Thicket of Blades = Infinite AoO

[A_Gray_Phantom]

I have a party member playing a crusader. I've never seen a crusader before, but it's been really fun and interesting having him in the party.

There's this one "stance" he has that has rocked a couple encounters called "Thicket of Blades." The way it reads implies he gets an infinite number of attacks of opportunity:

Thicket of Blades
(Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, p. 61)

Devoted Spirit (Stance)
Level: Crusader 3 (One Devoted Spirit maneuver),
Components:
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: stance

You maintain a careful guard as you search for any gaps in your opponent’s awareness. Even the slightest move provokes a stinging counter from you.

While you are in this stance, any opponent you threaten that takes any sort of movement, including a 5-foot step, provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Your foes provoke this attack before leaving the area you threaten. Your opponents also cannot use the withdraw action (PH 143) to treat the square they start in as no longer threatened by you.

Even a simple 5-foot step provokes an AoO. The first time he used this he killed 4 enemies, and it wasn't even his turn. He's using a glaive, so that gives him a darn good reach, and the mage in our party likes to enlarge him, thus extending his reach even more.

Guy becomes a blender. Anything that twitches near him instantly dies.

There doesn't seem to be any limit to this. I'm trying to figure out a way to counter this, but I don't quite understand how stances operate.

From what I've been told, stances are extraordinary, which would mean they aren't countered by anti-magic.

I'm also told that duration: stance means it lasts so long as he doesn't move.


I'm planning on deploying more enemies that use ranged attacks, and enemy mages that cast blindness. He doesn't have blindfight, so surely he can't get an AoO on someone he can't see.

[Mike Miller]

Arguably tumble. Invisibility. Glitterdust. Sunder. Enemies with good AC. Enemies with better HP than whatever you have been using. Enemies smart enough not to die after multiple allies died just moving around near him. Fighting his party instead of him so he has to move up to enemies instead of the other way around.

As you said, ranged attacks. However, you should keep in mind not to negate his build. It is fun to feel useful and powerful as a PC so let thicket of blades do it's job at least some of the time.

You have the right idea about stances. Once you have a better understanding of initiators, they won't appear as intimidating as they may now.

[ManicOppressive]

Thicket of Blades is an amazing stance, arguably the best stance in the game (factoring in availability and utility across levels) as it does indeed allow you to perform an AoO for basically any reason. (The joke at my table is that asking if an action provokes AoO from Thicket provokes AoO from Thicket.)

However, it does not circumvent normal limitations on the number of Attacks of Opportunity you may make or may make against a single target in a round. Assuming the Crusader has Combat Reflexes (because it's required for the build) he is still limited to his DEX mod # of attacks of opportunity per round. Moreover, each target may still only ever provoke one Attack of Opportunity per round, whether or not that Attack lands. (Though if you choose not to take an AoO against a target, you can choose to take one if it is provoked again in the same round.)

If he doesn't have Combat Reflexes he can only AoO once per round.

However you actually have a mistaken limitation on the stance as well: Thicket of Blades (like all other stances with one school exception) does not end when the character moves. It doesn't end at all, unless the character chooses to switch or end stance. (The one school exception is Stone Dragon--the stances still don't end, but they do prevent movement. It's a bad school and not relevant here.)

Your party member has indeed found an extremely effective build. Bear in mind that you're seeing the results of two builds though, as you mention there's also a Wizard buffing him further.

Countering it as a DM is pretty easy. Throw more enemies than their DEX mod, or just enemies who can survive an AoO or never get in range in the first place. Anti-magic won't do anything but good old magic will--Thicket of Blades, meet Hold Person, Mirror Image, Blindness, etc, etc. If you have a major enemy in a fight, screen them behind a dozen minions and two or three Crusaders who, themselves, have Thicket of Blades, so that he can't just go be a blender wherever he wants.

But do definitely avoid just straight up neutering him. The party seems to be doing a good strategy well--they should be winning even-CR fights easily with these builds. Don't punish them for it, reward them with tougher and more rewarding enemies.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

Thanks for all the suggestions, Mike. Those are all really good.

