Making Treasure Count

[DanDare2050]

I unintentionally necroed this thread : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...g-system-of-5E!

Its main thrust is that in D&D 5e treasure isn't worth anything. The argument has some merit and if you agree then this thread is about how to change that in neat ways. If you don't agree then go argue over in that thread.

Obviously there are upkeep costs, not just during down time but during adventure time. Keep on the players about those. In my open table there are life events that attach to the life style you lead. They give more beneficial events to high life styles and bad, lossy events for poor and wretched lifestyle.

One thing already mentioned is giving magic items sane costs (if you allow magic items to be sold, and if you do you probably want to limit what is available where, but that's a different discussion).

I have mentioned elsewhere a mechanism we use in my open table. XP gained is "raw" and can't be used to level up until its converted to "trained". Each day 5 x character level is converted automatically by a long rest (or equivalent). Spending a whole day training as down time converts more. You spend up to 50gp and convert your character level x gp spent.

One I don't use in my open table, but often use in my dedicated games, is art and gem collections. Collections are sets of at least 3 things, art works by the same artists, gems of the same type and quality etc. A character can attune to a set and keep it, possibly on display, and then after a long rest they gain extra conversion - 1 x character level per 100gp value of the set. If an attuned set, or an element of it, is stolen or destroyed then the character is no longer attuned to it. This system leads to some extra role play about guarding your non cash treasures and going in search of missing set items. I also have "legendary collectables" which are single, magnificent works or gems that may be treated as a complete set containing 1 item (e.g. The Arkenstone from The Hobbit).

Another that I find useful is combat equipment maintenance. In reality characters would be caring for their stuff, cleaning it, sharpening blades, repairing chips and cracks, despite which it will occasionally break or become useless, and then they replace it. But I know none of my players want to track this with some realistic logistics process, so instead I get them to pay a daily upkeep that represents that process. Simple Melee weapons: 1cp / day, simple ranged weapons: 2cp / day, martial melee weapons: 5cp / day, martial ranged weapons: 6cp/day. Armor: 1cp / armour class value / day (so shields are 2cp/day). This is spent at the beginning of each day. During combat, if a 1 is rolled by the character, or the character takes a critical hit, then one item that has not been maintained that day is ruined and can no longer be used. If everything is properly maintained then no problem. A recently purchased is still paid for even though its brand new. If it breaks early that just means you were sold a lemon (and I don't want players keeping track of how long they have owned something). Exception: magic weapons and armour need no maintenance and do not break in this way. This makes magical stuff somewhat more valuable to players.

There is a lot more on the expenses side that can be added without too much book keeping, before getting to big picture stuff like buying strongholds and hiring small armies, and you can also do as suggested in the previous thread and downgrade the treasure hand outs too.

What other ideas do people have?

[Sigreid]

Our group tends to spend a lot of money on influence. Carousing, donating to the town's upkeep and improvement, building churches and shrines, etc. all gets pretty expensive but is the first step in being regarded by the locals as the real people who deserve loyalty.

As far as personal upkeep goes, that's supposed to be included in the daily lifestyle cost.

[Tiadoppler]

Something I've found useful is to apply a 'real currency value' to gold pieces so I can quickly estimate prices of things that people want. Generally, I use the simple:

1 pp = $1000
1 gp = $100
1 sp = $10
1 cp = $1

I dislike bookkeeping, especially getting down to copper-pieces-per-day level of detail, and assume that they're spending the time and effort to maintain their equipment as a part of their greater living expenses. Instead, I put them in situations where they're tempted to spend large chunks of money on plot-relevant things: hiring a mercenary army to protect a city from a siege, purchasing a sailing ship and hiring a crew, building a fortified base, investing in a guild, or creating custom enchantments.

A player character might amass millions of gp over the course of a long career. If I equate that to hundreds of millions of dollars, I want to focus on the big ticket items. I don't care that they're spending 4sp per day on wagon axle grease: by level 12-15 they are the uber-wealthy of their campaign setting. They don't have to buy clothes when they can hire a personal tailor. I'd rather work in the scale of thousands of gp than get bogged down in minutiae.

So, these characters have to choose what they do with that wealth. Do they donate it to a school or charity? Spend it all on fast sailing ships? Shove it into a hidden vault? Put it in a bank? Invest it? Retire? Do thieves try to take their money? Are their loved ones kidnapped for the ransom money? Do they have to deal with an endless string of beggars and hangers-on?


I'd rather embrace those plot options than try to fight against my players' success. Sometimes it's fun for a party to have to count pennies and barely make enough money to get by, but that should be limited to low level parties for the most part. By fifth level, a PC should be able to make a comfortable living. By tenth they shouldn't have to worry about the cost of bread.


Disclaimer: That said, I usually don't give out quite as much gold as some DMs, and I also make magical items a bit rarer and more expensive. I think the most that one of my players has ever had at a time was 500,000gp (for a few fleeting hours).

