouldn't have to be many people convinced, and in fact most of the people in this place could be against the plan. Now you've got some tension. The country is allying with the Vecnites, but the actual citizens want to be neutral. How does the party come at this problem?

You could:

A) Give them several options to infiltrate the minor power (whom we will call Generia): teleport in, infiltrate on foot, as part of a diplomatic mission, just charge straight in...etc.
B) Give them quest hooks - they might start out learning the power players, or they might want to go straight at the Generians. If they want to scout first, bring up that the people here are poor, dispossessed, and in need of some help. If they charge the Generians and lose, maybe a rebel cell springs them from the dungeons and says, "You owe use three favors, bub. You do those, we can help you get close to Lord High General B'Gosh."
C) And Final Battle.

Thoughts?

[TheHighWayMan]

... I had already strenghtened the vecna coalition by giving them 400 liches that vecna had secretly raised for centuries in preparation for this moment; so he doesn't need as many allies as the good guys.

Your suggestions have merit and i was thinking along similar lines. I'll try to expand a bit on those ideas.
I am a bit worried about introducing drows or mind flayers in the world as they were never featured before; i don't like throwing in new races/major worldbuilding elements out of the blue like that, i feel the setting loses consistency.
I may make them extraplanar creatures (thus justifying that they did not take a hand in politics before) joining vecna for the promise of loot maybe.

Depending on how you have already worked the sewing it is possible that the Drow/Mindflayers are a very closed nation (and as such previously had not interacted with the campaign nations all that much - ie a Hermit Kingdom). Alternatively if Vecna had been planning this war for 700 or so years it is also entirely possible that his Church has been practicing creating monstrosities and mutants somewhere a bit outside of the puli eye. This could help explain the Mindflayers (an offshoot of these experiments) and possibly allow you to use some other aberrations to strengthen his army. Perhaps the laboratory is currently located somewhere in Despotonia, using the political chaos there to hide what they are doing (perhaps another adventure into Despotonia would be needed to stop any more of these monsters being created - allowing the PCs to return to some previous haunts).

If neither of these solutions are your cup of tea, there is always Coups and Civil Unrest. Although the leadership of Tai Calel is good aligned it is entirely possible that much of the population is a bit more neutrally aligned so with the right push Vecna might be able to start a Coup or some serious Civil Unrest that will effectively neutralise the nation until the PCs step in. (You could probably do this with most of the other nations aside from Mirna).

[Mrark]

Come on guys, our enemies already have more powerful forces than us. Don't add more enemies D:

[King of Nowhere]

Come on guys, our enemies already have more powerful forces than us. Don't add more enemies D:

the point is not to come up with more enemies. it is already established that there are more enemies. the point is to characterize those enemies.
I flat out stated that "most religions sided against vecna because they fear the expansiionism" and that in turn "most nations sided with vecna, basically for profit or on a enemy-of-my-enemy basis". I also wrote down accurately the number of high level people loial (or at least willing to fight) to each side, split by divine casters, arcane casters, and martials.
It's just that aside from Elbonia and Despotonia (which was turned by the party's efforts), I don't have any kind of description for any of those nations (or generically powers). I don't even have names.

What about people willing to ally with the Vecnites? There's a great scene in Starship Troopers where these infantry drop onto a hostile planet on a raid. The object of the raid is to convince a minor power to break their alliance with the main bad guys. Might be a decent adventure for an adventuring party.

As for the minor power, you mentioned some income disparity. If there are third world countries in your setting with autocracies, kleptocracies, or even republics with poor electoral accountability, the Vecnites might be able to convince the rulers to side with them.

the problem with the minor powers is that they don't have power.

this war if fought by iron golem and high level adventurers. there are about 4500 people above level 11, roughly 60 above level 17, split roughly evenly between both sides (that's about half the world total). If you can't supply someone of that level, you are not making a difference. poor nations tend to have almost bobody above 5th level, because those with that kind of skill generally try to move into one of the rich nations. in fact, earlier in the campaign a paladin asked the party's help against a self-proclaimed evil dictator who was able to conquer a poor nation with his spellcasting.
That guy was an 8th level sorceror. Without much equipment.

