OOTS #1170 - The Discussion Thread

[blunk]

What just happened?

Somebody set up us the bomb.

[Eve]

Plus it takes more than one to play the game. Thor, Hel(l), all the other gods that could have the right to a dwarf soul, they agreed to go along the bet.

Did they? I was thinking that since Odin got made stupid by the last world, during the break between worlds they let Thor take over Odin's pantheon leader duties, and that's what gave Thor the authority to make that bet for all those souls.

[t209]

Part of me thinks that Thor was distracting her.

[Serialkillerwha]

Who want to bet somewhere within Thor's folder or Loki's cabinet was a file that referred to all cases of snarl-related death and whether or not they counted as honorable?

[Breccia]

Somebody set up us the bomb.

What you say?

Also, it speaks highly of a deity/god's ability to directly smite when Hel is 100% confident she can kill a max-level cleric, armed with multiple heal spells, with a heart attack. And a dwarf, no less. I forget sometimes how little of a deity's power is actually delegated to mortals via spells, and how much they retain when stuff needs to happen via direct action.

[Fyraltari]

Who want to bet somewhere within Thor's folder or Loki's cabinet was a file that referred to all cases of snarl-related death and whether or not they counted as honorable?

What for? These souls are gone. And there was no Bet in the previous worlds.

[ijuinkun]

No one else has mentioned it, so I'll just say that Millidren's little "Wheeee!" as she jumps off Thor's hand is adorable.

I would think that she is elated at being unexpectedly freed from Hel. The crowd in the penultimate panel (of which only a handful are visible of the presumably several thousand dwarves who had been taken by Hel in the past year) seem to express the same sentiment.

[Kardwill]

Who want to bet somewhere within Thor's folder or Loki's cabinet was a file that referred to all cases of snarl-related death and whether or not they counted as honorable?

If I remember correctly, the dwarf from the crayon guild got killed by the snarl, less than 100 years ago. But since the snarl eats/steals souls, he won't come up in those negociations (no soul to trade back. And he died fighting to protect his friends, so his soul would have escaped Hel if it still existed)

[KorvinStarmast]

If I remember correctly, the dwarf from the crayon guild got killed by the snarl, less than 100 years ago. But since the snarl eats/steals souls, he won't come up in those negociations (no soul to trade back. And he died fighting to protect his friends, so his soul would have escaped Hel if it still existed)

Kraggor, from the Order of the Scribble?

[Bacon Elemental]

What for? These souls are gone. And there was no Bet in the previous worlds.

I assume the implication is that they think thor/loki would try to trick Hel into pre-emptively declaring those killed to stop the snarl from destroying them as Honorable?

[Riftwolf]

What you say?

Also, it speaks highly of a deity/god's ability to directly smite when Hel is 100% confident she can kill a max-level cleric, armed with multiple heal spells, with a heart attack. And a dwarf, no less. I forget sometimes how little of a deity's power is actually delegated to mortals via spells, and how much they retain when stuff needs to happen via direct action.

Would you be able to cast Heal during a heart attack? That feels like it'd give the staggered condition at best (ignoring that 'things that cause hit point damage' and 'things that kill you' aren't always the same thing)
Also Durkon isn't max-level, D&D has no level cap. He's upper mid-level after his two deaths.

I assume the implication is that they think thor/loki would try to trick Hel into pre-emptively declaring those killed to stop the snarl from destroying them as Honorable?

I think that's what the other guy was getting at.

[GregTD]

Did they? I was thinking that since Odin got made stupid by the last world, during the break between worlds they let Thor take over Odin's pantheon leader duties, and that's what gave Thor the authority to make that bet for all those souls.

Something that no one seems to have addressed:

1: It appears we all agree that it really sucks to go to Hel's domain, vs. any of the other Gods' domains
2: It appears that far fewer souls are going to Hel because of this agreement

So, from the mortal perspective, this deal sucks, and totally screws over Dwarven society.

From the Immortal perspective? There's a lot fewer souls spending an eternity in Hel. On net, I think they're justified in considering that a win.

[GregTD]

Hel trusted her father, a LITERAL TRICKSTER GOD, to be playing a dirty Trick on a drunk and distracted Thor that would make HIM suffer to HER advantage. So no, that doesn't mean she "didn't think she was tricking anyone". She just didn't think SHE'D get the dirty end of the deal.

When playing the age old game of "who's the Rube", one must always remember that you might be the "Rube".

[Schroeswald]

Something that no one seems to have addressed:

1: It appears we all agree that it really sucks to go to Hel's domain, vs. any of the other Gods' domains
2: It appears that far fewer souls are going to Hel because of this agreement

So, from the mortal perspective, this deal sucks, and totally screws over Dwarven society.

From the Immortal perspective? There's a lot fewer souls spending an eternity in Hel. On net, I think they're justified in considering that a win.

She’s had non vampire clerics in previous worlds, presumably those people have a reason to support her so maybe on the whole less people go to her but the afterlives of those who go there might be worse.

[Serialkillerwha]

Honestly on the subject of Hel I think Loki was originally trying to teach her a lesson about the value of Priests. Thor, through his priests, told the Dwarves of the deal and through his priests, helped set up their honorable society. That's the point. Because Priests are how you influence mortals.

Hel never figured this out and really only obsessed with the fact that she felt screwed over and how to "win" this bet. In

I assume the implication is that they think thor/loki would try to trick Hel into pre-emptively declaring those killed to stop the snarl from destroying them as Honorable?

Yeah. Which would shoot Hel's entire plan in the foot.

On a more likely note since it won't render the Order's part moot, I'm thinking they're planning to dispute enough souls that if Hel just says "take them and leave" she won't have enough to really win the influence she wanted over the next world, meaning she'd have to argue them.