[Lyracian]

weapons: 1cp / day, simple ranged weapons: 2cp / day, martial melee weapons: 5cp / day, martial ranged weapons: 6cp/day. Armor: 1cp / armour class value / day (so shields are 2cp/day). This is spent at the beginning of each day.
Exception: magic weapons and armour need no maintenance and do not break in this way. This makes magical stuff somewhat more valuable to players.

That is a lot of bookkeeping and just seems to make martial classes worse. Fighter spends 3sp a day to keep his gear functional and Wizard spends nothing!

I have one GM who gives us a flat fee for maintenance after an adventure based on what we have done. Underwater caves or sewers has a higher cost that a wilderness jaunt. The whole party pay the same.

As for Raw vs Training I would just give out less Gold.

I give my players about one permanent magic item each adventure and a few hundred gold at most (unless they are getting a Dragons horde).

Game economy tends to exist just for the players. Once you have all the plate armour you want there’s not much to spend cash on unless you give them something to spend it on.

[Unoriginal]

I'll reiterate: there is nothing "sane" about those magic item costs.

Trying to put a 3.X-like list of costs and prices in the 5e caveat is ignoring the major differences between the two systems, notably on the role of magic items and how they work in this edition.

On the greater point of making treasure matters, it is, like many DM things, a question of presentation: if the players aren't intrested in gold for spending it on the common things rich people do (living like kings, having best quality items, having a great home, etc), either give them something they'd find interesting to spend it on, or figure out a different kind of treasure/reward they'd like.

But that kind of things vary widely from players to players.

[DanDare2050]

That is a lot of bookkeeping and just seems to make martial classes worse.

Not really, as you note it comes down to x amount / day constant. A week of adventuring is 7 times that and players can just go in 1 week chunks if they like.

Fighter spends 3sp a day to keep his gear functional and Wizard spends nothing!

I don't have any wizards with no armour and no weapons at all. Anyway, the group shares costs.

As for Raw vs Training I would just give out less Gold.

The players, that have been doing this for 2 years now, like it. It gives them a decision point - spend the gold to speed up levelling, buy that item, save for a property, spend on political influence, or save vs upkeep. Giving them less gold doesn't give them a decision point. It should be noted though that we synchronise game time and real world time. So if it takes a month to level up without gold use in game time, it takes a real world month to level up. You would be amazed at how much the players get into things like the crafting rules and trying to plan when things happen. One player spent 3 months getting dwarves to craft a diamond tiara for a dragon as part of a political process. That dragon now wears the tiara about a lot and the players are very invested in their role with that.

[Darkstar952]

Another that I find useful is combat equipment maintenance. In reality characters would be caring for their stuff, cleaning it, sharpening blades, repairing chips and cracks, despite which it will occasionally break or become useless, and then they replace it. But I know none of my players want to track this with some realistic logistics process, so instead I get them to pay a daily upkeep that represents that process. Simple Melee weapons: 1cp / day, simple ranged weapons: 2cp / day, martial melee weapons: 5cp / day, martial ranged weapons: 6cp/day. Armor: 1cp / armour class value / day (so shields are 2cp/day). This is spent at the beginning of each day. During combat, if a 1 is rolled by the character, or the character takes a critical hit, then one item that has not been maintained that day is ruined and can no longer be used. If everything is properly maintained then no problem. A recently purchased is still paid for even though its brand new. If it breaks early that just means you were sold a lemon (and I don't want players keeping track of how long they have owned something). Exception: magic weapons and armour need no maintenance and do not break in this way. This makes magical stuff somewhat more valuable to players.

This is adding an exceptional amount of complexity and bookeeping to the very streamlined system that is 5e, and all of these maintenance costs will simply be bypassed with the mending cantrip meaning it achieves nothing.

[Nhorianscum]

Consumables and difficulty.

My take on the economy of 5e has been to run Xanathars rules/ DMG hoard loot rules for aquiring permanent magic items making the process of attaining these difficult, random, and slow but comparatively cheap.

On the other hand I make consumable items such as scrolls, potions, and such quick, easy, and expensive to aquire with cold hard coin. (50 gp for a 1st level spell, 25 to make adds up fast. Scaleing this to rarity/spell level and we have an effective coin sink)

Then I just set the difficulty to deadly-lethal and watch the PC's scamper to burn through 4-5 times their expected WBL (IE selling off every item in the goblin cave of a modified LMOP to buy items they used to just barely clear redbrand hideout).

This also solves the martial vs caster utility issue to some degree (not a perfect fix by any means) and makes for rocket tag combat that rarely lasts longer than 3 rounds and never goes past 5 after critter heuristics and item use.

It's not perfect but it's what I've got.

[Talyn]

Here is something that we did for one of my campaigns:

Don't grant XP for combat. Period. Instead, XP is granted ONLY for completing quests (story rewards).

However, players can ALSO 'buy' XP with gold during their down time. If you spend your gold on basically anything that doesn't go on your character sheet (so, carousing, tithing, investing in NPC institutions, generic magical research, etc.) you can swap gold for XP on a 1-for-1 basis.

I find that is makes treasure valuable, even at higher levels, AND dramatically changes the player's decision-making process. It gives it a more old-school feel, where sneaking past, avoiding, or tricking the monsters is as much a part of the game as defeating them.