Origins of Purple Quiddity?

[martianmister]

what if purple was the dark ones favourite colour?

What if it was his least favourite colour? What a terrible thought.

[Fyraltari]

what if purple was the dark ones favourite colour?

It's his skin colour.

[factotum]

It's his skin colour.

Yeah, I always thought that. OK, one can ask why TDO was born with that skin colour in the first place, being (as far as we've seen) unique in that respect, but if he'd been a regular orange-skinned hobgoblin he'd still have got a unique quiddity, since none of the other four pantheons have orange.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

one can ask why TDO was born with that skin colour in the first place

Son of a goblin and hobgoblin, maybe? Green and orange skin genes resulting in purple?

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

Extreme body modification.

Or random mutation. One of the two.

[Jasdoif]

Extreme body modification.

Or random mutation. One of the two.

Why not both, as in "extremely random body mutation"?

[Draconi Redfir]

my guess is just random mutation. though THEN AGAIN, Thor did say they haven't done natural selection yet, so i'm not sure random mutations really happen.

as much as i lothe to say it, someone might have been behind TDO.

[Jasdoif]

my guess is just random mutation. though THEN AGAIN, Thor did say they haven't done natural selection yet, so i'm not sure random mutations really happen.

The connection between random mutation (of this magnitude) and natural selection is frail at best, so I don't think this is cause to worry.

[Anymage]

Natural selection isn't required for mutations. It just takes a lot of time, something that none of the worlds so far have really had. (And technically, we've seen natural selection happen even within recorded history, when the creatures have short generations and high selective pressure.)

Meanwhile, if TDO was the result of someone meddling, it would be impressive if some god finagled things just right without leaving their fingerprints all over the issue (which would have a high risk of leaving a lot of relevant quiddity around and risk the new godling ascending with an existing pantheon's energy), or else just seeing all those potential worshipers on the table and deciding to take them all for itself. I'm not saying that it's impossible that something had a hand in things, just that it's unlikely for any of the existing power players.

[hroþila]

The connection between random mutation (of this magnitude) and natural selection is frail at best, so I don't think this is cause to worry.

If the OOTS universe works alongside more Lamarckian lines (and given Elan and Nale vis-a-vis their parents, that seems entirely possible), what can we say about the connection between natural selection and extreme body modification?

[RatElemental]

If the OOTS universe works alongside more Lamarckian lines (and given Elan and Nale vis-a-vis their parents, that seems entirely possible), what can we say about the connection between natural selection and extreme body modification?

Can you explain how Elan and Nale have to do with Lamarckian evolution? I'm missing something here and this has piqued my interest.

[martianmister]

Yeah, I always thought that. OK, one can ask why TDO was born with that skin colour in the first place, being (as far as we've seen) unique in that respect, but if he'd been a regular orange-skinned hobgoblin he'd still have got a unique quiddity, since none of the other four pantheons have orange.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...rue-intentions
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...(SoD-spoilers)

Can you explain how Elan and Nale have to do with Lamarckian evolution? I'm missing something here and this has piqued my interest.

Elan and Nale inherited their parents' personalities.

[RatElemental]

Elan and Nale inherited their parents' personalities.

I think that's a case of upbringing. Personalities aren't genetic.

[Jasdoif]

If the OOTS universe works alongside more Lamarckian lines (and given Elan and Nale vis-a-vis their parents, that seems entirely possible), what can we say about the connection between natural selection and extreme body modification?

Is it still "natural selection" if traits result from conscious choices on the part of the parents; or it is artificial selection at that point?

(This is probably more productive than trying to figure out how "If a celestial and a humanoid produce a child, that child is a humanoid with the half-celestial template; while a half-celestial humanoid's descendents are aasimar creatures" is supposed to work.)

Can you explain how Elan and Nale have to do with Lamarckian evolution? I'm missing something here and this has piqued my interest.

Elan and Nale inherited nonphysical traits from both of their parents, despite their family being split early enough for the two of them to not have memories of each other.

[martianmister]

I think that's a case of upbringing. Personalities aren't genetic.

Elan didn't know his father and Nale didn't know his mother, yet they inherited Tarquin's live of drama and their mother's complex planning skills.

[Dion]

Can you explain how Elan and Nale have to do with Lamarckian evolution? I'm missing something here and this has piqued my interest.

