Bardic Music

[Stryyke]

Do you need to spend a standard action each round to keep up Inspire Courage?

[WhamBamSam]

Yes, unless you have something like the Greater Harmonize spell, which lets you use a move action to maintain concentration instead, or a Harmonizing weapon, which will maintain the music for you for 10 rounds.

That said, Inspire Courage lasts for 5 rounds after you finish playing, which is longer than most combats, so in practice you can usually just turn it on and act normally thereafter.

[DrMotives]

Yes, although the duration is as long as the bard maintains it, plus 5 rounds after the bard stops performing.

[Eragon]

No, inspire courage doesn't require concentration because in the paragraph it isn't mentioned that it needs it, while for other songs, like fascinate, it's explicitly stated.

As a matter of fact in a lot of posts and handbooks about bard optimization it is said that you should use your voice (sing or oratory) to perform, in this way your hands are free and you can attack or cast spells (if you have melodic casting).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability."

Fascinate and Inspire Competence are the only two bardic music abilities that make any mention whatsoever of concentrating. Inspire Courage doesn't say you need to maintain concentration, so you automatically don't need to. Inspire Courage lasts "for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter." Singing is equivalent to speaking which is a free action, if you're singing a song you've sung hundreds of times it doesn't require any concentration or even any thought to continue doing so while you do something else.

[Stryyke]

Ok. Odo made his argument, as weak as it is, so we need some clarification. Here's the the sentence in question:


"The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter."


- I'm claiming that that sentence makes it clear that the effect can be continued round after round, and that means concentration.

- Odo is claiming that because it never says the word "concentration" it doesn't count.



And final consideration, the DM already ruled that it means concentration is required.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok. Odo made his argument, as weak as it is, so we need some clarification. Here's the the sentence in question:


"The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter."


- I'm claiming that that sentence makes it clear that the effect can be continued round after round, and that means concentration.

- Odo is claiming that because it never says the word "concentration" it doesn't count.



And final consideration, the DM already ruled that it means concentration is required.

Your DM is wrong.

Per what I quoted/linked, it's only a standard action to start a bardic music ability, and it specifies that only some bardic music abilities require concentration.

Talking is a free action, and you only need to continue singing to maintain inspire courage.

The only bardic music abilities that say anything about concentration are Fascinate and Inspire Competence. Those specifically say you need to maintain concentration, whereas Inspire Courage says nothing about that.


If your DM insists on being wrong, take the Swift Concentration skill trick in CS (requires 9th+ level). That allows you to maintain concentration as a swift action, and it should apply to one entire inspire courage use per encounter.

[Stryyke]

Your DM is wrong.

Per what I quoted/linked, it's only a standard action to start a bardic music ability, and it specifies that only some bardic music abilities require concentration.

Talking is a free action, and you only need to continue singing to maintain inspire courage.

The only bardic music abilities that say anything about concentration are Fascinate and Inspire Competence. Those specifically say you need to maintain concentration, whereas Inspire Courage says nothing about that.


If your DM insists on being wrong, take the Swift Concentration skill trick in CS (requires 9th+ level). That allows you to maintain concentration as a swift action, and it should apply to one entire inspire courage use per encounter.

Yes Odo. I know you think that. But your primary mistake is that a GM can never be wrong in a game they are running. They can choose to accede if they feel your argument has merit, but their rule is law. If they say it, it's right by default.

But we are here to determine if it's RAW or RAI.

P.S. Your continued subversion of the game in question is not appreciated. Stop trying to get away with things.

[Gallowglass]

Yes Odo. I know you think that. But your primary mistake is that a GM can never be wrong in a game they are running. They can choose to accede if they feel your argument has merit, but their rule is law. If they say it, it's right by default.

But we are here to determine if it's RAW or RAI.

P.S. Your continued subversion of the game in question is not appreciated. Stop trying to get away with things.

As far as I can tell, the other poster is trying to discuss RAW/RAI. By saying your DM is "wrong" they mean "not following the rules as written OR intended".

Now from your response and tone you obviously have some ongoing feud or disagreement or just dislike of the other poster, which I have no desire to get involved in.

