The Illustrated Dragonlance Reread

[Keltest]

As I recall, Tanis actually wanted to send off Tika with the elves, rather than have her along for the adventure. He gave up because he wasn't arguing from a position of strength and had no real capability to force her to stay.

[Slayer Lord]

Now if you're smashing dudes in plate armor with a pole-axe, you're gonna want a lot of sheer strength, but that isn't what adventurers usually get up to.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing more anti-armor weapons being used against, say, dragons and the like in this kind of fiction. Swords are great, but realistically they shouldn't be that useful against something covered in steel-hard (or more) scales.

[Liquor Box]

I often think the strength requirement for at least some forms of combat is overstated, particularly in actual-by-the-rules D&D. Sure being able to hit harder is good, but if you're hitting somebody not wearing armor, a three foot long sharpened bit of steel delivers a just obscene amount of cutting power anyway. You'll probably get a better cut with more work on edge alignment and technique than being able to deadlift another 20lbs. Now if you're smashing dudes in plate armor with a pole-axe, you're gonna want a lot of sheer strength, but that isn't what adventurers usually get up to.

Not sure about that.

Grab a 2 litre (just half a gallon if that's your measurement) of milk an wave it around with one arm, cutting and thrusting and sometimes extending it out in front of you. Then remember that it would be harder if the weight extended out like a blade instead of being in a bottle with a handle. I think most people of average strength would find it a little hard to wield a longsword with speed, but as you get stronger than average the ease with which you'd be able to thrust a riposte would increase

That's all aside from the more obvious advantage of being able to more easily smash past your opponents guard.

In my opinion massive strength wouldn't be that much of an advantage (although it would with larger weapons or bludgeoning weapons), but having significantly more strength than the average fit man would be an advantage.

[Saph]

In my opinion massive strength wouldn't be that much of an advantage (although it would with larger weapons or bludgeoning weapons), but having significantly more strength than the average fit man would be an advantage.

It's a big advantage. Fighting someone in hand-to-hand who's significantly bigger and stronger than you is a very bad idea, and it really doesn't matter very much what kind of weapon you're using. The reason you get 'adventurers' in fantasy books who look like Larry Elmore illustrations is because they're fantasy books.

[Rodin]

It's a big advantage. Fighting someone in hand-to-hand who's significantly bigger and stronger than you is a very bad idea, and it really doesn't matter very much what kind of weapon you're using. The reason you get 'adventurers' in fantasy books who look like Larry Elmore illustrations is because they're fantasy books.

Yup. Going back to Paksenarrion, the first bit of combat training she receives is basically weightlifting - she's given a weighted piece of wood and told to hold it out like a sword, then slowly move it from one position to another for hours at a time. Only after that does a wooden training sword get introduced, and it's later still for a shield. We see another soldier being told to do shield exercises that are simply raising and lowering it (again, weightlifting) because their arm had been broken and they needed to get their strength up. That's all without mentioning the fitness required to march cross-country while wearing leather armor, a metal helmet, and carrying sword and shield.

[Lord Torath]

Regarding Tika's armor, she must be a shrimp. Elves are normally shorter than humans, so if she's too small for their armor, she must be really small. An average male elf (in 2E AD&D, anyway) is 60 inches tall (5'0" or 1.52 m), ranging from 4'-8" (1.42 m) to 5'-5" (1.73 m). Female elves are 5 inches (13 cm) shorter.

Also, Warty Goblin, I think you left out an "out" in your declaration regarding +3 salt shakers.

[bguy]

Regarding Tika's armor, she must be a shrimp. Elves are normally shorter than humans, so if she's too small for their armor, she must be really small. An average male elf (in 2E AD&D, anyway) is 60 inches tall (5'0" or 1.52 m), ranging from 4'-8" (1.42 m) to 5'-5" (1.73 m). Female elves are 5 inches (13 cm) shorter.

I don't think the DL novels follow the game rules on elven height. Solostaran, Porthios, and Laurana are all explicitly described as being tall and

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In Dragons of Winter Night it is stated that Solostaran "towered" over the half of the party that were before him, a group that included Derek Crownguard (a man who had himself been described as being tall.) Between Solostaran being significantly taller than even a tall human and Tika being to small for elven armor, that makes me think that the novels at least are following a more Tolkien approach to height with elves being on average taller than humans.

[Keltest]

I don't think the DL novels follow the game rules on elven height. Solostaran, Porthios, and Laurana are all explicitly described as being tall and

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In Dragons of Winter Night it is stated that Solostaran "towered" over the half of the party that were before him, a group that included Derek Crownguard (a man who had himself been described as being tall.) Between Solostaran being significantly taller than even a tall human and Tika being to small for elven armor, that makes me think that the novels at least are following a more Tolkien approach to height with elves being on average taller than humans.