on the other hand, while the really poor nations won't make any difference, there is the possibility of using so-called second world nations. those are nations that have enough power/resources/importance that while they cannot stand alone, they can ally with a more powerful nation for protection. It is established that many nations have one or two of those.
the only one characterized is called Morsk, it is a vassal state of Mirna, and the place where the party began its story at level 2. It is a major producer of copper, which is the reason Mirna is willing to protect it - in exchange for favorable trade agreements. It has at least a handful of casters with 6th level spells, some of whom could be hired and considered loial (Here "loial" is defined as "won't switch sides as soon as he's offered a better pay").
A handful of level 11-12 people is not much on the scale of this global war, but if vecna had managed to persuade a couple dozens of those minor powers to ally with him, a quest to swap their allegiance would cause a significant power shift. Worth working on it.

[Wizard_Lizard]

There could be an order of paladins devoted to stopping vecna.

[King of Nowhere]

There could be an order of paladins devoted to stopping vecna.

every order of paladin is already mobilized against vecna. they are one of the reasons the good side has more martials

[Wizard_Lizard]

every order of paladin is already mobilized against vecna. they are one of the reasons the good side has more martials

Ok. That makes sense.

[TheHighWayMan]

The problem with the minor powers is that they don't have power.

this war if fought by iron golem and high level adventurers. there are about 4500 people above level 11, roughly 60 above level 17, split roughly evenly between both sides (that's about half the world total). If you can't supply someone of that level, you are not making a difference. poor nations tend to have almost nobody above 5th level, because those with that kind of skill generally try to move into one of the rich nations. in fact, earlier in the campaign a paladin asked the party's help against a self-proclaimed evil dictator who was able to conquer a poor nation with his spellcasting.
That guy was an 8th level sorceror. Without much equipment.

on the other hand, while the really poor nations won't make any difference, there is the possibility of using so-called second world nations. those are nations that have enough power/resources/importance that while they cannot stand alone, they can ally with a more powerful nation for protection. It is established that many nations have one or two of those.
the only one characterized is called Morsk, it is a vassal state of Mirna, and the place where the party began its story at level 2. It is a major producer of copper, which is the reason Mirna is willing to protect it - in exchange for favorable trade agreements. It has at least a handful of casters with 6th level spells, some of whom could be hired and considered loial (Here "loial" is defined as "won't switch sides as soon as he's offered a better pay").
A handful of level 11-12 people is not much on the scale of this global war, but if vecna had managed to persuade a couple dozens of those minor powers to ally with him, a quest to swap their allegiance would cause a significant power shift. Worth working on it.

I think fundamentally, because the forces are split pretty much evenly between the two sides, the minor powers would be have more influence than you give them credit for. If all your forces are tied up on the front against Vecna, you will not have anything left to repel an invading force of peasants. Just because they are peasants does not mean they cannot overwhelm a city's defences and take out an important supply chain for the Good Alliance.

Although it might seem like it, level 11+ characters are not all powerful either. Especially with the way 5e does Hp and attacks a large group of level one peasants could in theory take on a fairly high level party and win (although you might kill like a hundred of them they will wear you down slowly but surely - by the law of averages at least some are going to roll nat 20s - and eventually you will run out of things to throw at them.).

Another possible way of including third world nations is as a source of resources. Third world nations typically have better/more easily extractable natural resources due to them not having been exploited in the same way they are in first world nations. (Think of the overfishing or Centuries of mining that occurred in the first world nation to get them where they are now). This means that third world nations could prove a veritable haven of nature resources. This might translate to rare spell ingredients being much more common in these lands or treasure troves of gold and platinum being discovered. If they are in an alliance with Vecna this might mean that the Vecnites may have better equipment than their counterparts on the good side giving them a slight edge in combat. In war numerical superiority is not everything.

[Tvtyrant]

Nations I see missing:

Sea and Deepsea: Merfolk tribal nomads that drift across the vast oceans, their sharing hunting waters with Megalodons and whales makes them a natural source of high level characters. The evil ones might be allied with krakens and Aboleths, who can trade magical might for the advantages of raw numbers.