But they are correct. The <b> some </b> Bardic inspirations that require using standard actions round after round to maintain them through "concentration" are Fascinate and Inspire Competence.

Inspire Courage does not mention concentration because you don't need to use concentration. Now, if you choose to do it through an instrument rather than singing, you can easily argue that "playing your violin" is a standard action. Singing is not.

How useless would a bard be if they had to spend the entire combat maintaining concentration to give everyone else a +2 bonus and not be able to do anything themselves? Do you read Order of the Stick? Do you notice how Elan consistently fights WHILE singing to inspire courage in the rest of the team?

The relevant text has already been posted. You can choose to ignore it if you like.

[Deadline]

Uh, this has never been a point of contention I've ever seen. Bardic Music can be continued, without needing concentration, because it doesn't say it needs concentration (the Bardic Music rules explicitly call out the songs that do require it, and Inspire Courage isn't one of them). I'm pretty sure RAW, that the DM in this instance is wrong. They are, of course, free to rule however they please for their game. In a game like that, I'd burn a feat on Lingering Song, and maybe pick up a level in Warblade so I could get Song of the White Raven. Then I wouldn't need any standard actions to do Inspire Courage.

Heck, I'm pretty certain there are numerous magic items and even some feats that won't work if Inspire Courage required a standard action to concentrate on them. I'll do some book diving later this evening when I've got access to my books.

[Stryyke]

As far as I can tell, the other poster is trying to discuss RAW/RAI. By saying your DM is "wrong" they mean "not following the rules as written OR intended".

Now from your response and tone you obviously have some ongoing feud or disagreement or just dislike of the other poster, which I have no desire to get involved in.

But they are correct. The <b> some </b> Bardic inspirations that require using standard actions round after round to maintain them through "concentration" are Fascinate and Inspire Competence.

Inspire Courage does not mention concentration because you don't need to use concentration. Now, if you choose to do it through an instrument rather than singing, you can easily argue that "playing your violin" is a standard action. Singing is not.

How useless would a bard be if they had to spend the entire combat maintaining concentration to give everyone else a +2 bonus and not be able to do anything themselves? Do you read Order of the Stick? Do you notice how Elan consistently fights WHILE singing to inspire courage in the rest of the team?

The relevant text has already been posted. You can choose to ignore it if you like.

While I don't appreciate your tone trolling, thank you for your input. I am indeed just trying to figure out if it's RAW or RAI.

Honestly it never even occurred to me that it wouldn't be a standard action. In this thread already, if you take out Odo and myself, there is disagreement. I would like you to consider that it isn't as clear as you make it out to be, even as I do the same.

But I do appreciate your views.

[Deadline]

So, I after a little thinking and internet searching, I'm pretty sure the Melodic Casting feat flies right in the face of this (note that it doesn't give you an extra action to cast with, and the feat itself notes that songs which require a standard action to continue still do so). Also, which Bardic songs does the DM think don't require standard action concentration? The Bardic Music rules are very clear that some songs do require concentration, and those songs will specify if they do. Compare Inspire Courage to Inspire Competence for the wording.

Also, I think the Crystal Echoblade doesn't work (or works poorly) with the interpretation that IC requires concentration.

There's apparently a FAQ ruling that specifies that continuing IC doesn't require an action, can't get to the FAQs right now from where I'm at to confirm though. Can anyone dig up that FAQ?

Edit - The FAQ might not be a thing allowed by the GM, but it can help speak to RAI.

[Stryyke]

So, I after a little thinking and internet searching, I'm pretty sure the Melodic Casting feat flies right in the face of this (note that it doesn't give you an extra action to cast with, and the feat itself notes that songs which require a standard action to continue still do so). Also, which Bardic songs does the DM think don't require standard action concentration? The Bardic Music rules are very clear that some songs do require concentration, and those songs will specify if they do. Compare Inspire Courage to Inspire Competence for the wording.

Also, I think the Crystal Echoblade doesn't work (or works poorly) with the interpretation that IC requires concentration.

There's apparently a FAQ ruling that specifies that continuing IC doesn't require an action, can't get to the FAQs right now from where I'm at to confirm though. Can anyone dig up that FAQ?

Edit - The FAQ might not be a thing allowed by the GM, but it can help speak to RAI.