Its also possible that only applied to the Kanan family. The armor was Laurana's mother's after all.

[Talakeal]

Laurana was always described as short iirc, and willow-thin, as opposed to Tika's curvier physique.

It might just be a mistake, they meant to say that the armor was too small for her and got mixed up in transcribing it to the page.

[bguy]

Its also possible that only applied to the Kanan family. The armor was Laurana's mother's after all.

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Maybe but Dalamar is described in the Legends books as being “taller than Raistlin by at least a head and shoulders” so that’s an example of an elf outside the Kanan family who is also significantly taller than a human.

[Keltest]

Laurana was always described as short iirc, and willow-thin, as opposed to Tika's curvier physique.

It might just be a mistake, they meant to say that the armor was too small for her and got mixed up in transcribing it to the page.

Armor that is too large could be worn, albeit somewhat uncomfortably. Armor that is too small really cant, the same way you cant wear a shoe that is too small.

[bguy]

Laurana was always described as short iirc, and willow-thin, as opposed to Tika's curvier physique.

You are correct about Laurana being described as willow-thin but not about her being described as short. She was definitely described as being tall.

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From Dragons of Winter Night.

"One of the guards opened the door, obviously intending to announce someone. But words failed him and, before he could speak, a tall, slender figure dressed in a heavy, hooded fur cloak, pushed past the guard and ran toward the Speaker. Startled, seeing only that the figure was armed with sword and bow, the Speaker shrank back in alarm.

The figure threw back the hood of her cloak. The Speaker saw honey-colored hair flow down around a woman's face-a face remarkable even among the elves for its delicate beauty.

"Father!" she cried, then Laurana was in his arms."

[Gnoman]

Is it possible that 1E elves were larger than 2E ones? That may have been something that got changed around the same time hobbits became halflings, but I don't have any OD&D or 1E books to check.

[sihnfahl]

gnomish inventions can be made quite practical.

I dunno, the ship Palin, his brothers and Dougan take to the Greygem quest was practical.

Sure, it moved slow (since the sail stayed open when it hit the water), but it did ensure the crew was flush with fresh fish....

[JadedDM]

According to the Tales of the Lance character cards, Tika is 5'8" while Laurana is only 5'6". Meanwhile, Dalamar and Raistlin are both 5'9".

[Keltest]

Is it possible that 1E elves were larger than 2E ones? That may have been something that got changed around the same time hobbits became halflings, but I don't have any OD&D or 1E books to check.

My AD&D1e monster manual describes elves as being Medium sized (5'+), ie 5 feet tall or more. Most flavors of human are simply described as Medium, with no specific height values. Presumably the authors did not feel the need to clarify normal human heights to said humans.

Its possible that, given the incomplete nature of the armor and Tika's relative inexperience and unpreparedness, that they were missing a gambeson and other paddings that would normally be worn under armor. They occasionally mention that Tike wears only her barmaid clothes under her armor, a habit that she apparently never changes through the trilogy.

[Lord Torath]

Is it possible that 1E elves were larger than 2E ones? That may have been something that got changed around the same time hobbits became halflings, but I don't have any OD&D or 1E books to check.

Not really. The 1E PHB says to see the Monster Manual for physical description, which lists elves as "Size: M (5' + tall)". Half-elves are described as "being only slightly taller than the average elf (5'-6") and weighing about 150 lbs.

I think it's more likely that Hickman and Weiss just "forgot" that elves are shorter than humans. Can anyone recall any place in the books where they describe elves being shorter than humans?

[bguy]

According to the Tales of the Lance character cards, Tika is 5'8" while Laurana is only 5'6".

5'8'' seems reasonable for Tika (who was described in the books as being tall.)

5'6" seems a little short for Laurana since she was described in the books as not only tall but also willowy. (To my mind "willowy" suggests being at least 5'10").

Of course the character's game stats frequently seem off from how they are portrayed in the novels. (e.g. Raistlin having a 10 CON and Flint a 7 INT in the game.)

[NRSASD]

Gotta say, I really do enjoy how big of a deal undead are in Dragonlance. Maybe it's because the two longest running campaigns I've been a part of were set in a zombie apocalypse and Ravenloft respectively, but undead don't get the respect they're probably due.

Additionally, I do like how Kith-Kanan handed off the sword. As a DM, I always struggle to find a satisfying way to let good players loot tombs, and having the original owner surreptitiously hand off a sword is pretty clever.

[pendell]

Armor that is too large could be worn, albeit somewhat uncomfortably. Armor that is too small really cant, the same way you cant wear a shoe that is too small.

From the art, though, I wonder how Tika found a smith to beat out a sort of metal bra for her.