Lamarck was the first to imagine a difference in effects between cannabis indica and cannabis sativa.

Elan and Nale are clearly intended to represent sativa and Indica, respectively.

[Squire Doodad]

Yeah, I always thought that. OK, one can ask why TDO was born with that skin colour in the first place, being (as far as we've seen) unique in that respect, but if he'd been a regular orange-skinned hobgoblin he'd still have got a unique quiddity, since none of the other four pantheons have orange.

I mean, his specific color is what looks best with him, in this case his skin color.

If he was a blue Azurblin or something, his quiddity would still be unique due to the circumstances, not his own biology (though his biology partially led to the circumstances).

[Wizard_Lizard]

I never knew TDO was purple. Serves me right for reading the comic in black and white.

[KorvinStarmast]

I never knew TDO was purple. Serves me right for reading the comic in black and white.

As Paul Simon once sang ....
Everything looks worse in black and white.

(The song was Kodachrome, circa 1973-1974)

this version has pictures ....

[Wizard_Lizard]

As Paul Simon once sang ....
Everything looks worse in black and white.

....

True that.

[KorvinStarmast]

True that.

With the exception that, in the hands of a gifted photographer (like Ansel Adams) some black and white photos are awesome.

[Riftwolf]

With the exception that, in the hands of a gifted photographer (like Ansel Adams) some black and white photos are awesome.

Greyscale isn't the same as black and white.
(but I agree Ansel Adams was friggin awesome. Can we talk about awesome photographers? Yknow, as a break from Star Walignmiko?)

[snowblizz]

Greyscale isn't the same as black and white.
(but I agree Ansel Adams was friggin awesome. Can we talk about awesome photographers? Yknow, as a break from Star Walignmiko?)

Only in the context whether a great greyscale photographer could make Miko any thing but a black and white morality character and how that affects the extended Star Wars universe.

[Riftwolf]

Only in the context whether a great greyscale photographer could make Miko any thing but a black and white morality character and how that affects the extended Star Wars universe.

*gives it some thought*
Weegee Fellig could have, but only if the photo was of Jolee Bindo shaking hands with Greedo during a 'truth and reconciliation' summit over who shot first. Miko would have to accept the verdict and move onto the more important moral quandaries involving Balrog Wings. Otherwise, nope I got nothing.

[Wizard_Lizard]

*gives it some thought*
Weegee Fellig could have, but only if the photo was of Jolee Bindo shaking hands with Greedo during a 'truth and reconciliation' summit over who shot first. Miko would have to accept the verdict and move onto the more important moral quandaries involving Balrog Wings. Otherwise, nope I got nothing.

Me neither.

[martianmister]

Only in the context whether a great greyscale photographer could make Miko any thing but a black and white morality character and how that affects the extended Star Wars universe.

Well, Weegee Fellig could have, but only if the photo was of Jolee Bindo shaking hands with Greedo during a "truth and reconciliation" summit over who shot first. Miko would have to accept the verdict and move onto the more important moral quandaries involving Balrog Wings.

[Riftwolf]

Well, Weegee Fellig could have, but only if the photo was of Jolee Bindo shaking hands with Greedo during a "truth and reconciliation" summit over who shot first. Miko would have to accept the verdict and move onto the more important moral quandaries involving Balrog Wings.

*head explodes*

[CriticalFailure]

Interesting point about someone being behind The Dark One.

It seems decently likely that TDO was originally intended to be an antagonist to some other adventuring party, whether as sub boss or BBEG. Especially given the claim that TDO was different from other goblins because he had the elite array and class levels. Maybe somewhere along the line whatever universal force that controls narrative law/campaign plotting/etc in this universe (it's not clear whether it's the gods, some sort of "laws of narrative" embedded into the universe, or something else that drives this stuff) decided that a goblin warlord with the elite array and class levels would be a good boss associated with the generic goblin horde and made him purple for flavor. I guess the implications are slightly different depending on whether some deity thought "this would be a good challenge for adventurers" versus the narrative laws of the universe generating him.

I always sort of assumed that after TDO was given dominion over the goblinoids it opened things up for them to take class levels and have more variety in terms of stats and stuff.

[Squire Doodad]

Interesting point about someone being behind The Dark One.

