Crown above door at Dwarven council

[Lexible]

Interesting shape. Not all crowns are that shape in the comic.

Same crown as Xykon's formerly Master Fryon's?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Probably a coincidence.

[Caerulea]

I assume that it is a stylised depiction of a crown for asthetic purposes, and has no significance, nor relation to Master Fyron and Xykon.

Edit:

Probably a coincidence.

Certainly a coincidence.

—Caerulea

[Wizard_Lizard]

I assume that it is a stylised depiction of a crown for asthetic purposes, and has no significance, nor relation to Master Fyron and Xykon.

Edit:
Certainly a coincidence.

—Caerulea

You never know....
(except this is almost definetly a coincidence.)

[Lexible]

Certainly a coincidence.

Why certainly?

[Caerulea]

You never know....
(except this is almost definetly a coincidence.)

Perhaps those large figures between a human and dwarf in proportion carved around the council room will come to life and defeat the vampires and help the Nightcrawler achieve his dream of becoming a therapist. Hey, you never know. It could happen.

—Caerulea

[Jasdoif]

Interesting shape. Not all crowns are that shape in the comic.

I'm guessing it's Dvalin's symbol, based on Dvalin's high priest's hat.

Of course, Dvalin's title is "First King of the Dwarves", so the symbol could very well be a stylized representation of his earthly OotS-world-ly crown...and I suppose it's in the realm of possibility that Fyron had a demigod's crown on display at his library.

[Caerulea]

Jasidof is likely correct. Also, they are not the same shape. They are actually pretty different (aside from the fact that they are both stick figure crowns).

Spoiler: Comparison

Show

—Caerulea

[Wizard_Lizard]

Perhaps those large figures between a human and dwarf in proportion carved around the council room will come to life and defeat the vampires and help the Nightcrawler achieve his dream of becoming a therapist. Hey, you never know. It could happen.

—Caerulea

Wow, your guess is so weird. I don't think that it will happen at all...

[Jannoire]

Of course, Dvalin's title is "First King of the Dwarves", so the symbol could very well be a stylized representation of his earthly OotS-world-ly crown...and I suppose it's in the realm of possibility that Fyron had a demigod's crown on display at his library.

Wouldn't the crown of a demigod be somewhat magical? In the battle of Azure City, it's stated that the crown is merely for show and looks and doesn't have any magical properties...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wouldn't the crown of a demigod be somewhat magical?

No?

Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Wouldn't the crown of a demigod be somewhat magical?

Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

Additionally, Dvalin was a mortal monarch before he was a demigod; if Fyron happened to have Dvalin's crown, it would probably have been from his mortal days.

Or maybe soaking up Evil is the result of a somewhat magical property.

Or maybe Fyron has a convincing replica. Or maybe it was disjoined and is no longer magical. Or maybe it's a convincing replica that was disjoined.

[Fyraltari]

No?

Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

Grey Wolf

High-level characters tend to have a whole lot of magic items. Here, take the Example of Rassilon. And it would make sense to have, say Charisma enhancement, on a crown.

Also the mere fact of having belong to a god may make it a relic and therefore inherently magical even if that god was a mortal, like how in Oblivion, acquiring blood on the armor of the mortal* Tiber Septim counts as having the blood of the god Talos for spell-casting purposes.

Then again I don’t think these are the same crown.

*Although as possibly a Dragonborn and a Shezzarine Tibet Septim is possibly not the best example of a mortal.

[hroþila]

I don't think anyone's arguing that Dvalin's crown couldn't be magical, though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

High-level characters tend to have a whole lot of magic items. Here, take the Example of Rassilon. And it would make sense to have, say Charisma enhancement, on a crown.

"Would make sense" is not the same as "the crown of a demigod [would] be somewhat magical".

Also, I'm not sure it is a given that Dvalin was high-level in life. High level is not trivially attained in OotS, and his ascension to demigod status does not seem to have been predicated on its level, but on the belief in him by other dwarves, which is compatible a high level, but hardly requires it.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

"Would make sense" is not the same as "the crown of a demigod [would] be somewhat magical".

Also, I'm not sure it is a given that Dvalin was high-level in life. High level is not trivially attained in OotS, and his ascension to demigod status does not seem to have been predicated on its level, but on the belief in him by other dwarves, which is compatible a high level, but hardly requires it.