And yeah, I do try to make my players feel powerful. I always ask what they want, and try to make it happen. I once had a player tell me he wanted to use greater cleavage. I threw a bunch of kobolds at him in the first game. He was delighted.

Maybe some ninjas would be cool, or invisible stalkers...

[Troacctid]

"Infinite" is a strong word. Does he have the epic feat Improved Combat Reflexes? No? Then he's limited to his normal opportunity attacks in a round. That's three, maybe four a round, if he has Combat Reflexes—and remember, only one attack per opportunity, so a single action from an enemy doesn't let you unload all your AoOs at once.

[MisterKaws]

I'm also told that duration: stance means it lasts so long as he doesn't move.

There are quite a few stances that are made for movement, and have that duration, so this is incorrect.

This is the correct ruling:

You initiate a stance as a swift action. A stance remains in effect indefinitely and is not expended. You enjoy the benefit your stance confers until you change to another stance you know as a swift action. You can remain in a stance outside of combat situations, and you can enjoy its benefit while exploring or traveling.

So it's basically duration: until you're unconscious.

[Mike Miller]

Thanks for all the suggestions, Mike. Those are all really good.

And yeah, I do try to make my players feel powerful. I always ask what they want, and try to make it happen. I once had a player tell me he wanted to use greater cleavage. I threw a bunch of kobolds at him in the first game. He was delighted.

Maybe some ninjas would be cool, or invisible stalkers...

I expected you to end that thought in a completely different way. As a DM, the most fun I have is by coming up with things the PCs don't expect. After all, they always come up with things I don't expect...

[A_Gray_Phantom]

Thicket of Blades is an amazing stance, arguably the best stance in the game (factoring in availability and utility across levels) as it does indeed allow you to perform an AoO for basically any reason. (The joke at my table is that asking if an action provokes AoO from Thicket provokes AoO from Thicket.)

Ha! That's a good one. I'll have to mention that at our next game.

However, it does not circumvent normal limitations on the number of Attacks of Opportunity you may make or may make against a single target in a round. Assuming the Crusader has Combat Reflexes (because it's required for the build) he is still limited to his DEX mod # of attacks of opportunity per round. Moreover, each target may still only ever provoke one Attack of Opportunity per round, whether or not that Attack lands. (Though if you choose not to take an AoO against a target, you can choose to take one if it is provoked again in the same round.)

If he doesn't have Combat Reflexes he can only AoO once per round.

This is the number one thing we were all wondering. None of us, not even him, understood what the upper limits of ToB was. So thank you.

Your party member has indeed found an extremely effective build. Bear in mind that you're seeing the results of two builds though, as you mention there's also a Wizard buffing him further.

Countering it as a DM is pretty easy. Throw more enemies than their DEX mod, or just enemies who can survive an AoO or never get in range in the first place. Anti-magic won't do anything but good old magic will--Thicket of Blades, meet Hold Person, Mirror Image, Blindness, etc, etc. If you have a major enemy in a fight, screen them behind a dozen minions and two or three Crusaders who, themselves, have Thicket of Blades, so that he can't just go be a blender wherever he wants.

But do definitely avoid just straight up neutering him. The party seems to be doing a good strategy well--they should be winning even-CR fights easily with these builds. Don't punish them for it, reward them with tougher and more rewarding enemies.

I'd never want to neuter a player. Nothing sucks the fun out of a game faster than having your abilities become useless. (And the point of a game is to have fun.)

I'm actually delighted to see our sorceress and our crusader working together so well, even if it makes encounters very easy. I'm just worried that they won't have fun if I can't give them a good challenge. Up until Norin (our crusader of chaos) learned ToB, I've been able to knock their HP down near zero, without actually killing anyone. Now I'm being challenged to change my playstyle if I want to keep up. (Which I'm delighted to do.)