Alternia: A force of adventurers from an alt timeline or the future where Vecna wins and teleported through time to stop it. They are few but strong, their greatest weakness is that they are being hunted by Inevitables as they try to manipulate the timeline.

Doomcult: A cult of normal citizens who want Vecna to win and free them of the tyranny of high level adventurers. They seem themselves as already being slaves, better a less capricious master.

[Nagog]

In this case, if you want the party to make some tactical decisions on what they'd like to do and see how that would effect the enemy forces, I'd suggest having an NPC (perhaps a level 20 Rogue Mastermind who was critically wounded in an assassination attempt?) who has some kind of information network for them to plan strategic attacks on. Targets such as Iron Golem manufacturing, headquarters of enemy Champions and their movements, etc. I find buildup to assassination missions to be rather fun, with pre-assassination missions including targeting the target's assets, attacking those close to them, etc. This could also lead into rescue missions for members of this Mastermind's network, etc. In some high-stakes scenarios, perhaps the party is sent to investigate something too dangerous to be handled by a lower leveled informant. In any case, I strongly suggest creating some kind of NPC to give them specific options on things they can do for missions.

Also, particularly in a large scale war many smaller nations/factions may take advantage of the chaos to seize power and resources and blame it on the larger enemy. That can be fun.

[Sparky McDibben]

Poor nations tend to have almost nobody above 5th level, because those with that kind of skill generally try to move into one of the rich nations. in fact, earlier in the campaign a paladin asked the party's help against a self-proclaimed evil dictator who was able to conquer a poor nation with his spellcasting.
That guy was an 8th level sorceror. Without much equipment.

I would love to hear how an 8th level sorcerer took over a country. I hope that didn't sound dickish - I really am curious about how that went down, so if you have time, can you put that up?

this war if fought by iron golem and high level adventurers. there are about 4500 people above level 11, roughly 60 above level 17, split roughly evenly between both sides (that's about half the world total). If you can't supply someone of that level, you are not making a difference.

In that case, does it make sense to provide nations, or should you provide characters? Maybe an adventure is them trying to recruit free agents!

Players: "Hey man, you wanna help destroy the Vecnites?"

Free Agent: "Ooh, I would love to, but I got a danish coming. Kinda not feeling it right now."

Players: "...so do you want a flyer?"

If power resides in individuals rather than in national identities, then focus your attention on recruiting those individuals. As for iron golems, those things aren't cheap! Throw the players on the defensive by having the Vecnites attack the golem foundry! Or give them a quest to find an item that will allow them to control or dominate Vecnite golems/undead/etc (like the control rod from Dragon Age: Origins). Focus on securing supply lines! What if there's a devastating loss of bat guano and now the good guys have to ration fireballs! That's a bad example, but what about diamond dust? The Vecnites are controlling the diamond mines and choking off the required components for resurrections/revivifies/etc.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I once had a lvl 11 paladin oathbreaker have to fight about forty dire wolves and lost. So numbers are clearly very important.

[TheHighWayMan]

I once had a lvl 11 paladin oathbreaker have to fight about forty dire wolves and lost. So numbers are clearly very important.

Plus very few High Level characters can manage to be in multiple places at once, placing greater onus on numerical superiority - even if these numbers are comprised mostly of peasants.

[Mrark]

I think fundamentally, because the forces are split pretty much evenly between the two sides, the minor powers would be have more influence than you give them credit for. If all your forces are tied up on the front against Vecna, you will not have anything left to repel an invading force of peasants. Just because they are peasants does not mean they cannot overwhelm a city's defences and take out an important supply chain for the Good Alliance.

Although it might seem like it, level 11+ characters are not all powerful either. Especially with the way 5e does Hp and attacks a large group of level one peasants could in theory take on a fairly high level party and win (although you might kill like a hundred of them they will wear you down slowly but surely - by the law of averages at least some are going to roll nat 20s - and eventually you will run out of things to throw at them.).