Grey Wolf

To ascend to godhood one needs to be an exceptional individual who has things impressive enough that both a whole lot of people see them as a divine figure and gods take notice and sponsor their ascension, which in a D&D-based world would require high-level, no?

[Lexible]

Jasidof is likely correct. Also, they are not the same shape. They are actually pretty different (aside from the fact that they are both stick figure crowns).

Spoiler: Comparison

Show

—Caerulea

Fair enough! I am sold by your and Jasdoi's argument.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

High level perhaps but easily just high level in an NPC class (aristocrat, in this case) which does not imply many magic items

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To ascend to godhood one needs to be an exceptional individual who has things impressive enough that both a whole lot of people see them as a divine figure and gods take notice and sponsor their ascension, which in a D&D-based world would require high-level, no?

No, not really. We have no idea how he became King of the Dwarves, but a guy who refuses to make decisions without hearing from everyone else is not necessarily going to be out hunting for monsters to level up. Dvalin was a paragon of (a) virtue amongst dwarves, it seems, which means parents everywhere were telling them "be more like King Dvalin" to dwarven children everywhere. Dwarves believed in what Dvalin represented, to the point he became a god (with the help of the Northern pantheon). But none of that requires him to be anything other than a level 1 commoner. Sure, it is likely that politics gave him a few levels of whatever class Shojo had, but I fail to see how those in any way altered or facilitated his deification. I honestly believe they are unrelated.

(tDO, OTOH, was a warlord and fought many actual battles, so his fame was connected to the actions that gave him XP. I just don't see that Dvalin followed that path)

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

No, not really. We have no idea how he became King of the Dwarves, but a guy who refuses to make decisions without hearing from everyone else is not necessarily going to be out hunting for monsters to level up.

Dvalin refuses to disobey an oath, that’s not the same thing. A reasonable oath at the time it was made too.

Dvalin was a paragon of (a) virtue amongst dwarves, it seems, which means parents everywhere were telling them "be more like King Dvalin" to dwarven children everywhere. Dwarves believed in what Dvalin represented, to the point he became a god (with the help of the Northern pantheon). But none of that requires him to be anything other than a level 1 commoner. Sure, it is likely that politics gave him a few levels of whatever class Shojo had, but I fail to see how those in any way altered or facilitated his deification. I honestly believe they are unrelated.

Parangons of virtue that don’t do squat aren’t held as example of anything. They are forgotten because people don’t know about them.

(tDO, OTOH, was a warlord and fought many actual battles, so his fame was connected to the actions that gave him XP. I just don't see that Dvalin followed that path)

Grey Wolf

Dvalin was the First King of the dwarves. He didn’t inherit the position. You do not found a line by not being a badass.

[hroþila]

There's lots of hermits, visionaries and the like that were practically worshipped in the real world despite not doing anything that would require a high level. We know ascension requires mass worship and belief, nothing more. Sure, being able to draw notice to yourself by conquering whole worlds by yourself before breakfast probably makes things easier, but that doesn't mean it's a requirement.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Dvalin refuses to disobey an oath, that’s not the same thing. A reasonable oath at the time it was made too.

Yes, but not one that gives XP. Not sure what you are implying here - I have nothing against Dvalin.

Parangons of virtue that don’t do squat aren’t held as example of anything. They are forgotten because people don’t know about them.

Dvalin ruled by consensus, and was by all accounts Lawful to a fault. Neither of those things require him to gain levels, and his devotion to upholding the dwarven ideals of honour, even when that means doing nothing, might have been enough to be remembered. Also, what hrothila says above.

Dvalin was the First King of the dwarves. He didn’t inherit the position. You do not found a line by not being a badass.

Yes, yes you do. You can most definitely found a line by sitting all house heads at a table, making a bunch of promises for their support and then ruling justly from then on. Since Dvalin did, at the very least, the middle step of those three, the alternative proposal that he gained the throne via massively parallel murder seems highly suspect.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Dvalin was the First King of the dwarves. He didn’t inherit the position. You do not found a line by not being a badass.

Yes, yes you do. You can most definitely found a line by sitting all house heads at a table, making a bunch of promises for their support and then ruling justly from then on. Since Dvalin did, at the very least, the middle step of those three, the alternative proposal that he gained the throne via massively parallel murder seems highly suspect.