[tyckspoon]

Moreover, each target may still only ever provoke one Attack of Opportunity per round, whether or not that Attack lands. (Though if you choose not to take an AoO against a target, you can choose to take one if it is provoked again in the same round.)

Not true - if your opponents do multiple things that provoke, you can attack them for each provoking action. Movement just happens to have a specific clause that moving multiple squares within a threatened area only counts for one opportunity. (I don't think Thicket of Blades over-rules this, but I can see an argument for saying it does. Its main benefit is preventing enemies from trying to maneuver around you with assorted 'this kind of movement doesn't provoke' clauses.)

[A_Gray_Phantom]

I expected you to end that thought in a completely different way. As a DM, the most fun I have is by coming up with things the PCs don't expect. After all, they always come up with things I don't expect...

Oh my gosh, this party is the MOST chaotic party I've ever seen. They never cease to amaze me. Norin (the crusader) is the living embodiment of chaos.

Things they've done:

• Attempted to negotiate with an army of 100 kobolds that had a tank and a dragon
• Norin was given a pistol, and was offered a chance to shoot the BBEG if a coin came up tails. (It ws a trick coin that only came up heads.) Before I could flip the coin he shot himself. The gun was full of confetti, but it still shocked everyone at the table.
• Norin has most recently caught a Raiment (haunted dress) and stuffed it in his Bag of Holding.
• Norin came under the effects of a Reverse Gravity spell. He had the opportunity to grab a tree branch and rescue himself, but decided Chaos wanted him to fly. The sorceress rescued him with Feather Fall.
• Norin (all these things start with Norin) will randomly drop a caltrop wherever he goes.
• Norin and the sorceress (Kitty) once broke up a wedding, just so they could get a tailor to focus on one of their garments.
• While transformed into a toad, Norin leapt into a villain's mouth. (To be fair, he thought he had a super croak. He did, but only once per day, but he had already used it.)
• Norin thinks he's turning into a Slaad, and he very well might be right. The rest of the party is cool with this.
• Norin has launched children tens of feet into the air with a see-saw, and also got a child drunk.

Yeah, this party (specifically Norin) is NUTS.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

Not true - if your opponents do multiple things that provoke, you can attack them for each provoking action. Movement just happens to have a specific clause that moving multiple squares within a threatened area only counts for one opportunity. (I don't think Thicket of Blades over-rules this, but I can see an argument for saying it does. Its main benefit is preventing enemies from trying to maneuver around you with assorted 'this kind of movement doesn't provoke' clauses.)

Okay, so if (for example) a paladin were to move through his threatened squares, he only provokes 1 AoO. But if he were to move through multiple squares, stop, then attempted to cast a spell, he'd provoke 2 AoO?

[A_Gray_Phantom]

There are quite a few stances that are made for movement, and have that duration, so this is incorrect.

This is the correct ruling:



So it's basically duration: until you're unconscious.

Thank you.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

"Infinite" is a strong word. Does he have the epic feat Improved Combat Reflexes? No? Then he's limited to his normal opportunity attacks in a round. That's three, maybe four a round, if he has Combat Reflexes—and remember, only one attack per opportunity, so a single action from an enemy doesn't let you unload all your AoOs at once.

Thank you for clarifying this

[SirNibbles]

[/B] Moreover, each target may still only ever provoke one Attack of Opportunity per round, whether or not that Attack lands. (Though if you choose not to take an AoO against a target, you can choose to take one if it is provoked again in the same round.)

False.

"Some abilities allow you to make more than one attack of opportunity per round. Most such abilities, unless they say otherwise, don’t let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity. If the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, however, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity." - Rules Compendium, page 19

While it's true that a single movement out of an area threatened by an opponent, regardless of how many threatened squares you move out of, presents only a single opportunity from that opponent, you can still provoke more than one per round from the same opponent. Also, a single action by a target can provoke AoOs from multiple enemies.

[MisterKaws]

Okay, so if (for example) a paladin were to move through his threatened squares, he only provokes 1 AoO. But if he were to move through multiple squares, stop, then attempted to cast a spell, he'd provoke 2 AoO?