We are playing 3.5, and a nat20 does not mean automatic success, it just give you a bonus of +10 if I’m not wrong (and I kinda like it, it is realistic: a paesant with a knife should never be able to hurt a 45+CA powerful character). So even in thousands they would be useless: just hire a couple flying conjurers would do all the work I think.

[King of Nowhere]

Although it might seem like it, level 11+ characters are not all powerful either. Especially with the way 5e does Hp and attacks / by the law of averages at least some are going to roll nat 20s

we are using 3.5. Wwe are also using the optional rule that a natural 20 is a 30, so an army of paesants can't do anythhing against something with AC over 40. COnsider the amount of magic needed to get there, I see it as more realistic. It's like trying to harm a tank with a knife.

And while a large force of paesants would eventually wear down a high level party by exhaustion, there are a couple factors
1) the high level party can teleport away when they are out of resources, and come back tomorrow. nothing the paesants can do will stop them.
2) what kind of mob would keep charging at a foe that is flying around, throwing fireballs, slay everyone that comes close, and is utterly impervious to their attacks - can quickly heal those few that manage some damage? They would break and run soon enough.

Another possible way of including third world nations is as a source of resources. Third world nations typically have better/more easily extractable natural resources due to them not having been exploited in the same way they are in first world nations. (Think of the overfishing or Centuries of mining that occurred in the first world nation to get them where they are now). This means that third world nations could prove a veritable haven of nature resources. This might translate to rare spell ingredients being much more common in these lands or treasure troves of gold and platinum being discovered. If they are in an alliance with Vecna this might mean that the Vecnites may have better equipment than their counterparts on the good side giving them a slight edge in combat. In war numerical superiority is not everything.

that's a goood point.
I already had some plans for the diamond supplies - most diamond production is concentrated in a few small states that are in some way a parallel and a parody of the real world middle east. other resources may also be relevant, and in fact having resources is one of the ways for poor nations to become relevant.
I could figure out other resources. Especially since I houseruled that magic cannot, barring large xp expenditure, create anything lasting. A wall of stone/iron will eventually dissolve. Magic food will give you energy, but you'll need real proteins and vitamins and stuff eventually. So they can't just magic in more resources.

I would love to hear how an 8th level sorcerer took over a country. I hope that didn't sound dickish - I really am curious about how that went down, so if you have time, can you put that up?

Nothing special. He went to the previous guy in charge, killed him, and declared himself in charge. The previous guy himself took the place by killing someone else.
Sure, if the population revolted they would easily kick him away, but hundreds will die. And for what? the next guy with some levels is going to take over anyway.
I took inspiration for the poor nations from the western continent in oots. everyone with some power can take a throne. chances are, he'll be steamrolled shortly after. The general population is too beaten down to care much, except for trying to get away. If a place gets enough stability that it may become a real nation, it starts to become worth looting, and it will attract higher level foes.
Sometimes nations can rise. they can get protection from one of the powerful countries, or they may find protection from some paladins.

In that case, does it make sense to provide nations, or should you provide characters? Maybe an adventure is them trying to recruit free agents!

Players: "Hey man, you wanna help destroy the Vecnites?"

Free Agent: "Ooh, I would love to, but I got a danish coming. Kinda not feeling it right now."

Players: "...so do you want a flyer?"

If power resides in individuals rather than in national identities, then focus your attention on recruiting those individuals.

There are complex interactions between individual power and national identities.
On one hand, a high level adventurer is very powerful, truly capable of altering the balance of power by himself.
On the other hand, many high and mid level adventurers are stronger than one. And people will rarely follow a single person. People may be willing to follow an ideal, though. Hence why the great nations and religions are more powerful than adventurers, because they can inspire loialty. So there is power both in the ideal and in the people following it. A nations' resources include also plenty of mid-level experts that can provide pretty much any service, lots of money, contacts, so there are advantages to serve one.
that's it in a nutshell, but indivitual cases can be more complex.
A nation can certainly fall for failing to get high level loial people, and a single powerful individual attaching himself to a nation may well make a difference - the church of vecna went from a bunch of dorks hiding in basements to a worldwide power because of the actions of a single man, the nation of mirna became the major force of good because the party attached themselves to it, and so on.