[GregTD]

She’s had non vampire clerics in previous worlds, presumably those people have a reason to support her so maybe on the whole less people go to her but the afterlives of those who go there might be worse.

Hel lamented that she no longer had clerics getting people to thank Hel for the fact that they didn't die, even though she had nothing to do with their survival.

It's just not fair that you don't get the worship that you never deserved anymore

[D.One]

Hel lamented that she no longer had clerics getting people to thank Hel for the fact that they didn't die, even though she had nothing to do with their survival.

It's just not fair that you don't get the worship that you never deserved anymore

In both RL old mythos and Fantasy mythos, two kinds of death gods usually stand out: the evil "pray I don't get to you" kind, like Hel seems to be, and the mysterious and impartial "judge of the dead" kind (like, for example Anubis).

[Crusher]

Part of me thinks that Thor was distracting her.

I'd bet the rest of you thinks that, too.

[georgie_leech]

In both RL old mythos and Fantasy mythos, two kinds of death gods usually stand out: the evil "pray I don't get to you" kind, like Hel seems to be, and the mysterious and impartial "judge of the dead" kind (like, for example Anubis).

There's also the psychopomps, the "I didn't kill you or anything but it's my job to get you to the actual afterlife (whatever that is in our mythos)." A sort of spiritual guide or escort to where any judging or sorting happens.

[Peelee]

I'd bet the rest of you thinks that, too.

That's most of the way to a Mitch Hedberg joke there.

[D.One]

Tiny detail that I didn't see being brought up: (and didn't bother to look all the pages to see if it was brought up :-p )

Clan Cobalt representative seems to be in his first council, since he gets surprised by Summon Proxy.

[danielxcutter]

I think Loki made the Bet because then, he had no reason to think this world would have a purple quiddity. It would have only lasted for a couple thousand years, not the rest of eternity.

[Peelee]

I think Loki made the Bet because then, he had no reason to think this world would have a purple quiddity. It would have only lasted for a couple thousand years, not the rest of eternity.

Which brings up a good point. Regardless of how or when the world ended, so long as it wasn't the Snarl devouring everyone, Hel would get a massive influx of souls. Her current scheme is the default ending for the world, she's just trying to get it sooner rather than later.

So... was Loki trying to set it up for Hel to become queen of the Northern Pantheon in any event?

[Fyraltari]

Which brings up a good point. Regardless of how or when the world ended, so long as it wasn't the Snarl devouring everyone, Hel would get a massive influx of souls. Her current scheme is the default ending for the world, she's just trying to get it sooner rather than later.

So... was Loki trying to set it up for Hel to become queen of the Northern Pantheon in any event?

Loki is trying to get the Gods to wait until the last possible minute to try to save everybody.

Also, Loki: not great with foresight.

[Dion]

Loki: not great with foresight.

This deserves repeating.

[Schroeswald]

Which brings up a good point. Regardless of how or when the world ended, so long as it wasn't the Snarl devouring everyone, Hel would get a massive influx of souls. Her current scheme is the default ending for the world, she's just trying to get it sooner rather than later.

So... was Loki trying to set it up for Hel to become queen of the Northern Pantheon in any event?

Loki is trying to get the Gods to wait until the last possible minute to try to save everybody.

I just came up with a few very bad ideas (not meaning I don't think its true, but it worries me if it is) based on this, It'll probably not actually come together but some of these ideas are probably true. Loki is trying to manipulate Hel to give him more souls if the world ends, IDK how (but likely true). Another thing is that maybe he is working with TDO still and that's why he supports keeping the world, making sure that the Dark One and Redcloak get all the chances to manipulate the other gods, placing him on the top of the pyramid. Another unconnected idea is what if he wants this world to end, I have no clue why or how but that also popped into my brain so I'm including it.

[Dion]

I really don’t think Loki has a plan.

Watson would say that traditionally, Loki is extraordinarily good at talking people into extraordinarily bad ideas. But his bad ideas are actually bad ideas. His cleverness doesn’t seem to benefit him.

Doyle would say that the story isn’t about Loki and the rest of the gods. The story about saving the world, and although the gods are obviously going to take some interest in the fate of the world, that doesn’t mean the story needs to take much interest in the fate of the gods.

[Schroeswald]

I really don’t think Loki has a plan.

Watson would say that traditionally, Loki is extraordinarily good at talking people into extraordinarily bad ideas. But his bad ideas are actually bad ideas. His cleverness doesn’t seem to benefit him.

Doyle would say that the story isn’t about Loki and the rest of the gods. The story about saving the world, and although the gods are obviously going to take some interest in the fate of the world, that doesn’t mean the story needs to take much interest in the fate of the gods.

I mean, Hel's the bad guy of this book, but if my jumble of theories/ideas is correct than it would be because Loki is manipulating her and is the real big bad of the book (it would also make Hilgya more important).

[PracticalM]

There's a line from The Vor Game, by Lois McMaster Bujold: "The key of strategy... is not to choose a path to victory, but to choose so that all paths lead to a victory."

Thor's read this book, I think. :)

The trope is called the Xanatos Gambit from the Gargoyle's TV show. I would have thought it was from something even earlier than that but <shrug>
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../XanatosGambit

[KorvinStarmast]

Another unconnected idea is what if he wants this world to end, I have no clue why or how but that also popped into my brain so I'm including it.

If he wanted the world to end, he'd have voted that way at the godsmoot. He was one of the one's who voted against the world ending.

Let's give these entertaining little buggers one more chance to clean up this mess before we do it for them. In summary: Vote Loki 2016