Alternatively...if Dvalin was some sort of legendary conqueror before the dwarves had a king, in all likelihood he'd have had preferred headgear well before having need of a crown; and further enhancements would be much more sensibly placed on the already enchanted headgear rather than the crown.

Or both: If Dvalin gathered the clan heads to get their support for overthrowing a particular despot, having a fancy-looking-but-not-functional crown could symbolically reflect the "obey the will of the Council" oath that ultimately garnered the backing for establishing a monarchy.


And since we're deep in conjectural-and-incidental territory already, there are certainly other possibilities (besides the obvious and boring "the crown has nothing to do with Dvalin") with varying degrees of outlandishness: things like "Dvalin had multiple crowns over his lifetime", "the crown was disjoined around the time a parliament replaced the Council as the dwarven government", "Xykon doesn't know the crown is magical", etc.

[Dion]

No?

Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, but let’s be honest. Suppose you were playing in campaign where you retrieved the artifact called “The Crown of Dvalin” from the head of an epic level lich.

If your DM said, “no, really, it doesn’t do anything but sit on your head”, would you be epically disappointed? I know I would.

Since the canonical rule of every D&D world is “don’t disappoint the players”, it must logically follow that Xykon’s crown is *not* “The Crown of Dvalin”, the ancient dwarven artifact worn by the first king and god of the dwarves.

[Dion]

There's lots of hermits, visionaries and the like that were practically worshipped in the real world despite not doing anything that would require a high level.

True. Because it’s D&D, most rulers generally have some levels beyond 1st level commoner, so they don’t die in a random encounter with a house cat.

But Dvalin could certainly be a lot more like Shojo (with a handful of aristocrat levels), and nothing like Tarquin (with epic adventurer levels)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, but let’s be honest. Suppose you were playing in campaign where you retrieved the artifact called “The Crown of Dvalin” from the head of an epic level lich.

If your DM said, “no, really, it doesn’t do anything but sit on your head”, would you be epically disappointed? I know I would.

I wouldn't. It was extremelly common to be given as reward non-magical stuff made of gold that we'd then flog to buy ourself the magic items. Sure, at low levels it was all copper and gold coins, but by level 10, it was "garnets" and "diamonds" and "inlaid scepters" and the like. Good thing too, since gold coins were heavy. "The non-magical Crown of Dvalin" sounds like something we could sell for far more than its weight in gold, saving us precious weight capacity. Possibly get a nice dwarven runed weapon as a subquest for recovering it.

Since the canonical rule of every D&D world is “don’t disappoint the players”, it must logically follow that Xykon’s crown is *not* “The Crown of Dvalin”, the ancient dwarven artifact worn by the first king and god of the dwarves.

No, that doesn't necessarily follow.

But Dvalin could certainly be a lot more like Shojo, with a handful of aristocrat levels, and a lot less like Tarquin, with epic level arrow snatching feats.

Tarquin was also not the head of state.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not the official one, at least. De Facto, I'm pretty sure he is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not the official one, at least. De Facto, I'm pretty sure he is.

Well, he is now that his handler is re-dead. Before Malack croaked, though, I suspect he was the actual brains behind everyday workings of the Empire.

Still, my point remains that a conquerer has a means to gain XP, while a conciliator ruler does not.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I wouldn't. It was extremelly common to be given as reward non-magical stuff made of gold that we'd then flog to buy ourself the magic items. Sure, at low levels it was all copper and gold coins, but by level 10, it was "garnets" and "diamonds" and "inlaid scepters" and the like. Good thing too, since gold coins were heavy. "The non-magical Crown of Dvalin" sounds like something we could sell for far more than its weight in gold, saving us precious weight capacity. Possibly get a nice dwarven runed weapon as a subquest for recovering it.

Or a nice sidequest/subplot of the Dwarven nation wishing to reclaim one of its historical artifacts, and putting bounties on the party's heads.

[Kish]

No, that doesn't necessarily follow.

That's also...a goofy "canonical rule" to claim. Particularly, as it apparently is here, taken to the point of "if the players make an assumption such that they'll be disappointed if they learn that assumption is wrong, you're obligated to throw out whatever you were planning that conflicts with that assumption and make it official."