I'm given to understand that such a thing is impractical in real armor -- armor is supposed to cause blades to glance off, and those protrusions will guide a blade to the heart. Better to simply have a bigger plate that doesn't need to be beat out here and here.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Keltest]

From the art, though, I wonder how Tika found a smith to beat out a sort of metal bra for her.

I'm given to understand that such a thing is impractical in real armor -- armor is supposed to cause blades to glance off, and those protrusions will guide a blade to the heart. Better to simply have a bigger plate that doesn't need to be beat out here and here.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I felt the boob discs really didn't need any elaboration on why theyre horrible. I'd like to think that society, or at least nerd culture, has moved past the point where people unironically think that metal bikinis are in any way acceptable as serious armor.

[zimmerwald1915]

I felt the boob discs really didn't need any elaboration on why theyre horrible. I'd like to think that society, or at least nerd culture, has moved past the point where people unironically think that metal bikinis are in any way acceptable as serious armor.

I find the suggestion that nerd culture is ahead of the whole society on this issue to be entirely spurious. If anything, nerds are the ones most likely to be up in arms about how the wider society is forcing change upon things they like and have always judged to be tolerable if not outright good. See, e.g., genderbending comic book characters.

[Keltest]

I find the suggestion that nerd culture is ahead of the whole society on this issue to be entirely spurious. If anything, nerds are the ones most likely to be up in arms about how the wider society is forcing change upon things they like and have always judged to be tolerable if not outright good. See, e.g., genderbending comic book characters.

Hence the clarification about serious armor. If people want to draw eye candy, theyre going to draw eye candy, and I don't think its specifically a problem that people do that. Its just when people confuse that stuff for what something should actually look like that's the problem, and I haven't seen that happen nearly as much in the past decade as compared to, say, art from the '80s.

Admittedly, I don't exactly go hunting for it either.

[bguy]

Gotta say, I really do enjoy how big of a deal undead are in Dragonlance. Maybe it's because the two longest running campaigns I've been a part of were set in a zombie apocalypse and Ravenloft respectively, but undead don't get the respect they're probably due.

It seems kind of off though that elves with their love and nature and the sanctity of life are using undead to guard the tomb of their king.

[Keltest]

It seems kind of off though that elves with their love and nature and the sanctity of life are using undead to guard the tomb of their king.

It was never entirely clear to me if it was something the elves deliberately set up to happen, or if it was just an accident that came about through their extreme reverence and loyalty to Kith-Kanan. Undead don't seem sufficiently common to assume that crypt + loyalty makes undead, or that the elves at the time would have understood that, but at the same time it seems almost too deliberate for me to say they didn't at least suspect what would happen.

[pendell]

I think it's pretty deliberate. We encountered spectral minions very similar to this in Darken Wood -- and, for that matter, in Tolkien's Paths of the Dead.

In Dragonlance, an oath lasts beyond death.

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Also, we've got an encounter showing up pretty soon in which elvish wizards turned a convicted criminal into a banshee and bound her to protect the king's treasure forever. So clearly the white-robed elvish magic-users have a different view of the questions than is common among good wizards in other fantasy worlds.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[NRSASD]

@Pendell

Spoiler: Spoilers for Future Stuff

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A. At least the ancient elven wizards of Kith Kanan's time thought differently
B. Whoever said white-robed wizards were involved? Or that Kith Kanan was a good guy? He won the Kinslayer wars and created the elven subgroups. No one ever said he was nice.

[zimmerwald1915]

@Pendell

Spoiler: Spoilers for Future Stuff

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A. At least the ancient elven wizards of Kith Kanan's time thought differently
B. Whoever said white-robed wizards were involved? Or that Kith Kanan was a good guy? He won the Kinslayer wars and created the elven subgroups. No one ever said he was nice.

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Isn't it stated somewhere that all the elven wizards wore the white robes?

Not that that means much. Good alignment in Dragonlance doesn't say anything about beliefs or behavior.

[Aeson]

I'm given to understand that such a thing is impractical in real armor -- armor is supposed to cause blades to glance off, and those protrusions will guide a blade to the heart. Better to simply have a bigger plate that doesn't need to be beat out here and here.

'Boob plate' probably isn't particularly less practical than for example a similarly-exaggerated muscle cuirass or codpiece, and both of the latter show up in historical armor.

[Liquor Box]

'Boob plate' probably isn't particularly less practical than for example a similarly-exaggerated muscle cuirass or codpiece, and both of the latter show up in historical armor.

Fair point. Th muscled cuirass was largely ceremonial not practical, but the same could be true of boobplate armour (or metal bikinis or whatever) in dragonlance.

The elves did say they'd have trouble finding armour to fit Tika, and ended up giving armour belonging to the (now dead) queen. Perhaps there was no practical armour, so she had to take the queen's ceremonial armour.

Edit: That also fits with the helmet being horned.