Polymorph without level

[Climowitz]

Hello everyone. Im currently doing a new spell system in which every spell had no level and depending on the level slot used to cast it the effects. Usually variables tend to be affected by spell level. However I found myself stuck with this spell, polymorph / shapechange.

What I want: I would like to make this spell a change of creature and full form, and not be mixed with alter self and a change of looks. I'm finding it hard to see how to make it useful but not broken at lower levels. So i ask for help. The less text the spell needs the better and feel free to be creative. My first thought was to adapt pf version and its derivated spells elemental body, etc.

What do you guys think. Can you help me figure this?

[Unavenger]

Base the maximum CR of the thing you can turn into on the spell slot used?

[jjordan]

Base the maximum CR of the thing you can turn into on the spell slot used?

I like that. Simple.

[JNAProductions]

I'd insert a joke here about how monsters have no base CR and instead are just modified based on what CR you assign to them, except that actually sounds like a cool idea.

[nickl_2000]

Base the maximum CR of the thing you can turn into on the spell slot used?

The only possible issue I see with this is casting against opponents. Getting a single save spell that basically destroys one opponents combat effectiveness until they are hit at level 1 is pretty darn powerful.

[Unavenger]

The only possible issue I see with this is casting against opponents. Getting a single save spell that basically destroys one opponents combat effectiveness until they are hit at level 1 is pretty darn powerful.

Well, for starters, sleep and color spray have historically done that in an area. Second off, you can alter the spell's functionality against unwilling targets, so that it can only reduce their CR by a certain amount (or plain doesn't do the same thing at all). Finally, in 5e-style polymorphing, polymorphing is always a benefit, because you get the new creature's HP on top of your own and when it runs out, you return to your normal form, and in 3.5 polymorph is willing creatures only.

[Climowitz]

Yes basing the spell on HD was an instant thought. 2 HD * spell level maximum HD feels good as a self spell. Perhaps make two different one offensive to use against enemies and one for self.

However do you think that casted as a 1st level and be able to change so easily is too powerful? At which level should one get the form attributes, ex abilities, qualities or su abilities?

[theVoidWatches]

I think one of the things to note here is that there are actually three things that make polymorph powerful.

First is turning enemies into low CR creatures to bench them for a while, or insta-kill with spells like Disintegrate - this can easily be addressed by limiting its use it non-willing creatures until higher spell level. On the other hand, without those spells it's really no different from something like Sleep - either way, you're removing your target from the battle until they're hit.

Second is turning allies into powerful creatures, like dinosaurs. This can be addressed by having its target be limited to a max CR equal to level.

Third is turning allies into creatures that have abilities which solve puzzles. For example, being a spider trivializes climbing or stealth challenges. This isn't as easy to fix - you can limit particular abilities to higher spell levels, but that will get complicated and annoying. It would be easier to fix by limiting the duration. If it was 1 minute at low levels, that makes it pretty much combat-only, and this lets it scale up to permanent at 9th level.

[Climowitz]

I think one of the things to note here is that there are actually three things that make polymorph powerful.

First is turning enemies into low CR creatures to bench them for a while, or insta-kill with spells like Disintegrate - this can easily be addressed by limiting its use it non-willing creatures until higher spell level. On the other hand, without those spells it's really no different from something like Sleep - either way, you're removing your target from the battle until they're hit.

Second is turning allies into powerful creatures, like dinosaurs. This can be addressed by having its target be limited to a max CR equal to level.

Third is turning allies into creatures that have abilities which solve puzzles. For example, being a spider trivializes climbing or stealth challenges. This isn't as easy to fix - you can limit particular abilities to higher spell levels, but that will get complicated and annoying. It would be easier to fix by limiting the duration. If it was 1 minute at low levels, that makes it pretty much combat-only, and this lets it scale up to permanent at 9th level.

Okay this is really helpful. I'm actually removing big duration spells so it would go caster level rounds probably. And since wild shape should cover an specialization in morphing I think this ok.

So at what levels should the spell be enhanced?
And what about stats and life. Should the objective get the new stats?