Yes, that's how it works. It's what makes Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike(or both at once if the DM considers attacking and hitting as two different sources for AoOs) builds work. They just trade hits 1:1 and kill the target first by relying on higher damage, usually coming from some multiplier, like the Scout's Riposte or the Monk/Fighter ACFs which let you double all damage dealt for a round.

[KillianHawkeye]

Minor note: the Combat Reflexes feat grants additional chances to take AoOs within a single round, so the limit is equal to 1 + their Dex mod (not just their Dex mod) if they have that feat.

Looks like everyone covered all the other important rules bits.

[Mr Adventurer]

Since the new opportunities for AoO are only for movement, you could also use teleporting enemies that don't move in traditional ways. Especially in the PHB2 for example there are a number of tactical teleportation spells at relatively low levels, or spells a mage could cast to rearrange his friends.

[Crake]

Some actions can actually provoke twice, my favourite example being casting a ray spell, once for casting, another for performing a ranged attack.

[MisterKaws]

Since the new opportunities for AoO are only for movement, you could also use teleporting enemies that don't move in traditional ways. Especially in the PHB2 for example there are a number of tactical teleportation spells at relatively low levels, or spells a mage could cast to rearrange his friends.

Make every single humanoid a Were-Argent Spider. The fluff reasoning? Maybe Lloth started invading the Prime Material.

[Promethean]

I'm pretty sure remembering the AOO limits is the key, 1 or 1+dex mod with combat reflexes AOO in a given round. Opponents Can provoke more than one AOO per turn though, as pointed out by some of the above posts.

I don't recommend suddenly throwing a lot of enemies immune to AOO at the party though, it'll make the player's build useless in combat and unnecessarily frustrate them after they spent their resources making it. Let the Combat master be a combat master and challenge the party from other angles, like socially, enemies using resource limits against them, or large numbers of lower CR enemies if it's more of a combat focused campaign.

Don't punish a player for having fun wrong.

[SirNibbles]

He's using a glaive, so that gives him a darn good reach, and the mage in our party likes to enlarge him, thus extending his reach even more.

"A glaive has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe." - SRD

Don't forget that he can't attack adjacent opponents with a reach weapon such as a Glaive without the proper feats- see Shorten Grip from Dragon Compendium, page 108. So if they get right up in his business, he can't hit enemies at all.

[zergling.exe]

"A glaive has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe." - SRD

Don't forget that he can't attack adjacent opponents with a reach weapon such as a Glaive without the proper feats- see Shorten Grip from Dragon Compendium, page 108. So if they get right up in his business, he can't hit enemies at all.

Don't forget that if they are enlarged to large size, they can't attack anything within 10 feet of them either.

[SirNibbles]

Don't forget that if they are enlarged to large size, they can't attack anything within 10 feet of them either.

Good point.

"A Large wielder wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away." - Rules Compendium, page 150

Another rule for the 'New players and DMs' thread.

[Elkad]

"A glaive has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe." - SRD

Don't forget that he can't attack adjacent opponents with a reach weapon such as a Glaive without the proper feats- see Shorten Grip from Dragon Compendium, page 108. So if they get right up in his business, he can't hit enemies at all.

Don't forget that if they are enlarged to large size, they can't attack anything within 10 feet of them either.

Sure, but it's trivial to have a gauntlet or armor spikes for people who get inside your guard. You just give up a bit of damage.

[Troacctid]

Something as simple as spiked armor plugs that hole.

[SirNibbles]

Sure, but it's trivial to have a gauntlet or armor spikes for people who get inside your guard. You just give up a bit of damage.

Something as simple as spiked armor plugs that hole.

Right but based on the info we have it looks like this player is just running a Glaive and both the player and DM are unaware of the rules.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

All this info is very helpful. I'll be sure to mention that.

Jace, Norin's player, does seem to understand the reach rules, but I'll bring it up still.

Thanks again, everyone <3