From my reading, the two suggestion abilities, and the Song of Freedom don't require concentration. So that covers the "some" argument.

As for Melodic Casting, the third line reads: "In addition, you can cast spells and activate magic items by command word or spell completion while using a bardic music ability." Doesn't that imply that you couldn't have done those things before?

[JNAProductions]

Do you need to spend a standard action each round to keep up Inspire Courage?

In a word? No. It doesn't require Concentration, just that you keep performing.

[Stryyke]

In a word? No. It doesn't require Concentration, just that you keep performing.

Don't most skills require a standard action, or longer, to perform in combat? If you were playing a lute, are you claiming you could play the lute, make a full move, and attack in the same round?

[JNAProductions]

Don't most skills require a standard action, or longer, to perform in combat? If you were playing a lute, are you claiming you could play the lute, make a full move, and attack in the same round?

No-but not because you need a standard action to perform.

You couldn't make an attack (or at least not an effective one) because your hands are full of lute. If you were singing, you could do it.

[Gallowglass]

Interestingly enough....

I had a bard whose preferred instrument was a violin (well, fiddle really). In the early days when my job was basically to inspire courage, i really wanted to be able to use my standard action for something other than playing my violin. And didn't want to default to singing like every other bard.

So I worked with my DM and we made a custom rapier that has the violin bow on the back end of the narrow rapier blade. So I would fiddle away with my rapier bow, then lash out with rapier attacks.

Now, this is certainly now RAW, but it was a cute little bit of engineering that had no appreciable effect on the usefulness of the character. Other than the fact that I had more ranks in perform (strings) than perform( singing) which gave me different swapped out skills once I got to the level where you swap out your perform check for other skills. Big whoop.

[Stryyke]

No-but not because you need a standard action to perform.

You couldn't make an attack (or at least not an effective one) because your hands are full of lute. If you were singing, you could do it.

Ok. So I think this is where the RAW and RAI come into conflict, on this. I think it's unlikely they would balance a core ability so that an RP choice would have such a significant impact on the effectiveness of the class. By choosing an instrument over voice, you are handicapping the bard significantly. I believe that this means that the Rules as Intended were such that whether you hold an instrument or not is irrelevant. And if you can't take your standard action because of the lute, balance demands that it carry over to voice as well.

As for skills, which skills can you do that doesn't take at least a standard action in combat?

[Trebloc]

What about feats like Song of the White Raven that change the activation cost of Inspire Courage? In this case it is from a Standard to a Swift action. What action is it then to "concentrate" on Inspire Courage?

[Gallowglass]

What about feats like Song of the White Raven that change the activation cost of Inspire Courage? In this case it is from a Standard to a Swift action. What action is it then to "concentrate" on Inspire Courage?

I suppose this DM would rule that you are only changing the activation to a swift action, but the concentration still requires a standard.

So yeah.... you get that bonus attack on the first round! hooray.

[Stryyke]

What about feats like Song of the White Raven that change the activation cost of Inspire Courage? In this case it is from a Standard to a Swift action. What action is it then to "concentrate" on Inspire Courage?

As for Song of the White Raven, there's a reason that so many GMs forbid use of the Tomb of Battle. Many of the abilities in that book are unbalanced, and don't maintain internal consistency.

But that aside, I don't see how the onset of effect necessarily has any bearing on upkeep. Just because you can get your lute out faster, and begin strumming more quickly doesn't mean the song is in double time, right?

[JNAProductions]

As for Song of the White Raven, there's a reason that so many GMs forbid use of the Tomb of Battle. Many of the abilities in that book are unbalanced, and don't maintain internal consistency.

But that aside, I don't see how the onset of effect necessarily has any bearing on upkeep. Just because you can get your lute out faster, and begin strumming more quickly doesn't mean the song is in double time, right?

You know the worst offenders of the bolded bit?

The core books.

[Stryyke]

You know the worst offenders of the bolded bit?

The core books.

LOL I guess I can't really argue that point!

[Deadline]

From my reading, the two suggestion abilities, and the Song of Freedom don't require concentration. So that covers the "some" argument.

Suggestion is an extension of Fascinate, which requires concentration.