However, only extremely powerful (or crafty) individuals can shape the world by themselves. even most 17th level people won't make it. So, I prefer to think in terms of nations, each one of those will have certain strategic resources, including mid and mid-high adventurers, a magic super-stronghold, caches of diamonds, espionage, political connections, and so on.

Particolarly powerful (or influential) individuals can be powerhouses by themselves; if they have a name and personality, they can be influenced to win their loialty. For example, when the party went at war with despotonia around one year ago, I established the despotonian top team to serve as boss opponents. As they all developed distinct personalities and loialties, and the party interacted repeatedly with them, I was able to treat them individually.
the warrior deserted to go with the party because he's honorable and respected the party more than vecna (he was raised in a family with strict god-family-fatherland values, would have been good if the god hadn't been hextor), the rogue went with the warrior because they have a long-time friendship going back since elementary school and she owes him a lot (the warrior was sent to public school by the family because he had to become strong, had fights with other bullies for control, became the main bully of school; she was from a poor family, but she was sneaky and managed to steal stuff from him; he respected her skill and elevated her to nobility), the cleric was won by a show of force (she believes in hextor, and she will do her best to ensure that he keeps being worshipped), and the wizard went with vecna because he's a horrible individuals and figures the good guys would put him to trial if they win (he killed over a hundred people for the slightest insults, often harming passersby too; he charmed the girl he wanted to marry so much that he basically erased her personality).

however, few npcs have that level of backstory and connections. But yes, those who have can be persuaded individually.

I don't know if I'm clarifying or making things more confused. I haven't read anyone else trying to do geopolitics influenced by high level characters on that scale.
Thinking of how a superpowered elite would affect the power balances was one of my major explorations in worldbuilding. But it's hard to explain, especially when taking into account specific cases.

[TheHighWayMan]

we are using 3.5. Wwe are also using the optional rule that a natural 20 is a 30, so an army of paesants can't do anythhing against something with AC over 40. Consider the amount of magic needed to get there, I see it as more realistic. It's like trying to harm a tank with a knife.

And while a large force of peasants would eventually wear down a high level party by exhaustion, there are a couple factors
1) the high level party can teleport away when they are out of resources, and come back tomorrow. nothing the paesants can do will stop them.
2) what kind of mob would keep charging at a foe that is flying around, throwing fireballs, slay everyone that comes close, and is utterly impervious to their attacks - can quickly heal those few that manage some damage? They would break and run soon enough.

Hmmm... that does make it slightly more difficult, but even then sheer force of arms could be useful. Perhaps by using some of the diamond mines the Vencanites could equip the Peasants with scrolls/wands making them far more powerful than they otherwise would be. Maybe the peasants will not be successful, but its going to make it a hell of a lot harder for the PCs to win (ie giving them grenades so they can take down a tank). Alternatively high level PCs will still need the support of nations to win the war. Although the PCs can teleport away they might be abandoning a City or some-other strategically important location to the enemy which will in turn come back to bite them over the course of the war. Like sure they can come back the next day fully rested but the city may be in ruins and hundreds of thousands may have been slaughtered.

Also as a side note are there Giants in this world?

[Tvtyrant]

Wands of fell drain sonic snap are a thing, so massed infantry can quickly kill high level adventurers. I think it is fine to hand wave it and say it just doesn't work for raisins.

[TheHighWayMan]

Wands of fell drain sonic snap are a thing, so massed infantry can quickly kill high level adventurers. I think it is fine to hand wave it and say it just doesn't work for raisins.

That is very true.

Doing some maths the cost should be about 2 * 3 *750 = 4500 GP per wand

Which although is a lot for an individual to buy would probably just be a drop in the bucket for a world power, especially if it means taking out a high level PC

[King of Nowhere]

Wands of fell drain sonic snap are a thing, so massed infantry can quickly kill high level adventurers. I think it is fine to hand wave it and say it just doesn't work for raisins.

there is no fell drain and no sonic snap.
While I am not against using non-core stuff, I try to keep it simple, as the party casters haven't even mastered the core spell list.
Also, I don't like to introduce new stuff that would impact the setting in a large way - unless maybe as a "they just invented this new stuff, and it's going to have consequences" kind of plot.