It seems decently likely that TDO was originally intended to be an antagonist to some other adventuring party, whether as sub boss or BBEG. Especially given the claim that TDO was different from other goblins because he had the elite array and class levels. Maybe somewhere along the line whatever universal force that controls narrative law/campaign plotting/etc in this universe (it's not clear whether it's the gods, some sort of "laws of narrative" embedded into the universe, or something else that drives this stuff) decided that a goblin warlord with the elite array and class levels would be a good boss associated with the generic goblin horde and made him purple for flavor. I guess the implications are slightly different depending on whether some deity thought "this would be a good challenge for adventurers" versus the narrative laws of the universe generating him.

I always sort of assumed that after TDO was given dominion over the goblinoids it opened things up for them to take class levels and have more variety in terms of stats and stuff.

I think TDO was a boss of a minor dungeon, but then survived, wasn't killed, and went ahead and took actions to make change for all goblinoids. He's a hero so powerful that he went ahead, broke free of the narrative, and made it his own.

[CriticalFailure]

I think TDO was a boss of a minor dungeon, but then survived, wasn't killed, and went ahead and took actions to make change for all goblinoids. He's a hero so powerful that he went ahead, broke free of the narrative, and made it his own.

I like this theory a lot and while the details could vary in terms of the original intents for TDO and when he went "off script" I think it fits really well.

I've been wondering if Elan's speech about heroes being able to defy stories will eventually play into parleying with Redcloak and discussing what he and The Dark One are actually trying to do. I've been thinking, Redcloak seems to act as a foil to all of the members of the Order besides Belkar in some specific way. With Elan, in 931 he roughly says "only a special hero can defy stories themselves," and Redcloak + The Dark One are not only defying the gods who created this world but some very basic tropes and narrative laws that they baked into the current world. Changing the station and role of goblinoids is basically the most ambitious, most fundamental, largest scale attempt to defy stories we have seen by far. The overlap with Durkon is probably the most obvious: both are religious and clerics; both are very lawful, worry about doing the wrong thing/not following the rules properly, and have a very strong sense of duty that they have made themselves miserable trying to fulfill (in fact I think you could call both of them Lawful Miserable). With V, I think it's fair to say that they have both done terrible things that they deeply regret. While Redcloak is currently trying to rationalize and tell himself "it will all be worth it, you'll see" I think the story will eventually force him to confront the shame and regret he's using it to suppress at some point. When it comes to Roy, both he and Redcloak have struggled with living up to their responsibilities for others and dealing with how their failures have hurt people. Additionally, for both this is exacerbated by being given a lot of responsibility at too young of an age without sufficient support (Roy being given the responsibility to watch his brother when he was, what 10 or something while his father abdicated responsibility and Redcloak

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simultaneously losing any adults in his life who could help guide him and being made the High Priest of his religion/personally responsible for his god's evil scheme to change the fate of his entire race while still a teenager

). With Haley, both of them suffered negative experiences at a young age

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including seeing their mothers violently killed

and both responded by developing defensively negative view - Haley developed an inability to trust anyone and Redcloak developed distrust and bigotry toward humans.

Obviously as a foil Redcloak represents negative responses to these things compared to the positivity of the Order members. While Elan realizes he can defy stories to stop people from getting hurt, Redcloak is risking the souls of the entire world and even the gods by doing so. While Durkon sacrifices personally and doesn't expect others to do the same, Redcloak harms others and sacrifices his his followers as well as his own well-being for his God's will. While V faced what she did and began to change the aspects of herself that motivated her evil behavior, Redcloak doubled down on rationalizing his actions and continued to do more evil things. While Roy faced his failures while in positions of leadership/responsibility and learned to be better, Redcloak has denied responsibility at most opportunities so that he doesn't have to accept how his failures have hurt people, once again becoming a worse leader and a worse person in order to do so. While Haley has challenged the trust issues she developed as a child and learned to open up to those she cares about and rely on her team members, Redcloak has held onto his bigotry towards humans, further perpetuated a cycle of pointless violence and animosity, and put himself in an environment in which "team" members are constantly manipulating each other while pursuing hidden agendas.

The fact that communicating with Redcloak/TDO is a crucial plot point now makes me wonder if all these overlaps between Redcloak and the PCs will end up being brought up more explicitly/be plot points.