Using this ability does not break the bard's concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect. Making a suggestion doesn't count against a bard's daily limit on bardic music performances.

Song of Freedom specifically calls out requiring concentration.

Using this ability requires 1 minute of uninterrupted concentration and music, and it functions on a single target within 30 feet.

The songs that require concentration call it out explicitly.

As for Melodic Casting, the third line reads: "In addition, you can cast spells and activate magic items by command word or spell completion while using a bardic music ability." Doesn't that imply that you couldn't have done those things before?

Yes, but that's in the Bardic Music ability in the PHB itself:

Even while using bardic music that doesn't require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands).

And since we are delving into the wording in the PHB, Countersong, Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics are all the songs that don't require concentration to maintain (because all other songs explicitly require concentration).

Edit - As to the type of action required to use the Perform skill, I believe it's one of the skills that lists action type as "Varies". Which is unhelpful to say the least.

[Stryyke]

Suggestion is an extension of Fascinate, which requires concentration.



Song of Freedom specifically calls out requiring concentration.



The songs that require concentration call it out explicitly.



Yes, but that's in the Bardic Music ability in the PHB itself:



And since we are delving into the wording in the PHB, Countersong, Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics are all the songs that don't require concentration to maintain (because all other songs explicitly require concentration).

I have no arguments about most of those, but we are talking about concentration after the onset of the effect. Song of freedom takes effect after 1 minute of concentration. That's a casting time, not a duration.

[Deadline]

I have no arguments about most of those, but we are talking about concentration after the onset of the effect. Song of freedom takes effect after 1 minute of concentration. That's a casting time, not a duration.

Right, but that one doesn't appear to have a duration (it takes a minute to "cast it" to produce a Break Enchantment effect). So the entire time you are using it, it requires concentration. The other songs have a duration listed. That said, I'm not sure how it applies to the discussion about Inspire Courage.

[Stryyke]

Right, but that one doesn't appear to have a duration (it takes a minute to "cast it" to produce a Break Enchantment effect). So the entire time you are using it, it requires concentration. The other songs have a duration listed. That said, I'm not sure how it applies to the discussion about Inspire Courage.

Because Song of Freedom has a discreet effect. At the end of the song, it's effect happens, and that's it. With Inspire Courage we are discussing maintaining an effect, which isn't relevant to Song of Freedom.

[Deadline]

Because Song of Freedom has a discreet effect. At the end of the song, it's effect happens, and that's it. With Inspire Courage we are discussing maintaining an effect, which isn't relevant to Song of Freedom.

Agreed? I ... I wasn't the one who brought it up.

If you are claiming that it is one of the songs that don't require concentration, I'd contest that as it explicitly does. Yes, it doesn't require it to maintain the effect, but it definitely requires concentration.

That said, you mentioned that you didn't have arguments with "most of those", does that mean you are now on board with the "Inspire Courage doesn't require concentration to maintain" argument?

Edit - I've got a link to a page of FAQ's from the archived Wizard's site, but can't get to it right now. Can someone else take a look to see if this is asked and answered there? http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/er/20070731a

[Stryyke]

Agreed? I ... I wasn't the one who brought it up.

If you are claiming that it is one of the songs that don't require concentration, I'd contest that as it explicitly does. Yes, it doesn't require it to maintain the effect, but it definitely requires concentration.

That said, you mentioned that you didn't have arguments with "most of those", does that mean you are now on board with the "Inspire Courage doesn't require concentration to maintain" argument?

Edit - I've got a link to a page of FAQ's from the archived Wizard's site, but can't get to it right now. Can someone else take a look to see if this is asked and answered there? http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/er/20070731a

No I'm actually not on board with the premise that maintaining Inspire Courage is a free action. I think I sort of explained in a previous post where I think it's RAI. Though I would still argue it's RAW as well, I understand the counter argument better now. If you ask me, I think people who split hairs that far are people who would try anything to get an advantage. I disapprove of bending rules to gain a mechanical advantage, especially in an RP focused, low optimization game.

[Deadline]

I was able to get to this FAQ for the Inspire Courage ability, although it's for Pathfinder, not 3.5. I can't access the 3.5 FAQ's from the machine I'm at until this evening.