Basically, as I established the setting, the only thing that can really stop high level people is more high level people.
that said, nations are far from useless. they have several strategical assets that will make the difference, including strongholds, golem armies, diamond storages, enough money in the tresaury to hire pretty much anyone, and allies. those are all resources that are not dependant on having loial high level people, so nations do shift the power balance beyond the adventurers they provide.

Also as a side note are there Giants in this world?

yes, I used them once and then I completely forgot about them before you asked.

they are tribal, scarcely intelligent and living in the wilderness. they are not important to the world at large.
I guess if somebody somehow managed to recruit them it would provide a nice amount of decently-powered melee types; just like with the orcs, actually.
So, "persuade giants to fight for you" could make for a good plot hook.

[noob]

How do their fortresses resist adventurer assaults.
Step 1 of an adventurer assault: orbital bombardment with thousands of heavy iron rods or voidstone warheads.
you could make prismatic walls all above the fortress but the costs would be insane.

[King of Nowhere]

How do their fortresses resist adventurer assaults.
Step 1 of an adventurer assault: orbital bombardment with thousands of heavy iron rods or voidstone warheads.
you could make prismatic walls all above the fortress but the costs would be insane.

a closed sphere of prismatic walls encased in permanent antimagic fields, liberally sprinkled with miracles and wishes to make the whole thing more dispel-resistant and to cover up specific weaknesses that cannot be covered otherwise.

Yes, the cost is insane. it takes a large nation saving for decades to build one. But it provides stability. in a world with superpowered people, being able to protect your most valuable assets from them makes the difference between a state of anarchy where the stronger rules, and a real government.
As I was considering the implications of having superpowered people - several worshipping gods of evil/demons - running amook, I decided that either civilization would manage to build that kind of bunkers, or there could be no lasting civilization.

as they are a major worldbuilding element, shaping the ppower relation between nations and adventurers, them existing and functioning takes precedence over specific rules. I told my players that if some specific spell or strategy would allow to bypass those defences, it is assumed that the spell/strategy doesn't exist, doesn't work as written, or is countered by a specific defence.

they still can be opened with enough effort, and in fact the players did manage to crack one of vecna's bunkers so far; but it involved a whole army of hundreds of people above level 10, well above the capacity of a high level party alone.

[TheHighWayMan]

a closed sphere of prismatic walls encased in permanent antimagic fields, liberally sprinkled with miracles and wishes to make the whole thing more dispel-resistant and to cover up specific weaknesses that cannot be covered otherwise.

Yes, the cost is insane. it takes a large nation saving for decades to build one. But it provides stability. in a world with superpowered people, being able to protect your most valuable assets from them makes the difference between a state of anarchy where the stronger rules, and a real government.
As I was considering the implications of having superpowered people - several worshipping gods of evil/demons - running amook, I decided that either civilization would manage to build that kind of bunkers, or there could be no lasting civilization.

as they are a major worldbuilding element, shaping the ppower relation between nations and adventurers, them existing and functioning takes precedence over specific rules. I told my players that if some specific spell or strategy would allow to bypass those defences, it is assumed that the spell/strategy doesn't exist, doesn't work as written, or is countered by a specific defence.

they still can be opened with enough effort, and in fact the players did manage to crack one of vecna's bunkers so far; but it involved a whole army of hundreds of people above level 10, well above the capacity of a high level party alone.

Question: What were to happen if someone went and opened a Portal to the Abyss and just started dropping demons on the fortress? Or alternatively go with a giant horde of undead and swarm the fortress? Surely the very fact of having these fortresses around makes them key targets for any hostile nation. Would it not make more sense to instead use secrecy and hide ones leaders rather than stick them in (an albiet imposing) in a fortress.

Going out on a limb here how do the leaders manage to get in these fortresses?